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They do have many of them except being everlasting with regards to their permanency but they do seem to have angels under them, even Satan has "his angels". I'm not certain they have a throne exactly, but they might. Jesus is one of them, I think he had a throne, and like them he became mortal, and had to be exalted again with a body and regain a throne. But Abraham 3 does say Jesus suggested that "we" the noble and great spirits should make an earth and Abraham 4 "they, rather the gods" make the earth. Are they two separate groups?

I'm struggling a lot with this right now. I can absolutely see the hand of God guiding my life in numerous ways, but I'm definitely unhappy with the place that I've been guided to. It is really hard to deal with the idea that God's plan for you includes major disappointments that won't be fixed in this life, or that God is putting you through suffering that feels completely unnecessary or pointless. Or that God will block your efforts to improve your situation or is withholding good things from you that He freely gives to other people, because it's all part of God's plan for you. The idea that God would cause a bad situation to come to you, and there is nothing that you could have done to avoid it because it's God's will, is hard to deal with. I'm right there now. I do take a little consolation in the idea that if God put this bad thing in my life, then I am not responsible for causing it. I am still responsible for working through it, but I can exonerate myself of the responsibility for causing it. I completely get the trust issue. You can completely trust God, and your worst fears can still come true. You can give your life and your will over to God and still end up in the exactly the bad situation that you didn't want to end up in. I don't have a good answer. What I am doing right now is trying to frame it as the idea that I have to go through this bad situation whether I want to or not, and that at some point, it will be over. I'm even past the point where I would ask what I can learn from it or what God is trying to teach me. I just know that at some point, the situation will be over, because no season lasts forever. That's the best I can do with it right now.

Abraham 4 mentions Gods. I don't see any noble humans (premortal spirit beings) being involved.

Do the gods of Psalm 82 have these qualities?

This poor girl was used in a massive propaganda offensive designed to stampede the proles into voting for a totalitarian one world dictatorship - - -

Looks like Dan went on Joe Rogan's podcast: A Grok summary: I find this to be quite a facile assessment. From the vid comments: "My personal opinion, Dan is consciously subversive. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing. He likes the organization, but doesn't believe in it, and would see it hollowed out to a husk. Where all spirituality and meaning is stripped and all that is left is the oranizaion. He would cut the rose from the plant that produced it, and intellectually monitor it as it withered." I share that assessment, unfortunately. I think Dan is subversive. He's not even shy about it, really. How else to characterize someone who professes to be a "believing" Latter-day Saint repeatedly declaring (bragging?) on prominent social media platforms that he is "offering ... reasons" for Latter-day Saints to abandon their faith? This is intellectually lazy, IMO. He's far too prone to make conclusory declarations with no real effort to explain how he gets there. Apparently it's a "Trust me, I'm a scholar" sort of thing. He expressed this same sentiment (probably doing something right if I’m offering {} reasons for people to feel justified in not remaining faithful") on Dehlin's podcast. So it wasn't a one-off. Disappointing that Dan has done this, but not surprising. I hope he finds his way back. Thanks, -Smac

I am wondering if there will be more than one of this kind of event. One that will interface with the temple complex in Independence Missouri?

I'm glad you have your priorities straight! (Seriously, though: Good for you. I hope you and the grands enjoyed your day!)

This comes to mind as an explanation: “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

@longview One may reasonably ask to where this city will return. Joseph Young Sr. notes that “Joseph Smith said . . . in the hearing of some of the saints still surviving, that the City of Enoch would again take its place in the identical spot from which it had been detached, now forming that chasm of the earth, filled with water, called the Gulf of Mexico” (12; see also Widtsoe 365). https://rsc.byu.edu/book-mormon-fourth-nephi-through-moroni-zion-destruction/zion-zion-zion-keys-understanding-ether-13

I'll warn you in advance that I know this is all going to seem too trite, too pat, and too "just-so." I wouldn't blame anyone for getting frustrated with me because of that. I have discussed the litany of challenges I have experienced many times here. I won't bore you by reciting it, at least, not in full and not in detail, again. I am aware, fully and acutely, that many have and do experience challenges I can scarsely fathom. Those who endure, and who have endured, what I scarsely can fathom and who retain a long-range/eternal perspective have my everlasting respect. That said, I can only speak to what I know. Premature birth, highly questionable survival as a newborn, permanent mortal disability, two failed major operations (among several others) that set me back, in some ways permanently at least until the resurrection, to which I say, "Hasten the day!" But ... I suppose not. As Alma the Younger said, "But behold, I am a man, and do sin in my wish; for I ought to be content with the things which the Lord hath allotted unto me." Alma 29:3. I have labors to perform in the garden of life, for how long I know not, to what purpose, often, I know not. Spectacularly failed professional aspirations, and the only answer I've ever gotten as to "why" is, "Ken, you were where I wanted you while you were getting the degree." The "dog" of clinical depression alternating between nipping at my heels and threatening to devour me whole—until, mercifully, it simply ... stopped chasing me. I have no idea how or why that happened. I know only that, ultimately, it had nothing to do with more professionals with more brooms than I can count striving earnestly to help me "chase the bats from my belfry." They simply ... left. Is it something that simply comes with advancing age and wisdom to know to "not sweat the small stuff"—and to know that most all of it is "small stuff"? With wisdom to know to "not get caught up in the thick of thin things"—and to know that most all of them are "thin things"? Someday, sometime in the [too? not too?] distant future, I look forward to a fascinating, illuminating, Personal Priesthood Interview with Someone Who Knows All of the Whys and Wherefores that, as yet, I do not. As for why He hasn't told me yet, I have no reason to believe He won't—when He thinks I'm ready ("Ay, there's the rub!"). Have I simply gotten more adept at transferring more of the burden to Him whose yoke He invited me to take upon myself (see Matthew 11:28-30)? Perhaps. Incidentally, recently, I came to a epiphany regarding that scripture. Perhaps it would make all of you more insightful folks slap your foreheads and exclaim, "Duh, Ken!": Christ isn't asking us to take on an additional burden in that scripture. He is offering to shoulder ours! After all, isn't that what a yoke does, enabling animals to do far more together than either would be able to do alone. In a sense, the three-act—premortal, mortal, postmortal—play isn't fair because we don't remember the premortal first act, and the postmortal third act hasn't happened yet. Others' mileage may, and likely does, vary, and that's fine. I understand that completely. But I trust The Playright. What else can I do?

The peace and calm that I feel from the presence of God, is more of a spiritual inner feeling. Rather than a general peace of calm, that I would feel from a walk in the woods or hike up a mountain.

How is this different though from say a walk in the woods or a hike to a mountain top that generates a sense of peace and calm?

Loving God as our heavenly Father, and trusting that he will at some point do what is right, for us his earthly children. I do not believe to be lop sided.

A specific sense of peace and calm.

i have lived approximately half my life in the Church doing all I was told God wanted me to do. Trying diligently to live a life that I was told God expected me to do. But in so many ways, it was not a life I enjoyed or wanted. When I came out and was severed from the Church, I felt loss and confused. It was like starting the second half of my life all over again, but this time without the Church and a much less structured life of what I was taught God wanted me to do. From where I sit now, I sometimes can not believe how much happier I am and really how joyous my life has become. Certainly finding a companion who I can love completely and who loves me for who I really am and not some forced false version of me. If the scripture that teaches wickedness never was happiness, then it is so difficult for me to think that I am some how more wicked than I was and still be so much more joyful. I learned to not trust God. He seems ok with that as well. Maybe the true test in life is to learn to stand on my own two feet, be responsible for my life and not rely on a God that was not all that consistent in giving me any help in solving what I thought was flaws in my spirit. Turns out, acceptance of reality seems to work better than pretending that God has all the answers.

I assume you are just expressing your own opinion, but if you are making a factual claim, I would be interested in you showing what his predictions were and where they fell flat so we can judge if your claim is falling flat or not.

I don’t accept the false dichotomy that there is a binary choice between God’s plan and embracing nihilism. Most atheists aren’t nihilists. Just because Hobbes had a negative take on people doesn’t mean I have to. And Hobbes ignores the fact that humans have always had societies and some form of government even if it was more informal so when did that nihilistic take apply? You are right that I put it as a choice, and that atheism and nihilism are not synonymous. I was not describing that. I was describing the choice I can actually live with. I do not think the only alternatives on offer to the world are the Plan of Salvation and despair. People find meaning in family, work, beauty, and one another, and I do not need Hobbes to be right about human nature to take that seriously. What I cannot do is treat the death of a child as nothing but an event. Disease and disaster do not have a face. A person who harms a child does. Both are terrible. One of them leaves me asking not only what happened, but what it is for, and whether the child is finished. Hobbes was describing life without a commonwealth, not proving that such a life ever existed in pure form. You are right that people have always lived in some society. I was using him for a narrower point. A society can reduce the fear of violent death. It cannot tell me that a child who died of disease is anything other than gone. That is the part I cannot settle by politics or by goodwill. So the dichotomy was mine. Nihilism, as I meant it, is the conclusion that there is no purpose in the loss, no continuation, and no one to whom the child still matters. I do not have to accuse you of holding that. I only know that, when I follow the question all the way out, that is the place I refuse to stop. The Plan of Salvation is the account that lets me say the child is not finished, and that the loss is real without being the last word. That is faith. It is also the only account I have found that I can hold without going cold. Thank you for sharing your perspective. -Smac

Whataboutism about how childish you are? Al Gore's shenanigans was ON POINT showing how ridiculous his fake predictions were as every one of them fell flat. Even over decades his hysteria became tiresome.

Hence the need to dispassionately evaluate the evidence. That is utterly wrong. https://people.com/cornell-jane-doe-s-family-swatted-at-home-12164905 Not according to her attorney. You misunderstand. By "utterly wrong" I meant "Swatting was an utterly wrong thing to do." I was condemning what happened to her family, not disputing it. Which you did just now by saying that mobocratic outrage was “utterly wrong”. Not at all. I join you in condemning what happened to her family. Unreservedly. That was an utterly wrong thing for a person to have done. I did not. You have materially misunderstood my statement. Part of the challenge in modern discourse is that we are too inclined toward using provocative and inflammatory terms that really deserve to retain their original meaning and purpose. "Nazi." "Fascist." "Rapist." Rhetorical overuse cheapens and dilutes the meaning of these words. I think it's hard to construe her 2024 statement in the way that you want. She does not describe any nonconsensual conduct (apart from her having swatted the hand of Male Number 2, just prior to engaging in a threesome with him). By her own statement (voluntary, sworn, and heavily modified by her), she was "pretty ok with having this {first} threesome." As to the second threesome: I don't see any indication from her statement that this was a nonconsensual incident. The third threesome: Again, no indication of a lack of consent. The only reference to consent is that when she said she "was tired," the two men "stopped the threesome with [her]." I would like to see the evidence for that. By "invited more guys" I assume you are referencing the text message. That was sent by Jonathan Newell, not all 7 of the accused. This is a difficult topic. I think we need to address it with decorum and sobriety, and not with inflammatory language, emotionalisms and mobocratic rage. I utterly condemn any harassment or threat of this sort. I think this story has created ample grounds for skepticism as to the veracity of Jane Doe's claims. That's no excuse for abuse or harassment of any sort. Again: I think we need to set aside emotionalisms and mobocratic outrage, uphold the rule of law, let those with training and expertise evaluate the evidence in a clinical and dispassionate way, and pray - both civilly and religiously - that justice is sought and achieved. Thanks, -Smac

The forget makes sense to me if part of mortality is about us learning to understand the difference between God’s influence and our own nature. I came to this idea by remembering what it was like to grow up in my home with a father who came across as if it never even occurred to him to ask himself if he was sure about something. Not domineering so much as just purely dominant by his simple existence. It helped he was extremely capable in most things and the stuff he wasn’t (dealing with emotions) wasn’t something we had language for until much older. That apparently inherent confidence gave us kids a very strong sense of stability and security even though Mom’s situation was all over the place due to her health. After leaving home, I figured out how truly dependent and responsive I was to that aura of certainty/rightness/authority that oozed from his pores. I have both never truly trusted in my own decisions as well as also having a similar sense of certainty, so I am probably not great at judging my own ideas even if emotionally I am very confident I am much more clear sighted than the average person (my parents did teach us to be self critical in a good way, so that adds to my confidence, but I have seen the outcome of arrogant confidence, so very leery of certainty…iow, it’s complicated). Back to God…if a mortal, very limited, and error prone human can have that type of impact on less emotionally and intellectually mature humans, then my guess is even just memories of the impact of God on us would be overwhelming. They would be essentially so ‘loud’, that the noise of our own feelings and ideas would be lost. Only by extreme dampening of his presence, or rather our awareness of his presence, can we assert our own individuality. And even here our internal voice can get swallowed up by the the overwhelming or the oppressive voices surrounding us, whether individual or communal.

I don’t accept the false dichotomy that there is a binary choice between God’s plan and embracing nihilism. Most atheists aren’t nihilists. Just because Hobbes had a negative take on people doesn’t mean I have to. And Hobbes ignores the fact that humans have always had societies and some form of government even if it was more informal so when did that nihilistic take apply?

Not just stand by. Deliberately put them in harm’s way and then not intervene. An active choice not to intervene. Good point, I don’t want to do that work. That is sick. If that is the highest righteousness then the laws of the cosmos I live in are depraved and sick. The hero of Omelas isn’t to be found in the ones who walk away. It is the person who hopefully one day goes in and rescues the suffering child and lets Omelas burn it that is the result. We find God’s rest in suffering and death. That is really screwed up. I don’t find the idea that someone suffered more than me edifying anymore. I can be grateful to someone who suffered more but it seems like God’s highest honor is to suffer and die for Him. A God of Martyrdom and Pain. Why do I want to be like this guy? Then my eternal reward is to allow the suffering of my own children forever and ever because that is the only way to find happiness and eventually get to do the same to my grandchildren? What kind of screwed up MLM is this? Excuse me, I would like off of the ride now please!

The video did lay out the timeline you say they omitted and I suspect the DA is playing ‘fast and loose’ with the facts. https://people.com/cornell-jane-doe-s-family-swatted-at-home-12164905 Not according to her attorney. Which you did just now by saying that mobocratic outrage was “utterly wrong”. You dismiss the mobocratic injury/murder attempt on the female victim and then tut about people being upset at the male perpetrators who, even if this isn’t something that can be criminally prosecuted, are still RAPISTS. She appears to have consented to the first two guys…..dubiously. Then those guys invited more guys in on the fun. You know who does that? Big Rapey Raper McRapersons. And those offended by the idea that they might be held accountable are targeting the victim with violence…..repeatedly. This is not new. This happens in many publicized sexual assault cases. The misogynists act to intimidate, silence, harm, or kill the victim. IT BAD. IT RAPE CULTURE. Please stop carrying water for them. K thx bye

I appreciate your thoughtful comments. I have more thoughts but I have grandkids here and pizza is on its way! 😁