Calm

Because for the vast majority of LDS, being a Christian isn’t about what church you belong to, but if you are trying to follow Christ, see him as your Saviour. And LDS most certainly view Christ in that way.

Nothing Bro. McKay described actually requires the counselor to be “acting like he is in black church while singing a negro spiritual”. He sang the song like a lot of whites sing it in my experience, extending the “I’m” into “I’mma” (not sure how to write that). That’s the only detail provided. Personally I prefer the second ad it feels to me like it fits the rhythm better and it’s how I sing it typically. Everything labeling the counselor’s behaviour as “Black” came from Bro. McKay’s imagination since as reported his friend said nothing to him and was just singing the song, the conversation was imagined. It sounds like Bro. McKay hasn’t had much experience seeing performances or performing the song himself with a group (or in music class as a kid like I did iirc), so he’s not familiar with the different ways of pronouncing the lyrics that probably have more to do with where you first heard it than your own race.

English is a fun language. Maybe should be rewritten as “A woman is a Secretary to the Stake President”.

That’s taking clickbait too far.

The Restored Gospel views mortality as insufficient. What comes next is about filling in the gaps for all and allowing Christ and his Atonement to work on us until we are both ready for the next step and it’s ready for us (Second Coming opening up resurrection). Even for active, devout LDS members with all their temple work done this is not an easy, short term step as taught by Joseph Smith. There is much even temple endowed still need to learn. We have our ordinances done, but can’t make full use of them yet. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-47-exaltation?lang=eng Not only that, the Spirit World is not off somewhere, but in the here and now with us, surrounding us though we are mostly unaware of it. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1977/01/the-spirit-world-our-next-home?lang=eng Speculation: This implies to me and many other Saints that not only are Paradise, Spirit Prison, and Hell (using Hell solely for the unrepentant here as that is typical usage when discussing this topic in detail) a state of mind or being rather than specific locations, but it’s possibly true for the degrees of glory in heaven. We are all together, just some are more spiritually aware than others of their surroundings. Paradise is defined in our scriptures as a state of being, a state of peace. Spirit Prison would have has those seeking that peace, Hell is those rejecting that peace.

Jay, I applaud you for researching our faith. But you have been studying it for 6 months, correct? That’s not very long for studying religious faith of any kind, especially if you aren’t attending meetings and discussing with members how they use the language. That would be like studying Spanish from a textbook and believing one was fluent once one memorized all the vocabulary in a basic text when one had never heard it spoken. Quite a few posters here are not only life long members (for me that’s over 65 years), but we have also been deep diving it even before there was the internet and discussing it here and elsewhere online for over 2 decades. And if anyone of us like this claimed they were absolute experts in everything LDS, I would laugh in their face…not mocking, but kindly because of their delusion. The leaders who determine our official doctrine are not professional theologians trained in preaching and scripture languages so they can read and understand the original texts. We are led by lay ministers who have the same Sunday School and personal at home level of training in scripture and doctrine as the rest of us members. It makes for messiness, a bit of chaos even. Not saying they are not inspired, I believe our teachings are based in revelation, but I am speaking about using precision in speaking and writing like academics are taught to do in many fields to avoid confusion.

More fun…even Paradise gets called a spirit prison… https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel/chapter-30?lang=eng Once you feel you have got a handle of the various definitions of LDS Spirit Prison and Hell, we will move on to the multitudes that are Salvation and Damnation. Fun times!

Then there is this complication in understanding the different view of Hell that LDS have and how we use language: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-study-guide-for-home-study-seminary-students-2014/section-01/unit-5-day-3-doctrine-and-covenants-19-1-22?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-seminary-teacher-manual-2014/section-4/lesson-81-doctrine-and-covenants-76-81-119?lang=eng

Asking LDS to be completely consistent in how we treat our doctrinal language, even officially, is asking for the impossible, but scripture has never been that consistent over time. Language usage changes. Hell can indeed mean generally the place of all of the not yet redeemed dead, equivalent to Spirit Prison as in the reference you linked to, but the more common usage that has been in our basic doctrine manual for as long as I have been paying attention (40 years or more iirc), uses Hell as the less appealing side of Spirit Prison for the those who do not want to repent. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-41-the-postmortal-spirit-world?lang=eng Then there are those who only use “spirit prison” for the upper level college part of the postmortal spirit world. (Hell: trade or community school, spirit prison: university, Paradise: postgraduate work ). Have to look at the context to figure out what usage is going on. If you prefer, call them X (unrepentant) Y (in the process of accepting the Gospel), Z (accepted Christ as redeemer and his Gospel) For another definition there is Outer Darkness, which may be referred to as Hell in scriptures, but that is post resurrection and eternal.

I like it better, but it’s more complicated it seems (I have no knowledge of music) and not as rousing. Probably more fitting back then when they were personally mourning him rather than more upbeat celebrating his part in the Restoration.

Not completely correct. Spirit prison is divided into two parts. First, those who are generally (as even the best of humans are complex and not sinless, save Christ) good souls who will accept Christ as their Saviour when they learn of him, but have not accepted the Gospel yet. They suffer from not being able to be resurrected yet just as Saints do before the morning of the First Resurrection even if in Paradise, but if accepted before the second coming, they get resurrected along with everyone else (save for those who are exceptions) at that time. If by chance you believe Christ is your redeemer (as most Christians do), but still refuse to accept the Gospel as he or his ministers teaches it for some reason, then yes, you will remain in spirit prison…kind of like having to repeat college courses if you do fulfill the lab requirements or pass the tests but you still want to graduate someday. Those who accept Christ during the Millennium are resurrected at that time if already dead or upon death. The second part of spirit prison is hell and that is for those who after they have been taught refuse to accept Christ as their redeemer and therefore must suffer for their own sins. They are resurrected at the end of the Millennium, which is a thousand years from the time of the Second Coming, at least symbolically speaking. Even in hell there is no sense of demons or others punishing the unrepentant in latter-day revelation I believe. It sounds more like its internal anguish based on our awareness of the consequences of our actions, such as Alma the Younger experienced and it can be ended quickly as it was for Alma by accepting Christ. Hell is true and full self awareness, imo, of who we really are with our self delusions stripped away. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/spirit-world?lang=eng This is an unofficial summary of how we teach the stages of resurrection, remember once someone accepts the gospel after death they are counted among the Saints and are resurrected with all who accept Christ as Redeemer. https://www.ldsliving.com/what-does-it-mean-to-come-forth-in-the-morning-of-the-first-resurrection/s/89035 Here’s an official version: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/32-resurrection-and-judgment?lang=eng Is there a reason why you think you might not accept all of Christ’s teachings and commandments once you are dead?

Why choose anonymity? To be blunt, I am much less likely to read something anonymous and I suspect I am not the only one.

Then the possibility that Lincoln read the Book of Mormon is irrelevant to his sacrifice for eliminating slavery and preserving the Union it seems to me. I was trying to figure out how you were attempting to connect them. While the Book of Mormon was included in the books the Library of Congress sent him, it doesn’t look like he specifically requested it, seems like he was more interested in Mormons themselves than our sacred text. https://archive.nytimes.com/opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/17/lincoln-and-the-mormons/ There is no comment in his writings or speech that can be tied to that text and since he was known to often record in his diaries, letters, etc books he read, seems like at most he scan through it, but no deep reading enough to make an impression on him. The claim of the phrase “instrument of in the hands of God” was from the Book of Mormon ignores that Lincoln was very Bible literate and while that specific phrase is not in the Bible iirc, the idea is. (Romans 6:13) (ngrams pulls up variations like “instrument in the hands of Providence” or “divine Providence”, “instrument in the hands of the great Creator”, also “instrument in the hands of Justice” and other divine references. It was also the Executive Mansion that requested them, which may or may not be only for Lincoln given one of the books was in French. He was interested in Mormons at the time, but I wonder if he also had people read things for him and give their summary and opinion. That his reading of the book was limited at best is speculation, of course, but stronger evidence than the speculation he read it, which is based solely on possession, which may or may not have been intentional.

Just found out the daughter of a good friend of my husband’s, one of the neighbors on our street, was murdered last year by a serial killer. She left two children now living with their grandmother. Our friend just got back from burying her last week as it took some time to find her, my husband found this out when he picked him up at the airport. The predator is in prison for another murder. I don’t know if they are prosecuting him for this one (maybe they located her body and others through a plea deal). Her funeral was followed by another one as our friend had a stroke and died a few days after he got home. His was this morning. Think he was in his fifties, hard to tell, could have been late 40s. His health wasn’t great after a hard life (been in the military and gotten really messed up, had turned his life around and then got hit with cancer, fought that and won not long ago, but this last was likely too much). Violence and tragedy is never very far away.

Of the Book of Mormon or something else?

While there may be some Saints who are intentionally moving closer to classical theology, I think for most who study such it is a matter of following scriptural counsel to “seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and faith”. I wonder how many look on it as moving closer as opposed to finding truths to add to our knowledge. Not saying the gap isn’t closing at this point, but “inch closer” makes it sound intentional and if that is the understanding, I think it will end in disappointment as movement may be as likely to move away as well, imo. I see the huge gap as based on the Father as an exalted man (no matter what he originally existed as) and humanity as the same species as he is, no unbridgeable gap of any sort between creator and creature (even if the Father always existed in the same state of being he has now added: and we have not). This point God is an exalted human and we can become essentially as he is while maintaining the relationship of Father and child) is official revelation of a longstanding nature in my view and has canon to support it (D&C 130:22, D&C 132:19-20).

Yeah, I went through that with Mom. It was probably the hardest thing I ever had to do because my emotions just couldn’t accept this was happening to her and I and my husband were primary caregivers in the family (we did get her into assisted living which helped a great deal with my fear of her living alone, which was insane, others didn’t realize she was as bad as she was). Ach….can still I still have hangups about it even though it’s been 6 years. Since they are 99, it sounds like your family figured out a workable system of care. I hope you can enjoy your time with them.

I don’t have the least problem with the way you have presented your thoughts above in this post (have to review your other posts to see what troubled me before). You leave room for this approach that I and some others have adopted to be valid, non prejudicial etc, appropriate, and even potentially the best in terms of mental health though you express doubt about the last. In the absence of actual documentation of research comparing various approaches and their value, I see that as a sensible and valid position.

Got it.

You likely have already done this at that age, but if they are up to it recording their memories or messages to family members, that would be a nice thing to do.

Also, much of the Journal was based off of shorthand notes taken by George Watts. I am spacing on her name, but a rare expert in this Pittman shorthand has been going back to the original shorthand and comparing the published text. There are significant, sometimes very significant differences. One reason appears to be George Watts decided to make Brigham sound more prophety, grander in speech than he really was. My opinion is he filled in some gaps as well with his own stuff or speculations. Brigham may or may not have cared as he cautioned about treating them as error free or finished. LaJean Carruth…that’s her name. Took a minute to percolate to the top. I belong to FAIR. Very proud we have got her to talk at our conferences. I love her opening, if you aren’t in the mood to watch the whole thing, watch it for the limerick at the beginning that summarizes her findings.

Going repetitively to “ugly” to attack my personal language choice rather than just keeping it at “wrong” or “inflammatory” seems like a gratuitous insult to me.

I may disagree with your own perception of your comments. I find it respectful to believe someone can change and therefore be willing to take the risk of calling them out to correct them. I assume that is why you posted given your usual posting rather than to just upset him.

So helpful to those who freeze when the spotlight shines even when prepared.