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And it’s pretty well established that legal protections increase family stability. Removes sources of conflict and anxiety for both adults and children. People are going to poly whether it is recognized or not, so for the best interest of the children involved, it seems logical to establish legal protections to maximize what stability there is. Gone are the days social stigma was enough to keep people in even in the most abusive marriages. Never was strong enough to keep men that faithful. Fear of poverty, losing rights to their children worked for women as long as they were treated as children themselves, property of either their father or husband. Want to promote so called traditional marriage (labeling it traditional just because there’s a man and woman involved doesn’t make sense to me since culture and technology has pretty much changed so much of the other characteristics)? Makes more sense to approach it by removing the biggest contributors to instability, especially financial stress. Provide counseling and education to lower divorce rates. Remove the need for any parent to be long absent from their home just so they can get a decent paying job or even if living together, not interacting with each other because needing to work long hours to survive. (There is also the imo foolish setup of school hours that works more as babysitting than maximizing learning.) Remove marriage penalties that lower rates of assistance or raises taxes if persons from lower income levels gets married. Let people be confident they will be able to afford a stable, safe home for their family, that they will have time off from work for pregnancy if necessary and paternity leave plus assurance they can get effective medical care for themselves and their children and that they will be able to feed and care for all their children no matter what happens and they will likely have more. Highly unlikely pointing at others, insisting those people must not be allowed to marry or anything similar to it and no way should the community help them with babies and children they shouldn’t have had in the first place (even if abortion was also removed as a choice) is somehow magically going to make other people want to cuddle up in male-female pairs with government approval and pop kids out. https://community.lawschool.cornell.edu/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Sheff-et-al.-final.pdf https://vanierinstitute.ca/families-count-2024/polyamorous-families-have-broadened-family-law/ Create a family friendly, family supportive environment rather than a community where parents feel they are walking a tight rope.

So I was wrong…it wasn’t a writer taking liberty with the story to make it more dramatic. It is appropriate to the story, one of the many, apparently, misinterpretations by the Herdsmen children. Got this from Chat: In answer to “who is the king they think gave the presents”:

Because that is a creative interpretation. The actual scriptures identify them as coming from the treasure chests of the magi, nothing about Herod giving gifts. Now Herod could have given them stuff they then added to their treasure chests or “their” could have meant in their stewardship. That Herod gave the chests for them to carry. But a more natural interpretation imo you don’t have to squint hard and pencil in words to read between the lines to see is they brought their own treasures to worship the child. I double-checked my memory. Matthew appears to be the only reference to that.

Decent work as a mainstream Protestant devotional analyzing Matthew 15:21–28. But for your purposes, this specific devotional could be a polemical subtext using a Protestant interpretation of grace and exclusivity to implicitly critique LDS theology or culture. As non-LDS in LDS spaces frequently share Protestant devotionals to contrast "Biblical Christianity" with what they view as LDS errors. (Not that you shouldn't tell us what you think is meaningful to you, just beware that I feel a certain "Trojan horse" approach to your style of apologetics, so forgive me if I sometimes falsely say so.) In Part 2, the author criticizes the disciples for acting like they were upgraded to "Jesus class" while looking down on outsiders, citing Ephesians 2:14 "destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility". Critics often argue that LDS temples, the priesthood, or the concept of there being the "one true church" creates an elitist "in-group" vs. "out-group" barrier that contradicts New Testament grace. It heavily emphasizes undeserved favor (grace) and states that the woman had no "rights and privileges" yet was accepted purely through her recognition of Jesus. Another critique of LDS theology is that Latter-day Saints rely on obedience, ordinances, and personal worthiness to "earn" salvation, rather than relying solely on Christ's grace. "Great faith is relying solely on Jesus and no one, nowhere, and nothing else" in Part 4, could be a subtle jab at LDS reliance on living prophets, temples, and an institutional church as ones and wheres. The story highlights an outsider bypassing religious gatekeepers (the disciples who wanted to send her away) and going straight to Jesus. Critics use this narrative framework to argue that individuals do not need an institutional priesthood to access Christ. Notice that the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15 received physical healing as an act of mercy available to outsiders described as "crumbs from the table". However, immediately following this in Matthew 16-18, Jesus shifts focus exclusively to His inner circle, the Keys of the Kingdom (Matt. 16:19), ascending the Mount of Transfiguration for an endowment with only three apostles and commanding strict secrecy (Matt. 17:1-9), and conferring binding priesthood authority upon the Twelve (Matt. 18:18). Protestant devotionals often flattens God’s mercy and grace as freely extended to all (like the Canaanite woman), ignoring instances of covenants, keys, and temple mysteries entrusted progressively to initiated stewards who are prepared to bear them. If the Canaanite woman highlights how freely Christ extends mercy to outsiders, that’s true. What it leaves out is what Jesus does after to establish strict priesthood boundaries, secret teachings, and temple-style initiation for His inner circle. Jesus did not teach everything openly to the public. He explicitly told His inner circle, "To you has been given the secret [musterion] of the kingdom of God, but for those outside everything is in parables" (Mark 4:11). Paul continues this exact framework, distinguishing between spiritual "babes" who only receive elementary principles (Hebrews 5:12–6:2) and the mature (teleios, "complete/initiated"). "We speak wisdom among them that are perfect [teleios]... we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery [musterion], even the hidden [apokekrymmenen] wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory" (1 Corinthians 2:6-7). In the first-century world, musterion and teleios were standard terms for sacred initiation into guarded rites not preached to the general public. Found throughout scripture. Jesus' endowment in 2 Peter 1:16-18, Peter writes, "We were eyewitnesses of His majesty... when we were with Him on the holy mountain." The Greek word Peter chooses for "eyewitnesses" is epoptai, the technical term used in ancient sacred rites for initiates admitted to the highest grade. Grace and mercy are freely offered to everyone who comes to Christ, just like the Canaanite woman. But the New Testament makes it clear that priesthood keys and the higher mysteries of God belong to entrusted and faithful stewards.

It is actually very popular amongst LDS. I don’t think it is reasonable. I really think if God felt strongly about it He should have just said so instead of doing a bit of childish winking and hinting about it.

Not something I am familiar with either. I am presuming the movie may indicate, that has the Magi travelled through Jerusalem on the way to Bethel. Herod asked for the gifts to be given. Unless there is any basis for this, then it may have been added to the script. 🤔

Sounds like a good movie! Does it say that in the bible? I've never heard that either.

Dan just put out a short video promoting two books, and one of them is the Mormonism in Five Minutes book I posted about above. And he's doing a giveaway the Mormonism book in case anyone wants to try for it Here's the link to the video: Two new books & a giveaway! #maklelan3558

No, I don’t. Thank you for your candor. I didn't ask if the construction/interpretation of the is popular, but rather if it is reasonable. Thanks, -Smac

That is my concern, yes. Denial: "It’s not happening at all." Downplaying: "Okay, it might be happening a little bit, but it’s no big deal." Rationalization: "Yes, it’s happening, and actually, that’s a good thing." Moral/Social Shaming: "You're a bigot/idiot/conspiracy theorist for having a problem with it." Looks like we're at Step 2. Slippery slope. Camel's nose in the tent. Actually, I think that is the question. Were it not an incremental step toward group marriage, I wouldn't care about it. LA Times: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2026-11-03/in-triad-foursome-west-hollywood-will-register-your-relationship "Complex" in terms of . . . what? Wehoonline: https://wehoonline.com/west-hollywood-polyamory-law-throuples/ Men's Journal: https://www.mensjournal.com/sex-relationships/california-city-now-lets-throuples-register-as-domestic-partners Thanks, -Smac

I honestly prefer the version in the Gospel of Mark.

No advice...sorry. I'm similar to you but no PhD, haha. I want to go back to church, but the reasons are purely for community and I did enjoy doing some service, and was a former temple recommend holder and active for many many years. I hope you get it figured out and welcome to the MDDB. 🙂

Loved, loved "The Best Christmas Pageant Ever". I had no idea how good this would be. Just happened to see it on Netflix and gave it a shot. I hope others here may want to give it a try with the holiday or Christmas festivities beginning. P.S. Because I watched this movie, why is it the first time I learned the gold, frankincense, and myrrh from the wiseman or "Magi", was because King Herod sent them??

No, I don’t. That is an implied reading that only became popular when the Church started really intently mimicking other Christians on the topic of abortion and went looking for prooftexts and couldn’t find one but you could sort of stretch that one verse to possibly be about abortion if you assume abortion is a lot like killing so they started using it as the best thing they had. It isn’t very good but doctrines have been established on much more shaky grounds both before and since. I do find it kind of silly since the LDS church’s stances on abortion have been very malleable and fall in line in each era with ‘what the world thinks’. Brigham Young was preaching Victorian norms on abortion and childbirth. Early Saints accepted the ‘quickening”. Then when the evangelicals got upset that the government was going to make them end segregation in their taxpayer supported schools and realized that abortion would make a good wedge issue to fight over and fundraise from since racism was becoming a harder sell they ran with it and the LDS Church jumped in line and followed. Also I hear all the time about how the Book of Mormon and D&C are for our day but it doesn’t seem very prescient about the issues facing our day. Instead the Church lurches with cultural norms from supposedly apostate Christianity and worldly mores. Where is the revelation?

If you can answer the temple recommend questions honestly in affirmative without prevaricating, I don’t believe you have to believe all the traditional beliefs. They aren’t specifying a certain set of details when it comes to testimony and there is nothing stopping them from adding those details if they felt it was necessary. There is nothing requiring a belief in the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Sustaining does not equate to obeying and accepting everything last thing they say as inerrant. Kevin Christensen has posted on this in an insightful way on the board. A search on sustain should bring it up if any were in this last year, otherwise Google AI might be the easiest. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/26-temple-recommends?lang=eng Being honest and paying a full tithe might be the most difficult based on the circumstances you mentioned here If you are giving up on BYU, then the honest question could be resolved as long as you are honest with how much tithing you are paying. Added: I don’t know your views of the Atonement, the Restoration, etc. of course. I think a basic acceptance that Joseph was given priesthood keys somehow to restore the Church and these keys are passed down, currently held by President Oaks is necessary. I don’t see a requirement to believe God didn’t inspire others in similar ways even if our President is the only one authorized to exercise all the keys. What the temple recommend questions absolutely require would be an interesting discussion to have. Could God have given others some of the keys without a public hierarchy with the President of the Restored Church administering those keys, overseeing their use? Temple Recommend Interview Questions Do you have faith in and a testimony of God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost? Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and of His role as your Savior and Redeemer? Do you have a testimony of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ? Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church? The Lord has said that all things are to be “done in cleanliness” before Him (Doctrine and Covenants 42:41). Do you strive for moral cleanliness in your thoughts and behavior? Do you obey the law of chastity? Do you follow the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ in your private and public behavior with members of your family and others? Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Do you strive to keep the Sabbath day holy, both at home and at church; attend your meetings; prepare for and worthily partake of the sacrament; and live your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel? Do you strive to be honest in all that you do? Are you a full-tithe payer? For new members seeking a recommend to perform proxy baptisms and confirmations: Are you willing to obey the commandment to pay tithing? Do you understand and obey the Word of Wisdom? (This question is omitted when interviewing a child or youth.) Do you have any financial or other obligations to a former spouse or to children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations? (This question is omitted when interviewing a member who is not endowed.) Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? (This question is omitted when interviewing a member who is not endowed.) Do you honor your sacred privilege to wear the garment as instructed in the initiatory ordinances? (Read the “Wearing the Temple Garment” statement, included below, to each member.) Are there serious sins in your life that need to be resolved with priesthood authorities as part of your repentance? Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?

So your problem isn’t with the law itself which just lets poly people get visiting rights in hospitals and prisons but that you think this could lead to “group marriage”? You realize that almost no one would have noticed this really minor ordinance until the media empire you feed from blasted this all over everything as a scare tactic and potentially to start yet another moral panic since the last ones have fallen flat. So the real question isn’t “where will this lead”. It would have gone nowhere except that conservative media outlets want to energize their base to fight yet another grave moral threat because the last few have flopped.

I don't think anyone is saying this. We are saying one should only go if you can answer the questions honestly. If you can, then go. If not, then I don't reccomend going, but recognize it is your choice, not mine.

Surveys and informal studies? What? Also the age 25 thing about full brain maturity is very badly misrepresented in popular culture far beyond what the data actually showed.

Not at all. If you can obtain a temple recommend by honestly answering all of the questions then that is what matters. But you've already said that you won't wear the garments as instructed (which is a temple recommend question) and also won't pay a full tithing (another temple recommend question). I'm not sure where you land on the other questions as you haven't mentioned your stance on those. You don't have to believe all of the beliefs or do all the things to go to the temple but you do have to believe and do the specific things required in the temple recommend interview.

I don't think that's a good reason. I'd also be surprised if your parents wanted you in the temple with them under those circumstances. I have a son that doesn't have a temple recommend and I'd much much rather he not go than lie so he could go. (no harsh tone intended in any of my posts)

Similar to manol, I also feel the Divine communicates with us through circumstances, and situations in our lives. I feel manol has made a valid point. For you to pray for understanding rather than resolution seems to be for the best.

Part 1 "Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon." -MATTHEW 15:21 Jesus retreated to the region of Tyre and Sidon after His heated exchange with the Pharisees on the true understanding of the purity laws. But why, of all places, did Jesus choose to go to Tyre and Sidon? The cities were located on the east coast of the Mediterranean. In order for Jesus to get there, He would have to head north through the Jordan Valley, which was actually a swamp, and then cut and climb through a mountain range to get to Tyre. This 45-mile journey would have taken Him at least three days. In the Old Testament, Tyre and Sidon were territories given to Israel, but Israel never conquered them. At best, there were short-lived alliances during the reigns of David and Solomon with Hiram, king of Tyre, who would send cedar to build the Temple and the royal palace. Tyre and Sidon were also historical centers of Baal worship, so cedar was not the only thing they exported; they also exported Baal worship. Altogether, Tyre and Sidon were Gentile territory that had a stronghold of idolatry and demonic forces. After arriving in Tyre and Sidon, Jesus entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet He could not keep His presence secret" (Mark 7:24). Then, a Canaanite woman from the vicinity came. In the past, the Canaanites opposed Israel and their idolatry was a constant threat and temptation to Israel; God also told Israel to have nothing to do with the Canaanites. This Canaanite woman had a daughter who was possessed by an unclean spirit and suffering terribly. She probably heard about this Galilean named Jesus performing miracles of healing and teaching about the kingdom of God. It would have been an impossible trip for this woman and her daughter to travel and meet Jesus, but she learned that one day Jesus had come to where she lived. Going against all cultural expectations, she went before Jesus and begged Him to save her daughter. She believed that Jesus had the power to heal her daughter, the question she wondered was whether He would be willing and show mercy to a Gentile? Returning to the original question of why Jesus went to Tyre and Sidon, He went there for this woman and her daughter. No matter where we are, Jesus is willing to go to where we are and draw us to Him. Jesus not only made the difficult journey to Tyre and Sidon, but also from heaven to earth to seek and save the lost-He came for you and me. Part 2 "A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to [Jesus], crying out, 'Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly?" -MATTHEW 15:22 A Canaanite woman who had a demon-possessed daughter went desperately before Jesus and cried out, Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly (Matthew 15:22). From these simple statements alone, we could glean three things about her. Firstly, the Canaanite woman referred to Jesus as "Lord," which was a term of address to someone who is of higher social standing, greater resources and greater abilities. Clearly, she saw her humble position before Jesus. Secondly, the woman was a Canaanite, a Gentile; and yet, she called Jesus Son of David, a title that referred not just to a descendant of David but the descendant. Even though the Canaanite woman was not Jewish and David was not her king, she acknowledged Jesus as the Messiah. Thirdly, she cried, "have mercy on me"; this is a cry of an inferior to superior pleading for undeserved favor. For her, the question was would Jesus have mercy and compassion on her, a Gentile woman, and her daughter? When Jesus did not respond, the disciples took it upon themselves to urge Him to do something about the Canaanite woman. They were not pleading on behalf of the Canaanite woman for Jesus to help but were urging, Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us" (Matthew 15:23). The disciples found the Canaanite woman disturbing them, and their behavior showed disdain towards her. We could compare the disciples' behavior to flying and being in business class. From the moment one steps into the plane, one experiences exceptional service from the seat to the meal to all the amenities on board, which is in contrast to those travelling in economy class. The most obvious difference in status is the curtain that divides the two sections. To indicate the privilege of those in business class, a curtain is drawn shut during the flight to keep the chaos of the economy class from disturbing those in business class. The disciples felt like they had been upgraded to "Jesus class" but what they did not realize was that they belonged in economy. The disciples forgot that they were lowly fishermen and tax collectors. Yet, they were placed in "Jesus class" as an act of grace. They failed to remember that their upgrade was only made possible by Jesus in order to bring people to Jesus. As people who experienced the grace of Jesus, the disciples failed to extend the same grace to the Canaanite woman. Ephesians 2:14 tells us, "For He Himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility." By the grace we received, may we also extend grace to those who need Jesus. Part 3 THE SAME MASTER "Jesus did not answer a word." -MATTHEW 15:23 A Canaanite woman came in desperation to Jesus, pleading and begging Him to have mercy on her for her daughter, who was demon-possessed and suffering terribly, but Jesus did not give her an answer. Did we notice the redundancy in Matthew's writing when he described what Jesus did? He did not simply say Jesus remained silent; he emphasized Jesus's intentional deliberate unresponsiveness. Jesus did not answer a word." What kind of unresponsiveness was this? What kind of silence? Did Jesus turn His face away? Some of us may wonder, what is going on? This is not the Jesus we often encounter in Scripture when a person humbles their heart before Him. As Jesus's disciples urged Him to send the woman away, He said to the woman, I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24). In other words, I am not for you. You don't have a seat at the table. There is no setting for you. You are an outsider. You are not one of us. You are not eligible. It is interesting that Jesus would say He came only for Israel because He was the One who went to a Gentile territory-to Tyre and Sidon. To Jesus's statement, the woman knelt before Him and cried, "Lord, help me!" (Matthew 5:25). When the woman asked for Jesus to have mercy on her (Matthew 15:22), it was an appeal to His heart attitude. Now, her plea was for Him to help her, an appeal for action. Jesus replied, 'It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to the dogs" (Matthew 15:26). In this statement, Jesus made a clear distinction: there are children and there are dogs. Children have rights and privileges because they are family, but dogs were considered unclean so Israel did not keep them as pets. (Although in the present day, we have dogs as pets and they are considered family; this was not the case during Jesus's time.) Dogs were a derogatory term used by Jews to refer to Gentiles. Despite Jesus's silence and negative response, as well as the disciples' rejection, the woman was not deterred. She kept pressing in. She said, Yes it is, Lord, even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their Master's table" (Matthew 15:27). This was a bold statement. The woman acknowledged that she was a dog, undeserving of bread, but she also made a point that the dog has a Master-that she belonged to the same Master as the children. It is true that the Canaanite woman did not belong to the "chosen" people of Israel, but she recognized who the true Master of her life was. Who is the Master of our lives? Part 4 YOU HAVE GREAT FAITH!" "Then Jesus said to her, Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted? And her daughter was healed at that moment." -MATTHEW 15:28 Where is our faith? Would we say it is 50% Jesus, 25% ourselves, 15% our bank accounts and 10% on who we know? Matthew 15:21-28 and Mark 7:24-30 give an exchange that Jesus had with a Canaanite woman begging Him to heal her daughter that was demon- possessed and suffering terribly. Although the woman encountered push back not only from Jesus's disciples, but also Jesus Himself, she was not deterred. Not even when Jesus said He was only sent to the lost sheep of Israel and that it is not good to take what is given to Israel and toss it to the Gentiles, the woman told Him that the crumbs were enough. She was not looking to take from Israel, but recognized the shared Master between Israel and the Gentiles. At this, Jesus exclaimed, Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted (Matthew 15:28). The exchange climaxed with Jesus praising the woman's faith and then proving that her faith was vindicated and validated by healing her daughter. Throughout the Gospel, this unnamed Canaanite woman was the only person whose faith was described as "great" by Jesus. As we consider the healing story of the Canaanite woman's daughter, we find it parallel to the Roman Centurion in Matthew 8:5-13, where both had a request on behalf of someone and Jesus healed them from a distance. While the centurion's faith was praised as being exceptional in Israel and the NIV translation adds the word "great" to describe his faith, it does not exist in the Greek text. The Canaanite woman was the only one that was praised by Jesus for having great faith. This begs the question, what is great faith? From the woman, we could consider three elements to great faith. Firstly, great faith is relying solely on Jesus and no one, nowhere and nothing else. Secondly, great faith is steadfast. Even though the woman was pushed back and discouraged three times by Jesus, she was a rock and did not move. She knew Jesus was the Messiah and that He was the Messiah for the whole world, including her. Lastly, great faith has limitless scope. The woman believed there was no limit to Jesus's love and His ability to heal her daughter. Jesus's gift to the Canaanite woman was not the healing of her daughter; His gift to her was taking faith and turning it into the reality of life experience. She had met Jesus and her life had changed. Where is our faith? Even when we receive push back and discouragement, will our faith remain steadfast upon Jesus?

And that's the way that I'm feeling about it. It seems that events in my life are moving me in this direction. I would like to go to the temple. I've been many times before, and I'm willing to live the standards, but it sounds like people are saying that I can't go unless also I believe all of the beliefs. Is that correct?

You could look her up. She is the person - the attorney/activist - who first proposed the city ordinance. From the article: Again: What do you think Fialho meant by "this law is just the beginning"? Beginning of what? What "future" do you think she is referencing? What "was out of reach"? For me, I think the answers are obvious: "Just the beginning" of efforts to legalize group marriage. Group marriage is the "future" that has been "out of reach." We don't need to have a "long conversation" for you to answer these two questions. Of course, you are under no obligation to do so. Pretty sure. I don't recall saying that. Please provide a link. The law professor I think you may have in mind, Lynn Wardle, noted that under the law in the U.S. marriage was predicated on five characteristics: number (2), sex (male-female), age (varied by jurisdiction), consent / mental capacity, and consanguinity. Number (2) enforces monogamy, promoting exclusivity, clear lines of responsibility, and stability. Sex (male-female) recognizes biological complementarity. Age (set by each state, typically 16–18 with or without consent) ensures a baseline of maturity for the legal and practical commitments involved. Mental capacity requires the ability to understand and consent to the nature of the marital contract (a longstanding common-law rule that voids or voidables marriages lacking real consent). Consanguinity bars marriages within close blood relationships (parent-child, siblings, etc., and often closer cousins in many states) to avoid incest and related social harms. In my view, these A) make sense and B) involve considerations for procreation. The male-female requirement and the consanguinity rules are the clearest indicators of a procreative orientation. Only opposite-sex unions are naturally capable of producing offspring; the sex criterion therefore channels the legal institution toward the biological reality of reproduction. Consanguinity prohibitions further reflect concern for the health of potential children by reducing risks of recessive genetic disorders. Age and capacity requirements support the expectation of mature, responsible adults who can parent. These traditional rules define marriage by its longstanding public purposes—chiefly channeling the unique capacity of a man and a woman to procreate and supporting the rearing of any children—not by hostility toward gay people or same-sex couples. The five characteristics (two persons, opposite sexes, age, capacity, and consanguinity limits) are general structural boundaries. They also exclude polygamy, group marriage, incest, underage marriages, and unions lacking consent. The opposite-sex element simply reflects that only male-female unions can naturally produce children and, historically, were understood as the core setting for raising them. This is a positive claim about the institution’s characteristic ends, not a judgment on the dignity of same-sex relationships. Distinguishing them on that basis is a rational view of what marriage is for, not evidence of animus. I think this is where and why people like you part ways with people like me. We both value marriage as an institution, but I think you view it as primarily a vehicle for adult emotional companionship or benefits, whereas I see it as that alongside the appropriate and divinely-ordained social and legal channel for procreation and the rearing of children by a complementary male-female pair. Removing or altering the sex criterion, in this view, severs that link and reorients the institution away from its historical child-centered public - and divine - purposes. Until Obergefell, two married people were one man and one woman. You may as well say that social security benefits was not based on recipients being homo sapiens. I think your AI buddy's comment here confuses the gradual elimination of some sex-based incidents of marriage (property control, alimony rules, survivor benefits, etc.) with a change in marriage’s definition. By 2015, many of the legal consequences that once differed by sex had indeed been equalized. That process dismantled doctrines such as coverture, which gave husbands extensive control over marital property and limited a wife’s independent legal capacity. Those rules were a mixed historical bag: some reflected older assumptions of female dependency or inferiority, while others (the husband’s duty of support, for example) were understood as protective of women. Their progressive removal made the legal consequences of marriage more gender-neutral; it did not redefine who may enter the status or what the institution is for. Marriage’s core legal structure—the requirement of one man and one woman—rested on a different foundation: the unique capacity of an opposite-sex couple to procreate and the judgment that this pairing is the preferred setting for raising children. That definition long predated coverture, survived its dismantling, and was still the law in nearly every state in 2015. Equalizing benefits and obligations between spouses is not the same thing as declaring that the sex of the parties is irrelevant to the meaning of the institution itself. And all this arises even without considering the religious/revelatory/doctrinal considerations about marriage within the Latter-day Saint paradigm. We believe God instituted marriage. I've said nothing to suggest that I have a "complaint" about women and men and equality under the law. I fully support that concept. Thanks, -Smac

My opinion (for what it's worth) is that one of the ways the Divine communicates with us is through the circumstances in our lives. It seems like the same general pattern is showing up in your life via different specific circumstances, so perhaps there is a message in there for you. Something that has worked for me is to pray for understanding rather than for "the resolution" to a specific situation, and then to be open to that "understanding" coming to you.