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Could Joseph Smith be a "Fallen Prophet"


Guest Lori

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I have studdied the OT. Why dont you go study it?

"multiplying and replenish the earth" was the covenant that Noah and his children made with the Lord. It was the Law. Not merely Custom. :P

Abrahm was Noahs great-great- ... grandson.

BTW Nice Polemic. <_<

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When Noah came out of the Ark they covenanted and where commanded to multiply and replenish.  Similarly Adam was commanded the Same.

It was the Law then and still is, otherwise the species dies with the last eunuch SR.

I asked where Abraham was commanded to have children. You did not provide that. I fully expected this. Even the D&C indicates the child was a promise.

sr

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I have studdied the OT. Why dont you go study it?

"multiplying and replenish the earth" was the covenant that Noah and his children made with the Lord. It was the Law. Not merely Custom. :P

Abrahm was Noahs great-great- ... grandson.

BTW Nice Polemic. <_<

You don't even know how to spell. I'm sorry, but I just don't think you really understand ancient cultures.

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Why would God promise abraham that he would have children if he wasnt out there in the desert pleading with the Lord to open Sarahs womb.

God commanded... Sarah Gave her handmaid by Law which was given by father Noah from God.

And for their faithfulness to his command... he performs a miracle and opens her womb.

Do you think for a minute that the Lord would have done it, if Abraham would have just kicked back and said. oh... the Lord will put an alien in Sarahs belly. We dont got to do a thing. His purposes will come true no matter what we do?

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Why would God promise abraham that he would have children if he wasnt out there in the desert pleading with the Lord to open Sarahs womb.

God commanded... Sarah Gave her handmaid by Law which was given by father Noah from God.

And for their faithfulness to his command... he performs a miracle and opens her womb.

Do you think for a minute that the Lord would have done it Abraham would have just kicked back and said.  oh... the Lord will put an alien in Sarahs belly.  We dont got to do a thing.  His purposes will come true no matter what we do?

Zak, there was no command for Abraham to take Hagar. There is no command in the bible to practice plural marraige. You may as well deal with that.

sr

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No you should deal with the fact the the Law was to replenish the earth.

Sarah and Abraham complied with the law. And God gave the increase.

:P

The D&C even says exactly this!

D&C 132

34 God commanded Abraham, [through Noah to have children and replenish the earth] and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

No contradiction.

Joseph really didnt need the other wifes because Emma was fertile. She produced an heir.

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Gen 9

1 AND God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.

2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

5 And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man

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No you should deal with the fact the the Law was to replenish the earth.

Sarah and Abraham complied with the law. And God gave the increase.

:P

The D&C even says exactly this!

D&C 132

34 God commanded Abraham, [through Noah to have children and replenish the earth] and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

No contradiction.

Joseph really didnt need the other wifes because Emma was fertile. She produced an heir.

Zak,

I am not sure I am follwing you here.

If Joseph had a wife that gave him children then what did he need 25 more for?

Same with Brigham and crew.

Teancum

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No you should deal with the fact the the Law was to replenish the earth.

Sarah and Abraham complied with the law.  And God gave the increase.

:P

The D&C even says exactly this!

D&C 132

34 God commanded Abraham, [through Noah to have children and replenish the earth] and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.

No contradiction.

Joseph really didnt need the other wifes because Emma was fertile.  She produced an heir.

Zak,

I am not sure I am follwing you here.

If Joseph had a wife that gave him children then what did he need 25 more for?

Same with Brigham and crew.

Teancum

Simply because God said to. It was a commandment of God. Who are you or me or him to question the Lord? <_<

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Quote (Lori)

QUOTE (trim @ Apr 13 2005, 04:05 PM)

In one of the earlier posts Lori seemed to express some concern that she would have to practice polygamy in the world hereafter.

I heard the same kind of thing for years, but it seems to me that you would not be forced to do something that would bring misery to you. Something about the proper use of agency would seem to be in order.

I don't know of any authoritative statement suggesting that the highest order of the celestial kingdom is a club for polygamists and only for polygamists. 

I read this and was shocked. Was this just speaking as a man or a prophet?

Shocked?? Really??

Quote (Lori)

How am I supposed to know when I am doing church history which is which? It seems like most of these statements were made to the body of the church.

I can usually tell when problematic statements from church historical figures are "of man" rather than prophetic because my shoulder starts to twitch when I read them. You might say it is moved by the spirit. :P<_<

I have noticed that Brigham Young's forceful speaking style was a little over the top sometimes. Consequently, many successive leaders would promote his thoughts as authoritative. Suddenly you have heresay/folklore/psuedo doctrine as binding on the church. I would be a little worried about establishing something as doctrine if BY was the only source and it seemed to conflict with common spiritual sense.

Brigham Young's style causes problems for today's members in terms of understanding church history and distinguishing doctrine from policies and practices. That same style is also why many critics love to take BY text out of context and make it a pretext.

No doubt BY was a great man and he defended his beliefs about polygamy ferociously, but certainly he would agree that what it takes to be a God is God-like character with or without polygamy.

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Hi,

joseph Smith Jr. was human & do doubt made mistakes. If he was a fallen prophet that would only show he was a human being. Bible prophets were human to.

Sincerely,

Dale

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Joseph Smith Jr. was human & do doubt made mistakes. If he was a fallen prophet that would only show he was a human being. Bible prophets were human too.

Is this another way of saying "Because they are all human, all prophets can be considered 'fallen'"?

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Yes thats how I read the scripture Teancum.

Now... If Emma would have been barren. Under OT law. She would have been obligated to give a handmaid to Joseph.

Thats what Sarah did.

Thats what Jacobs wifes did as well. And what happens... his two sister brides and the maids get into a bare foot brawl producing the 12 tribes.

Just clarify a bit further please.

So, since Emma was not barren are you saying JS should NOT have taken another wife?

Teancum

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Joseph Smith Jr. was human & do doubt made mistakes. If he was a fallen prophet that would only show he was a human being. Bible prophets were human too.

Is this another way of saying "Because they are all human, all prophets can be considered 'fallen'"?

Arnt we all...? :P

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Joseph Smith Jr. was human & do doubt made mistakes. If he was a fallen prophet that would only show he was a human being. Bible prophets were human too.

Is this another way of saying "Because they are all human, all prophets can be considered 'fallen'"?

Arnt we all...?

That's not what we're talking about and you know it. We are not all called to be prophets, we do not all claim to have divine communion with God for the benefit of the whole human family, and we do not all have the authority to speak for God as the official leader and mouthpiece of God's church.

You have the most bizarre way of mixing contexts to the point that your assertions are completely absurd in the strictest and most literal sense. Of course we are all "fallen" in the sense that we are human, and of course we could bring up the fact that we're all entitled to "personal prophesy" or whatever. But this connection was not in question. Certainly you know what you're doing here, so why do you insist on making these absurd connections that only detract from the conversation? Why don't you contribute instead of subtract from whatever progress we're making in this thread?

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That's not what we're talking about and you know it. We are not all called to be prophets, we do not all claim to have divine communion with God for the benefit of the whole human family, and we do not all have the authority to speak for God as the official leader and mouthpiece of God's church.

We're not?

Acts 2

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

If you got the Ghost you got the gift. :P

Yes we don't have the "keys" but thats completely different.

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