Calm

Anyone taking any type of authority to interpret doctrine for the Church without being called to it and given the authority is in dangerous territory. Expressing one’s opinion, teaching scholarship is fine…insisting what the Church has chosen to use as its standard is wrong and publicizing that position is problematic. added: not saying it’s inherently immoral or sinful to publicly oppose Church policy, it might even be the better way in some rare cases (I am not going to judge everyone arrogant, looking for fame and/or profit, etc. because I can’t know what efforts, if any, to bring problems to the attention of leaders have occurred before going public with some)…just be prepared for the consequences and don’t act like it’s unexpected. The Church has been wrong with its policies on some occasions imo, but the Church also has a right imo to dictate its own correction process and what is and isn’t apostasy.

I hate how AI is being used in way too many fields. It’s pretty dang fantastic for the good stuff it can do, such as speeding up medical research. Like any extraordinarily powerful tool, it needs to be used with caution and unfortunately that’s not obvious to some people or they just don’t care.

Would you believe a practice that Buddhists are doing should inform Christian behaviour? Burning incense in Buddhism may be done to get rid of bad karma. Would it make sense for a Christian apologist who was supporting using incense in Christian rituals to use the Buddhist example to explain why Christians burn incense? Buddhist also use chanting, have monastic orders, sacred places, etc. Their ultimate goal is nirvana. Does it make sense to use their practices to justify similar practices in Christianity when the ultimate purpose is fundamentally different?

Interesting… ”He says he doesn't want to limit himself to temples in Utah.” There’s only 22 operating in Utah anyway. But he may make enough money off his videos that he can cover travel costs….at least he can deduct them as a business expense. Otherwise could be a financial strain to try and squeeze them into a year.

Never heard of him, what’s his thing? I asked Chat how many operating temples there are in Utah and a half day’s drive. It came up with 53, so not that big of an effort if he’s not going for a major tour, but over weekends.

That’s why I was thinking money would help. Pay someone who knew how to fine tune it.

I like murder mysteries. It wasn’t bad.

Give it a month or two and that problem will likely be resolved (or some money to fine tune it).

I do.

Your cousin is wrong, though the mistake is understandable and common. If your parent gives you the gift of a car for college (a gift he has had ready and waiting for you since before you were born), but requires you to learn how to drive and get a driver’s license beforehand, is it any less of a gift? Your parent pays for any fees, taxes, insurance, gas in the future while also teaching you how to drive. You just need to show up and pay attention and then use it well to fulfill their purpose of gifting you it and everything else. Did you pay for any of the car or what came with it just because you had to agree to prepare yourself to be able to receive it? You also have the choice not to learn or go get a license, but then the car will just sit in the driveway since you don’t know how to use it and you can’t go off to college with it. Salvation is a gift from God, he asks us to prepare ourselves to receive his gifts that he prepares for us…and then on top of that, he is the one who prepares us through the work of his spirit with repentance and faith and obedience.

Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

Just curious on how this happened? Are they currently residents of the US?

I wouldn’t be surprised. Large family with some weird power dynamics, nothing obviously abusive that I know of except in the case of my 7 year old mom who almost died of a burst appendix because her aunt taking care of her was dismissive of her pain and illness, said she was acting for attention (not mom at all, but I can see Grandma doing it). Mom was pretty sure that happened because her aunt was jealous of her mom, the popular teacher. Her aunt struggled badly with her weight and appearance was very important to all the sisters. Pity is not kind when it’s not wanted. Between that, a few other minor pecking order episodes I saw, and Grandma’s obsession with social status, my guess is that family had some big struggles before wealth came that left lasting effects. There might have been mental illness with the mother, though I have always assumed it was dementia that landed her in a mental institution later in life.

I have read it. I don’t see much value in trying to prove my sincerity if you start from a position of me lacking it or with the same assumptions about my reasoning as before since trying to demonstrate your misunderstandings before hasn’t worked at all on the thread so far even though I have invested a lot of effort and time into it already.

I am not working against his concerns even if it seems to be that way. Disagreeing with part of an argument is not dismissing or arguing against the whole of it. I share some of his concerns myself, others I do not but I am trying to understand why he and you are concerned in these ways. I can try to explain the one part of his current argument I have expressed having difficulty with if it makes sense to you I am approaching that part of his arguments not to confront, but to clarify.

Do you think it is possible that I was asking for clarification to see if I was interpreting your comments correctly out of simple curiosity at that point and there was no other emotion involved since I was refraining from judgment until I knew for sure what you meant? I don’t think it will help explain my reasoning behind the way I phrased it unless you can see it in that way.

It’s a historic place name, like the Mormon trail. 😛 Anything like this that is still around in the same basic form after 20 years on the internet definitely qualifies historic in my view. And urls are addresses.

Jay, I believe it’s fine if a particular faith has its own definitions or terms for religious concepts, even when the actual words are commonly used by others if they limit the use of those definitions to inside their own group since all understand the words in the same way. LDS certainly have multiple definitions for salvation and damnation, which can cause great confusion when we are talking to those not familiar with our way of speaking. The problem arises when a group or individual insist their particular definition applies globally, iow they interpret everything everyone says using their individual definition or reject any other definition as invalid, wrong, etc. If LDS insisted that every use of the word “damnation” has to mean only one thing and that is everything besides the state of exaltation as one of its usages, even if one has repented and is baptized, even our own theology would be a mess (exaltation is only one of the many mansions God promises us) with those living in Heaven still being described as damned (that this example is probably more confusing to you than illuminating is evidence that using unique definitions with those who don’t understand the words in the same way isn’t helpful in creating understanding). From the LDS pov, explaining why we don’t see the limiting of Christian to only those who believe sola scriptura, the creeds, or traditional Christian faiths: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/christians?lang=eng

Not really just that though. Many of the same people who deny LDS the right to call ourselves Christians treat Catholics the same because they aren’t sola scriptura…even though such a requirement isn’t really in the Bible (one verse—Deu 4:6 iirc— interpreted as talking against adding to the Bible would eliminate much of the Bible itself as written later, for example). A Catholic answer to the charge: https://www.catholic.com/qa/why-do-some-protestant-denominations-not-consider-catholics-to-be-christians-and-how-do-you

More of the amount of increased time and effort is required if one needs others to contribute to one’s care, whether it’s on the patient or the caregiver as well as disruption of one’s normal routines (if one becomes unable to physically do things or has frequent interruptions due to illness or just many doctor’s appointments). As soon as others are a necessity for day to day care, life gets so much more complicated…just in having to have an additional awareness of the other’s schedule and availability and what can impact that. I don’t drive very much due to issues of dizziness, which means I am very dependent on others to get to doctor’s appointments. I have to be sure before I schedule that someone is available, I have to remember to remind them, have to schedule extra time set aside to ensure if they are delayed getting to my place we will still be on time, etc. And that is one adjustment. If you have to pay for a service, then there is the worry of financial costs and trying to ensure it’s covered by insurance. Insurance is getting insane for the amount of time and effort it takes for something unusual. If you have to involved physical or emotional aids, another layer of complication and cost. Self care is no longer a couple of hours a day if one has hygiene and exercise routines plus the time involved in feeding and cleaning one’s residence, but could become the equivalent of a full time job.

No, I am not. You appear to expect me to perfectly communicate, but I don’t. I often type as if I am talking, which means the tone in my head shapes how I hear what I write and it would have been obviously a question if you had heard me speak it. It was a question…one full question, but if you want to see me as a liar, so be it. I will try and remember not to put so much effort into explaining what I actually mean when you misunderstand me because it looks like it will be a waste of effort. I could have had a good walk if I hadn’t let myself get distracted by this today for the time and attention I put into it. That’s on me, I need to shift my priorities. Got to say it’s really weird to me it’s important enough to you to dismiss my comments that you prefer to see me as a liar, someone willing to risk my salvation through knowingly sinning for something so trivial in the scheme of things as is this conversation rather than someone who is unable to convey her ideas in a way you get it…which would be no big deal except you defaulted into lying. I hope that Smac trusts me enough to realize it’s a communication problem and not a lack of honesty. added: @smac97, since it appears my communication is faulty here, I want to make it clear to you and anyone willing to believe me (yes, I am pissed off at Longview for choosing to believe it’s a moral failing rather than a communication error) that I don’t believe you are trying to be emotionally manipulative. I am pretty sure I used “appears” when I spoke of emotional manipulation, but it probably isn’t clear I meant using highly emotionally baggaged procedures was giving imo a false impression of what you were trying to do. I believe it looks like emotional manipulation because there is major emotion attached to amputation and paralysis/spinal injury. Paralysis, even partial, is many people’s worse nightmare from what I have heard some people say over the years as well as how it’s portrayed culturally in dramas, etc. Amputation, of course, has disgust added to it because the cause is usually tremendously injured flesh, shattered flesh and bones beyond repair, gangrene. Any conversation where they get inserted is going to be hard to avoid strong emotional undertones and inferences, imo. However, I assume you are using these examples because they would be seen as clearly an irrational choice by the vast majority of people, a very bright line for decision making, not for their emotional impact. And they make a very good bright line. I just don’t see them as in the same category, so I believe a better argument could be made by using procedures of comparable risk and medical and functional impact. I am not claiming this is why though as I may be wrong about why you are using them as at this point I am not trusting my interpretations of your comments since there is so much misunderstanding happening, just explaining here my guesses.

If that is so, it’s very unfortunate. It is much more hopeful to see something that appears to have worked to improve things even though humans mess things up so easily.

Possible partial reason: So yes, this looks like they had been carrying while at the funeral, which is against church rules iirc. https://kutv.com/news/local/shooting-investigation-salt-lake-city-funeral-church

I was asking a question. I made it clear it was a question, a serous one. I was not putting words in your mouth. As far as the rest of your response to my post, you are not arguing about what I said, but what you think I said and I don’t see how I can be any clearer than I have been and I have already addressed your criticisms in previous posts as to why you are misinterpreting, so I won’t be responding any more. I am going to add one more comment…there are a number of arguments made by less than proficient apologists for the Restored Gospel (older claims about archeological finds for example) that make me royally cringe. This does not mean I am antimormon, rooting for the anti Mormons, or soft on antimormonism or any less a devout Saint. In fact, I see it as beneficial to the Church for its defenders to drop the lesser quality defenses in order to put effort into refining the better ones. Claiming plural marriage was practiced primarily because there were more women than men in the Church or to take care of the widows and children did us no favors, for example. Much better to simply state it was practiced because members believed it was a commandment of God. And then include a realistic picture of it, warts and blessings, including the testimonies of those who actually lived it. I believe I first read it presented this way in Widtsoe’s Evidences and Reconciliations, which was my first real exposure to defending the Church I believe. It held a honored place on my parents’ library shelves, Widtsoe is a favorite of our family. If you can’t see the difference between disliking one specific argument about an issue because I see that one argument as a logical fallacy of false equivalence and rejecting all arguments supporting a particular position, that’s not my issue, but yours.

The way it was described as religion not being involved it leaves open, imo, the possibility that it wasn’t related to the funeral itself, it was more the neighborhood…though perhaps people who went to the funeral were targeted given so many were injured. But maybe it was just being at the right place at the wrong time. Shooting wasn’t random, so either someone was targeted or someone got angry over something happening it seems to me. They were taking people into custody even though they said the people weren’t suspects. Did they return fire or were they being detained for something else (if gang related?) I wonder who the funeral was for and how they died. Too many things to speculate about. That is one of the things that makes it ridiculous imo, that we have so many likely options for shootings to choose from and they are apparently not uncommon in that area (at least firing off guns). Hopefully we will get more details soon on the what and why.