Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 minute ago, cinepro said: These guys will be thrilled. The fact that they are apparently a schismatic break-off group from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would indicate that we have at least as much claim on the name as they do. Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: The fact that it is published on the updated Newsroom style guide (and that the earlier iteration has been there for years) would indicate that it is earnestly intended for external consumption as well. Well, I guess I just assume the Brethren are realists about how likely this is to be adopted by outside organizations. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Well, I guess I just assume the Brethren are realists about how likely this is to be adopted by outside organizations. One characteristic that marks a prophet of God is his determination to follow and express the will of God regardless of how popular he expects it to be. 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, cinepro said: CFR that I have ever claimed to be "wise." CFR that I ever sad you have ever made that claim. Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: One characteristic that marks a prophet of God is his determination to follow and express the will of God regardless of how popular he expects it to be. I expect God is a realist, as well. If it's His will, then so be it. I'm just talking about the practical effects, not opining on the validity of President Nelson's impressions. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Sky said: Why don’t we also get rid of the “I’m a Mormon” campaign and Mormon.org? At least it would be consistent. When it’s inconsistently applied, it just confuses people. As I pointed out above, President Nelson said: Quote We have work before us to bring ourselves in harmony with His will. In recent weeks, various Church leaders and departments have initiated the necessary steps to do so. Additional information about this important matter will be made available in the coming months. Stay tuned. Edited August 16, 2018 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
Popular Post cinepro Posted August 16, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 45 minutes ago, ksfisher said: So are you saying President Nelson is wrong to say this? I wouldn't say "wrong", since I don't know that this is a situation with some sort of objective "right" and "wrong." If this is what he wants to focus on, then great. But like I said, this is branding. That might seem a little "Babylon" to our tender ears, but that is how what the Church is called operates in 2018. It exists in our society in which people identify other groups and people, and it operates as a "brand", and the principles of branding definitely apply. Pretending they don't is just facile. The oddest thing to me is the request that the Church be referred to as "the restored Church of Jesus Christ". First of all, that's really not very short. Second, while it may seem to make perfect sense to the guys sitting in the COB, I think it might sound a little odd to the rest of the world. It would be like Apple saying "when referring to the company, please call us "The Apple Corporation of Cupertino, CA", or for short, "The best company that just happened to invent the PC, smartphone, and Tablet computing." I think most peoples' reaction would be to just keep calling them "Apple." Hopefully we'll get an additional request to only call President Nelson "President Nelson", or for short, in the second reference he may be "The Prophet Russell M. Nelson". The third reference should be to "The Lord's Anointed Seer in our Day", and fourth and subsequent references should be to "Mouthpiece of the on-high, even Russell M. Nelson." Edited August 16, 2018 by cinepro 7 Link to comment
Popular Post Sky Posted August 16, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted August 16, 2018 If we want to be referred to by our actual name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Latter-day Saints, then we need to actually act like followers/decipiles of Christ. Walk the walk, not just talk the talk, so to speak. I don’t care if somebody calls me a Mormon. I’m more concerned that I’m actually following Christ. 5 Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Just now, cinepro said: Hopefully we'll get an additional request to only call President Nelson "President Nelson", or for short "The Prophet Russell M. Nelson", "The Lord's Anointed Seer in our Day", or "Mouthpiece of the on-high, even Russell M. Nelson." I do love that "even" usage. As a friend of mine put it, "I am going to drive my other car today, even the PT Cruiser." 3 Link to comment
cinepro Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: I do love that "even" usage. As a friend of mine put it, "I am going to drive my other car today, even the PT Cruiser." President Nelson even used it in the news release https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/name-of-the-church Quote The Lord has impressed upon my mind the importance of the name He has revealed for His Church, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 1 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 minute ago, cinepro said: I wouldn't say "wrong", since I don't know that this is a situation with some sort of objective "right" and "wrong." If this is what he wants to focus on, then great. But like I said, this is branding. That might seem a little "Babylon" to our tender ears, but that is how what the Church is called operates in 2018. It exists in our society in which people identify other groups and people, and it operates as a "brand", and the principles of branding definitely apply. Pretending they don't is just facile. I think you are neglecting or ignoring the fact that the Church is not jettisoning "Mormon" as a brand. From the Newsroom style guide: Quote "Mormon" is correctly used in proper names such as the Book of Mormon or when used as an adjective in such historical expressions as "Mormon Trail." Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Sky said: If we want to be referred to by our actual name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or Latter-day Saints, then we need to actually act like followers/decipiles of Christ. Walk the walk, not just talk the talk, so to speak. Well said. Quote I don’t care if somebody calls me a Mormon. I’m more concerned that I’m actually following Christ. I think it's OK that you don't care if others call you that. What is important, it seems to me, is what you yourself as a follower of Christ choose to do in implementing this guideline that President Nelson said the Lord has impressed upon his mind. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, cinepro said: President Nelson even used it in the news release https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/name-of-the-church I think that's what jkwilliams was alluding to. Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I think that's what jkwilliams was alluding to. I was referring to cinepro's "Mouthpiece of the on-high, even Russell M. Nelson." But it is a happy coincidence that it's in the press release. It's a usage I almost never see outside of an LDS context. Edited August 16, 2018 by jkwilliams Link to comment
ksfisher Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 12 minutes ago, cinepro said: I wouldn't say "wrong", since I don't know that this is a situation with some sort of objective "right" and "wrong." If this is what he wants to focus on, then great. But like I said, this is branding. That might seem a little "Babylon" to our tender ears, but that is how what the Church is called operates in 2018. It exists in our society in which people identify other groups and people, and it operates as a "brand", and the principles of branding definitely apply. Pretending they don't is just facile. The oddest thing to me is the request that the Church be referred to as "the restored Church of Jesus Christ". First of all, that's really not very short. Second, while it may seem to make perfect sense to the guys sitting in the COB, I think it might sound a little odd to the rest of the world. It would be like Apple saying "when referring to the company, please call us "The Apple Corporation of Cupertino, CA", or for short, "The best company that just happened to invent the PC, smartphone, and Tablet computing." I think most peoples' reaction would be to just keep calling them "Apple." Hopefully we'll get an additional request to only call President Nelson "President Nelson", or for short, in the second reference he may be "The Prophet Russell M. Nelson". The third reference should be to "The Lord's Anointed Seer in our Day", and fourth and subsequent references should be to "Mouthpiece of the on-high, even Russell M. Nelson." Lotta respect going on here. 3 Link to comment
Popular Post jkwilliams Posted August 16, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 9 minutes ago, ksfisher said: Lotta respect going on here. Respect or not, the suggested usage is not very descriptive and as cinepro rightly points out, causes some branding problems. Goodbye mormon.org and "I'm a Mormon" and "Meet the Mormons." And the suggested "shortened references" are so generic they don't denote anything close to the LDS church (I know, I shouldn't even use that). If I say "The Church of Jesus Christ" to 100 non-members, I doubt even 1 would make the connection to the LDS church. It would be like Bolivia, which recently changed its official name from Republica de Bolivia to Estado Plurinacional de Bolivia. Imagine that the Bolivian government said they no longer want to be referred to as Bolivia but as the full name, and the shortened references should be to "Estado Plurinacional" or "El Estado." Would anyone associate those references with Bolivia? Of course not. In the same way, "The Church of Jesus Christ" could refer to a whole host of things, and probably the last thing people would think of is the LDS church or anything related to Mormonism. The church can do as it likes, but the likelihood that anyone else will adopt this style is pretty darn slim. Edited August 16, 2018 by jkwilliams 5 Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: I was referring to cinepro's "Mouthpiece of the on-high, even Russell M. Nelson." But it is a happy coincidence that it's in the press release. It's a usage I almost never see outside of an LDS context. Well, then you apparently missed his own allusion to the official statement from President Nelson. It is a reflection of scriptural phrasing. I'll try to find an example. Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Well, then you apparently missed his own allusion to the official statement from President Nelson. It is a reflection of scriptural phrasing. I'll try to find an example. Apparently I did miss it. But yes, "even" following a comma is a scriptural construction. It just always sounds affected to me when someone uses it. Edited August 16, 2018 by jkwilliams Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Apparently I did miss it. Here's one. Doctrine and Covenants 1:16, "...shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall." I'll post others as I find them. ETA: Here are others: Doctrine and Covenants 5:17, "... they shall be born of me, even of water and of the Spirit." Doctrine and Covenants 17:2, "And it is by your faith that you shall obtain a view of them, even by that faith which was held by the prophets of old." Doctrine and Covenants 51:4, "... a writing that shall secure unto him his portion, that he shall hold it, even this right and this inheritance in the church, ..." John 3:13, "... he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven" Acts 2:39, "... to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 9:17, "... Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me." Genesis 21:10, "... shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac." Edited August 16, 2018 by Scott Lloyd Link to comment
jkwilliams Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Just now, Scott Lloyd said: Here's one. Doctrine and Covenants 1:16, "...shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall." I'll post others as I find them. Yes, it occurs fairly often in scripture. Just still sounds like an affectation to me when someone uses it now. But that's just me. Link to comment
Scott Lloyd Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 28 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Yes, it occurs fairly often in scripture. Just still sounds like an affectation to me when someone uses it now. But that's just me. I can understand how some might view it that way. On the other hand, for one who professes to speak in the name of God, it does not necessarily seem affected to me that he would on occasion speak in a voice that is imitative or allusive to the terminology, phrasing, sentence construction, etc., of holy writ. Edited August 16, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1 Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: I think it's OK that you don't care if others call you that. What is important, it seems to me, is what you yourself as a follower of Christ choose to do in implementing this guideline that President Nelson said the Lord has impressed upon his mind. I wonder if we can just call ourselves Christians. “Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” is so long. I hate saying it. Even saying “I’m a Latter-day Saint” is a bit much for my mouth. Any precedent there? Do LDS church leaders frown when we just call ourselves Christians? Link to comment
pogi Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Sky said: • Please avoid the term “Mormonism.” It is inaccurate. When a shortened version is needed, please use “The Church of Jesus Christ” or the “restored Church of Jesus Christ”. That will be difficult because, to me, "Mormonism" encompasses so much more than "The Church of Jesus Christ". To me, The Church of Jesus Christ refers to the organization and it's official and correlated teachings, whereas "Mormonism" (in my mind) encompasses the culture, folk doctrines, and non-official personal beliefs and latitudes espoused by individual members which belong to the organization. It is not simply what is taught officially, but what is practiced individually. While not officially recognized by the church, these latitudes in belief are allowed to the members by the church and therefore fall under the umbrella and practice of "Mormonism", but do not necessarily fall under the umbrella of "The Church of Jesus Christ". So how are we to reference the much wider net of Mormonism without using the word? Edited August 16, 2018 by pogi 4 Link to comment
pogi Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: Any precedent there? Do LDS church leaders frown when we just call ourselves Christians? I don't think they frown upon it. It just isn't very specific. Link to comment
Popular Post smac97 Posted August 16, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted August 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Respect or not, the suggested usage is not very descriptive and as cinepro rightly points out, causes some branding problems. Goodbye mormon.org and "I'm a Mormon" and "Meet the Mormons." And the suggested "shortened references" are so generic they don't denote anything close to the LDS church (I know, I shouldn't even use that). If I say "The Church of Jesus Christ" to 100 non-members, I doubt even 1 would make the connection to the LDS church. You are quite right on all points. Here's a bit of speculation as to perhaps why the Church is moving away from "Mormon" (or, more specifically, why the Lord is prompting Pres. Nelson to move away from it). It's a little complex, so bear with me. Here goes... 1. The Church has a presence in Chinese-speaking countries and communities. Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, and throughout the West (U.S., Canada, Australia, etc.). The Church has a few congregations in China, but they are mostly (exclusively?) for expatriates. 2. The LDS Church does not have an appreciable presence in Mainland China (population: 1.37 billion). 3. People in the highly-westernized nation of Taiwan (where I served as a missionary years ago) had virtually no frame of reference for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Most folks just generically added us into 基督教 ("Jīdū jiào" - "Christ[ian] Church"), along with Catholics, Protestants, etc. 4. The Church has studiously sought to avoid its nickname in Chinese. "Mormon" is translated phonetically into 摩門教("Mó mén jiào" - "Mormon Church"). The characters used here, 摩門 ("Mó mén"), literally mean "rub" (摩) and "door" or "gate" ("門"). The pronunciation of these characters, "Mó mén" leaves some real room for confusion for a Chinese speaking person who is only hearing the words as they are verbalized, and not seeing the characters ("摩門"), and who has no inkling that there is an American-based religious group with a nickname of 摩門教("Mó mén jiào" - "Mormon Church"). A Chinese-speaking person in such circumstances, upon hearing "Mó mén jiào," might be inclined to think that some other character than "摩" is being referenced. Such a person might, in fact, think of the character "魔" ("Mó" - "Devil"). If you compare the two "Mó" characters side by side, they are pretty similar (they have several components in common): "摩" and "魔." And when spoken, they have the exact same pronunciation ("Mó"). But their meanings are very different. Here's how it plays out: 摩門教 = "Mó mén jiào" = "Mormon (a word transliterated from English) Church." Chinese people are accustomed to not interpreting phonetically translated words and phrases literally. "麦当劳" ("Màidāngláo") literally means "wheat ('麦') when/be/equal/work as ('当') labor/work ('劳'), but everyone in Taiwan knows that "麦当劳" ("Màidāngláo") is the translated name of a restaurant: McDonald's. So as regarding the translation into Chinese of the word "Mormon," 摩門教("Mó mén jiào") would literally mean "Rub[bed] door church" or some such. Kinda weird, but innocuous. And once it's understood to be a reference to a word translated from English, everything starts to make sense. 魔門教 = "Mó mén jiào" = Well, this is where things get dicey. Again, when "Mó mén jiào" is spoken, and when the person listening is from Mainland China and is not aware of the American church having a nickname of "Mormon" which has been translated into Chinese, may jump to the conclusion that "Mó mén jiào" includes the character "魔" ("Mó" - "Devil"). So when spoken in Mandarin, the Church's nickname of "Mormon Church" ("Mó mén jiào") may come across as sounding something like "Devil's Door Church" (or "Church of the Devil's Gate," whatever). 5. Pres. Nelson speaks Mandarin Chinese. He is also well-regarded by some in the governmental and medical communities of China (see, e.g., here). I think it may be reasonable to suspect that Pres. Nelson is aware that "Mormon" may represents a fairly significant "branding" problem if and when the Church is authorized to send missionaries into China, establish branches/wards, etc. Imagine what the average Chinese person would say if they heard a knock on their door, and opened it to see two gangly Westerners speaking in mediocre Mandarin and saying something that sounds like "Hello, we are missionaries from the Church of the Devil's Gate, and we would like to share a message with you. May we come in?" 6. Resolving the Church's prospective "branding" problem in Mandarin would, I think, entail moving away from using "Mormon" ("摩門" - "Mó mén") as the name of the Church. 7. Resolving this problem would probably need to start with changing (or attempting to change) the way the Church is identified in Western media outlets. Hence the need to ditch the familiar "Mormon" brand. So is it possible that today's change in "branding" is part of the Church is setting things in order so as to prepare for the Church's introduction into Mainland China? Who knows? -Smac P.S. I have no idea what to do with "The Book of Mormon," which has the same sort of translation difficulties as described above. Perhaps the Church will try to get away from characters pronounced "Mó" in favor of something that doesn't sound like "Devil." 7 Link to comment
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