Alma 33 and Searching the Scriptures

[Risingtide]

In Alma 33, Alma urges the outcast Zoramites to search the scriptures in order to see they need not the Zoramite worship services in order to worship God. It's widely believed that literacy in the world at this time was very rare, and especially rare with the poor, and personal copies of scripture would be even more rare. How could a person search the scriptures if they had no access to scriptures and if they lacked the ability to read? In researching literacy rates of jews at the time of Christ I'm seeing sub one percent to 3 percent by those who study the subject. This question may have been brought up in the past on this board. Can you help me made sense of this? I guess we could speculate that the Nephite/Zoramites were unusually advanced in literacy for a people at this time in history, and these societies dedicated an unusual amount of labor and resources to copying scripture so it was widely available.

 

[The Nehor]

Copying a whole Bible (Old and New Testament) with the abilities of the medieval world took is estimated to take one scribe 12 to 18 months. They didn’t usually do the whole thing though. More often they wrote out individual books.

And yeah, there is likely no way a bunch of Nephites were mass producing scripture so that the impoverished could have them. Maybe Alma was a naive idiot? Like a wealthy person dealing with someone struggling to make childcare work might suggest just hiring a nanny. Bing. Bong. So simple.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Risingtide said:

In Alma 33, Alma urges the outcast Zoramites to search the scriptures in order to see they need not the Zoramite worship services in order to worship God. It's widely believed that literacy in the world at this time was very rare, and especially rare with the poor, and personal copies of scripture would be even more rare. How could a person search the scriptures if they had no access to scriptures and if they lacked the ability to read? In researching literacy rates of jews at the time of Christ I'm seeing sub one percent to 3 percent by those who study the subject. This question may have been brought up in the past on this board. Can you help me made sense of this? I guess we could speculate that the Nephite/Zoramites were unusually advanced in literacy for a people at this time in history, and these societies dedicated an unusual amount of labor and resources to copying scripture so it was widely available.

 

They were probably about as literate as the Jews at the time of Christ (or before). 

Alma said they “ought to search the scriptures,” which in their circumstances is as much a turn of phrase and not a literal duty they could carry out. But they could search by remembering what they had read or had read to them before (e.g., verse 3).

It would seem that prior to being cast out of their synagogues (which also served as repositories where scriptures would be kept, the Aron Kodesh), they might have had opportunity to read them (verse 14), but certainly had them read to them as part of the Sabbath worship service.

The Zoramites had dissented from the Nephites, and while they had perverted their ways of worship by the time they used the bimah (Hebrew "platform" or "stage"/almemar Hebrew "pulpit", the central point in synagogues; it serves as a central point for leading worship services and, most importantly, for the public reading of the Torah) as the "Rameumptom" ("holy stand") described in Chapter 31, we do not know whether or how long they had abandoned the scripture readings or how long the poor had been made poor. It does help to know somewhat of the traditions that have been a part of synagogue worship "forever."

Such was the influence of the poor that it destroyed the craft of the more popular part of the community, which is interesting (Ch. 35: 2 - 3), but probably due to convert dissenters from them joining alliance with the Nephites (the rest of the chapter). Those who had been cast out certainly had the scriptures available to them among the Nephites and they could follow up on their studies and learning in bona fide synagogues.

 

Edited August 12, 2025 by CV75

[teddyaware]

40 minutes ago, CV75 said:

They were probably about as literate as the Jews at the time of Christ (or Ezra). 

Alma said they “ought to search the scriptures,” which n their circumstances is as much a turn of phrase and not a literal duty they could carry out. But they could search by remembering what they had read or had read to them before (e.g., verse 3).

It would seem that prior to being cast out of their synagogues (which also served as repositories where scriptures would be kept, the Aron Kodesh), they might have had opportunity to read them (verse 14), but certainly had them read to them as part of the Sabbath worship service.

The Zoramites had dissented from the Nephites, and while the had perverted their ways of worship by the time they used the bimah (they called it a Rameumptum; in Hebrew this means "platform" or "stage" -- a holy stand) as described in Chapter 31, we do not know whether or how long they had abandoned the readings or how long the poor had been made poor.

 

It appears that you didn’t consider the following verses from the Book of Mormon when formulating your response. And please note that if the mostly apostate Zoramites had in their possession scriptural records that could be consumed by fire, how much more likely is it that the righteous and faithful among the Nephites also had scriptural records of their own that they studied, cherished and protected? It appears the Nephites developed a means that allowed for a fairly widespread dissemination of portions of holy scripture. 

6 And it came to pass that Zeezrom was astonished at the words which had been spoken; and he also knew concerning the blindness of the minds, which he had caused among the people by his lying words; and his soul began to be harrowed up under a consciousness of his own guilt; yea, he began to be encircled about by the pains of hell.

7 And it came to pass that he began to cry unto the people, saying: Behold, I am guilty, and these men are spotless before God. And he began to plead for them from that time forth; but they reviled him, saying: Art thou also possessed with the devil? And they spit upon him, and cast him out from among them, and also all those who believed in the words which had been spoken by Alma and Amulek; and they cast them out, and sent men to cast stones at them.

8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire. (Alma 14)

Edited August 12, 2025 by teddyaware

[Duncan]

Keep in mind they were talking about the "those scriptures which have been written by them of old" V12, so most likely they were talking about the Brass Plates, which doesn't burn and the fact that Zenos and Zenock was quoted to them and they were asked if they remember those verses, V3. it would indicate they were suppose to know who those Prophets were and what they said. it's possible someone, who was literate, read it to them on a regular basis, just like we do in our church services, people reading out loud various verses

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

it's possible someone, who was literate, read it to them on a regular basis, just like we do in our church services, people reading out loud various verses

This is what I have always assumed was going on, someone literate would read and possibly expound on scriptures they had for those who could not.

Edited August 13, 2025 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

It appears that you didn’t consider the following verses from the Book of Mormon when formulating your response. And please note that if the mostly apostate Zoramites had in their possession scriptural records that could be consumed by fire, how much more likely is it that the righteous and faithful among the Nephites also had scriptural records of their own that they studied, cherished and protected? It appears the Nephites developed a means that allowed for a fairly widespread dissemination of portions of holy scripture. 

6 And it came to pass that Zeezrom was astonished at the words which had been spoken; and he also knew concerning the blindness of the minds, which he had caused among the people by his lying words; and his soul began to be harrowed up under a consciousness of his own guilt; yea, he began to be encircled about by the pains of hell.

7 And it came to pass that he began to cry unto the people, saying: Behold, I am guilty, and these men are spotless before God. And he began to plead for them from that time forth; but they reviled him, saying: Art thou also possessed with the devil? And they spit upon him, and cast him out from among them, and also all those who believed in the words which had been spoken by Alma and Amulek; and they cast them out, and sent men to cast stones at them.

8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire. (Alma 14)

Also, there is mention of the Lamanites being taught to read and write by apostate Nephites, which helped them thrive economically.

Mosiah 24:4-7

"And he appointed teachers of the brethren of Amulon in every land which was possessed by his people; and thus the language of Nephi began to be taught among all the people of the Lamanites. 5 And they were a people friendly one with another; nevertheless they knew not God; neither did the brethren of Amulon teach them anything concerning the Lord their God, neither the law of Moses; nor did they teach them the words of Abinadi; 6 But they taught them that they should keep their record, and that they might write one to another. 7 And thus the Lamanites began to increase in riches, and began to trade one with another and wax great, and began to be a cunning and a wise people, as to the wisdom of the world, yea, a very cunning people, delighting in all manner of wickedness and plunder, except it were among their own brethren."

 

[rpn]

You'll recall that Mormon had a vision about what to include in what we call the Book of Mormon.  Perhaps it wasn't for those who heard it orally, but for us in this time?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

It appears that you didn’t consider the following verses from the Book of Mormon when formulating your response. And please note that if the mostly apostate Zoramites had in their possession scriptural records that could be consumed by fire, how much more likely is it that the righteous and faithful among the Nephites also had scriptural records of their own that they studied, cherished and protected? It appears the Nephites developed a means that allowed for a fairly widespread dissemination of portions of holy scripture. 

6 And it came to pass that Zeezrom was astonished at the words which had been spoken; and he also knew concerning the blindness of the minds, which he had caused among the people by his lying words; and his soul began to be harrowed up under a consciousness of his own guilt; yea, he began to be encircled about by the pains of hell.

7 And it came to pass that he began to cry unto the people, saying: Behold, I am guilty, and these men are spotless before God. And he began to plead for them from that time forth; but they reviled him, saying: Art thou also possessed with the devil? And they spit upon him, and cast him out from among them, and also all those who believed in the words which had been spoken by Alma and Amulek; and they cast them out, and sent men to cast stones at them.

8 And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire. (Alma 14)

I did of course, but this event you shared is not about the Zoramites in Ch. 33 but the people of [the city of] Ammoniahah in Ch 14, who were completely obliterated by the Lamanites about 3 years before Ch. 33.

Where does it say the records referred to in 14:8 were personal home copies and not from their synagogue or sanctuary (or even mikdash under their circumstances) as I described? It appears that you didn’t consider what is doesn't say  .

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Keep in mind they were talking about the "those scriptures which have been written by them of old" V12, so most likely they were talking about the Brass Plates, which doesn't burn and the fact that Zenos and Zenock was quoted to them and they were asked if they remember those verses, V3. it would indicate they were suppose to know who those Prophets were and what they said. it's possible someone, who was literate, read it to them on a regular basis, just like we do in our church services, people reading out loud various verses

This is the tradition of Sabbath worship in synagogues, which the Nephites presumably observed no matter how literate.

[CV75]

58 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Also, there is mention of the Lamanites being taught to read and write by apostate Nephites, which helped them thrive economically.

Mosiah 24:4-7

"And he appointed teachers of the brethren of Amulon in every land which was possessed by his people; and thus the language of Nephi began to be taught among all the people of the Lamanites. 5 And they were a people friendly one with another; nevertheless they knew not God; neither did the brethren of Amulon teach them anything concerning the Lord their God, neither the law of Moses; nor did they teach them the words of Abinadi; 6 But they taught them that they should keep their record, and that they might write one to another. 7 And thus the Lamanites began to increase in riches, and began to trade one with another and wax great, and began to be a cunning and a wise people, as to the wisdom of the world, yea, a very cunning people, delighting in all manner of wickedness and plunder, except it were among their own brethren."

 

Literacy does not translate into personal copies of scripture or ignoring the tradition of reading the Torah in the synagogues on the Sabbath.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

This is what I have always assumed was going on, someone literate would read and possibly expound on scriptures they had for those who could not.

Per traditional synagogue practice (Jesus did it too).

[ZealouslyStriving]

29 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Literacy does not translate into personal copies of scripture or ignoring the tradition of reading the Torah in the synagogues on the Sabbath.

How about this than?

Mosiah 2:8

"And it came to pass that he began to speak to his people from the tower; and they could not all hear his words because of the greatness of the multitude; therefore he caused that the words which he spake should be written and sent forth among those that were not under the sound of his voice, that they might also receive his words."

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

How about this than?

Mosiah 2:8

"And it came to pass that he began to speak to his people from the tower; and they could not all hear his words because of the greatness of the multitude; therefore he caused that the words which he spake should be written and sent forth among those that were not under the sound of his voice, that they might also receive his words."

If it’s like other societies, those who were sent around might be read aloud the announcements to those who could not.  I was just reading a book a couple of months ago about a Chinese magistrate and they would have bulletin boards all over the larger city.  In this case it was being used for a “wanted poster”.There would be one of the tribunal (iirc, but it might have been a different service) men stationed at each.  The magistrate gave the instruction it was supposed to be read something like once every 15 minutes or so.

The above qualifies whether they read it themselves or it’s read to them.

Edited August 13, 2025 by Calm

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

If it’s like other societies, those who were sent around might be read aloud the announcements to those who could not.  I was just reading a book a couple of months ago about a Chinese magistrate and they would have bulletin boards all over the larger city.  In this case it was being used for a “wanted poster”.There would be one of the tribunal (iirc, but it might have been a different service) men stationed at each.  The magistrate gave the instruction it was supposed to be read something like once every 15 minutes or so.

The above qualifies whether they read it themselves or it’s read to them.

If they were literate, what's to say they didn't make their own family copies of the synagogue or posted master copies? Perhaps, they had a class of scribes employed to make copies for individual use?

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

If they were literate, what's to say they didn't make their own family copies of the synagogue or posted master copies? Perhaps, they had a class of scribes employed to make copies for individual use?

Sure, but that’s a big “if” imo.  The elite, sure.  But are we talking about an elite class or the general population?

When you mean posted master copies, are you saying the same thing as I suggested as a possibility, just minus the announcer?  Everyone took turns reading the same poster at different stations, perhaps?  Say 100 people taking turns?  If so, doesn’t seem very efficient.  Seems more likely they would have an announcer even if they did leave up a bulletin for anyone who wanted to read it later.

They most likely had a class of scribes.  There would be two restrictions that seem obvious to me to limit the availability of individual copies…or most likely family scriptures, one copy per household at most.  Those restrictions are first, the time it would take to produce that many texts even if there was ‘mass production’ by a class of scribes.  Time alone would result in costly texts.  Second would be the time required to develop literacy well enough to read scripture.  Literacy makes sense to me for elites and tradesmen who would benefit in their businesses by being literate as they would more likely see it as a worthwhile investment.  Anyone else…blue collar workers so to speak, hunters and farm laborers, etc, those who might have to choose being learning to read and eating… much less likely.

Edited August 13, 2025 by Calm

[CV75]

10 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

How about this than?

Mosiah 2:8

"And it came to pass that he began to speak to his people from the tower; and they could not all hear his words because of the greatness of the multitude; therefore he caused that the words which he spake should be written and sent forth among those that were not under the sound of his voice, that they might also receive his words."

That's fine and a good thing for him to have done -- but was it sent forth as individual, personal copies or in the form of a bulletin or proclamation that was read to smaller congregations (perhaps in the synagogues by the high council  ) or posted in a few places where anyone who could read (present tense) read (past tense) it? This is not proof of widespread literacy and personal copies, but of access to and familiarity with the content of sacred prophet-king declarations and other scriptures. This case, K'riat haTorah or even "town criers" are more likely means of dissemination. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

41 minutes ago, CV75 said:

That's fine and a good thing for him to have done -- but was it sent forth as individual, personal copies or in the form of a bulletin or proclamation that was read to smaller congregations (perhaps in the synagogues by the high council  ) or posted in a few places where anyone who could read (present tense) read (past tense) it? This is not proof of widespread literacy and personal copies, but of access to and familiarity with the content of sacred prophet-king declarations and other scriptures. This case, K'riat haTorah or even "town criers" are more likely means of dissemination. 

Did they have regular worship in synagogues at that time? If I recall correctly for some reason the physical Church had disbanded prior to his kingship and was reestablished under Alma's leadership by the authority of Mosiah.

 

Edited August 13, 2025 by ZealouslyStriving

[Risingtide]

18 hours ago, CV75 said:

They were probably about as literate as the Jews at the time of Christ (or before). 

That seems to be a reasonable expectation. I agree

Alma said they “ought to search the scriptures,” which in their circumstances is as much a turn of phrase and not a literal duty they could carry out. But they could search by remembering what they had read or had read to them before (e.g., verse 3).

This is one of the more plausible explanations. I wish it did more to satisfy my concerns, It seems not to be suited to the needs of the outcast Zoramites. An urging to cast your mind back to what you heard from the reading of the prophet Zenos would make more sense.

It would seem that prior to being cast out of their synagogues (which also served as repositories where scriptures would be kept, the Aron Kodesh), they might have had opportunity to read them (verse 14), but certainly had them read to them as part of the Sabbath worship service.

The Zoramites had dissented from the Nephites, and while they had perverted their ways of worship by the time they used the bimah (Hebrew "platform" or "stage"/almemar Hebrew "pulpit", the central point in synagogues; it serves as a central point for leading worship services and, most importantly, for the public reading of the Torah) as the "Rameumptom" ("holy stand") described in Chapter 31, we do not know whether or how long they had abandoned the scripture readings or how long the poor had been made poor. It does help to know somewhat of the traditions that have been a part of synagogue worship "forever."

Such was the influence of the poor that it destroyed the craft of the more popular part of the community, which is interesting (Ch. 35: 2 - 3), but probably due to convert dissenters from them joining alliance with the Nephites (the rest of the chapter). Those who had been cast out certainly had the scriptures available to them among the Nephites and they could follow up on their studies and learning in bona fide synagogues.

My impression is that the common citizen among the Nephites would not be able to read or have a personal copy of scriptures to study with.  I may be wrong, but that seems to fit with what is commonly believed about the state of literacy and availability of scriptures in this period of history.  Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. It helps.

 

[Risingtide]

16 hours ago, rpn said:

You'll recall that Mormon had a vision about what to include in what we call the Book of Mormon.  Perhaps it wasn't for those who heard it orally, but for us in this time?

Yes, the same thought occurred to me. Thanks rpn. Maybe Alma felt compelled to urge outcast Zoramites to "search the scriptures"  for our edification, and not so much for his audience. 

[Risingtide]

It would be interesting to know if there is a consensus among the professors of anthropology at BYU about the degree of literacy in the populations of people about or before the time of Christ.

 

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

If they were literate, what's to say they didn't make their own family copies of the synagogue or posted master copies? Perhaps, they had a class of scribes employed to make copies for individual use?

Because scribing documents is a skill. Farmer Joe couldn’t just sit down and copy the scriptures. Even if he could he likely couldn’t afford the book. Even if he could do both he probably can’t afford to not work his farm for a year or more and would starve doing this.

Doing this would take a year of more of a scribe’s labor per family. And they would wear out too so you would have to replace them. I don’t think any subsistence agriculture society could realistically feed a group of scribes big enough to do the job. Family copies of the Bible for anyone other than the elite didn’t become a thing until the printing press was developed and improved to the point that books were relatively cheap.

Also it is very very hard to become literate without books to read and practice on so if the peasants don’t have access to written works they aren’t gonna be literate. Our society is literate because we are reading all the time. 

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, CV75 said:

That's fine and a good thing for him to have done -- but was it sent forth as individual, personal copies or in the form of a bulletin or proclamation that was read to smaller congregations (perhaps in the synagogues by the high council  ) or posted in a few places where anyone who could read (present tense) read (past tense) it? This is not proof of widespread literacy and personal copies, but of access to and familiarity with the content of sacred prophet-king declarations and other scriptures. This case, K'riat haTorah or even "town criers" are more likely means of dissemination. 

It would have been this. A kind of town crier type thing because a bulletin would be meaningless to most of those present.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Did they have regular worship in synagogues at that time? If I recall correctly for some reason the physical Church had disbanded prior to his kingship and was reestablished under Alma's leadership by the authority of Mosiah.

 

FAIR and BYU cover this better than I, but when I did a Church online search for “synagogue” in the Book of Mormon, the first mention was Mosiah 2:5 (124 BC) – King Benjamin’s temple, with him and everyone else outdoors so he could be heard. Interesting! But this is the same format as a synagogue and Jewish tradition with the congregation facing the king outside the temple (representing the Aron Kodesh which in turn is symbolic of the temple); the king standing on a high substitute bimah /almemar (vs 7 – 8); and the feast of tabernacles as many scholars have pointed out.

The last mention is Moroni 7: 1 (401 AD), and there are at least 22 other mentions in between. Nephi knew about them (2 Nephi 26:26, 559 BC). Alma mentions them most. Helaman 3:9 (49 BC); the Jaredites had sanctuaries and places of assembly. Most relevant to the OP, Alma preached in them in 81 BC (Alma 16:13); The people of Ammonihah and the Zoramites used them around that time (up to 74 BC).

So, I think regular weekly worship in synagogues is a reasonable expectation. Back to the OP, the Zoramites gathered to worship one day of the week, “the day of the Lord” (Alma 31:12).

King Mosiah II divided his priest-king responsibilities in such a way that Alma became the leader of the Church in Zarahemla, but that is a different matter.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Risingtide said:

 

“cast your mind back to what you heard from the reading of the prophet Zenos” is the same but a better way of saying what I did, “remembering what they had read or had read to them before…”