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Could Joseph Smith be a "Fallen Prophet"


Guest Lori

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Regarding whether Joseph Smith had sex with his plural wives (or whether he "married" them at all) and sired children by them: If he did not, that would make Joseph Smith the least successful of all the latter-day prophets in living the commandment, would it not?

I mean, the prophet who restored the practice and was the first to live it, the man who knew more about it than anyone, for some reason didn't sleep with his wives or sire their children? If not, then where did Brigham Young, John Taylor, and all the others get the silly idea that they ought to sleep with their wives? On what basis should we think that Joseph did not do what the other prophets did?

The biggest FACT we have that Joseph slept with his wives is Section 132, where "espousing" additional wives is given in a clearly sexual context.

The next biggest FACT we have that he slept with his wives is that plural marriage, anciently and in the restored form, is all about multiplying posterity. It wasn't given as a means to make old maids feel better about themselves or to help populate the church any faster (unless they were recruiting women at a rate far ahead of the recruitment of men, which they weren't. Any anthropologist can debunk this silly claim). It was about posterity. So, what, Joseph was unable to partake in that blessing, despite what Jesus tells him in Section 132? This argument also supports the claim that Joseph did sire children by his plural wives, for that, again, was the purpose of plural marriage.

The third biggest FACT we have that Joseph slept with his plural wives is the fact that his plural wives said he had sex with them and at least one of them claimed to have sired his child. This isn't a matter of speculation; these women signed affidavits and had no reason to lie about their relationship with Joseph. On the other hand, there are no such affidavits or claims by Joseph or his wives that he didn't sleep with them.

Hence, to suggest that we "just don't know" whether Joseph slept with or sired children by his wives, on the basis that there are no facts, demonstrates an odd inability to see the facts for what they are. For people to defend plural marriage on the basis that Abraham practiced it, and that Joseph's revelation must be from God, and then deny that Joseph actually practiced it, is a huge logical inconsistency.

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Hence, to suggest that we "just don't know" whether Joseph slept with or sired children by his wives, on the basis that there are no facts, demonstrates an odd inability to see the facts for what they are. For people to defend plural marriage on the basis that Abraham practiced it, and that Joseph's revelation must be from God, and then deny that Joseph actually practiced it, is a huge logical inconsistency.

I find this logic intreging....

We have to find a street sign with Zarahemla and 1st Nephi written in reformed egyptian to prove the Book of Mormon. Yet with Joseph... he's tried sentenced and convicted on the whim of a word. No DNA no nothing.

The incosistancy is illogical yes. Thanks for pointing that out.

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We have to find a street sign with Zarahemla and 1st Nephi written in reformed egyptian to prove the Book of Mormon. Yet with Joseph... he's tried sentenced and convicted on the whim of a word. No DNA no nothing.

The incosistancy is illogical yes. Thanks for pointing that out.

We agree on this: The sample argument you give makes no sense at all.

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Ah but it does.

Critics say for the book of Mormon to be true we have to find a street sign or something or other. No amount of Parallels or witness evidence can prove it.

Yet... witness "heresay" is being used to convict Joseph.

And the Jury is out on the DNA evidence.

Dont get me wrong... I know perfectly well he had relations with his wifes.

Its just intresting what people beleive constitutes Solid evidence.

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Jarrod:

I don't see any logical inconsistancy.

Some of the prophets of the OT had many children, some had only 2, some even less.

The measure of any prophet is not HOW MANY, if any, children survived to be recorded about. But whether they were willing to do what God asked them to do.

Exactly. Amen!

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Some of the prophets of the OT had many children, some had only 2, some even less.

The measure of any prophet is not HOW MANY, if any, children survived to be recorded about. But whether they were willing to do what God asked them to do.

I'm with you 100%. I am not suggesting Joseph should have had many wives or children (though Brigham might have thought otherwise). I'm saying that the commandment required it, and this is the basis for thinking that he did have relations with his wives.

And while we agree that the measure of a prophet, or anyone, is not in how many children they have, there is no doubt that the purpose of plural marriage is to have more. This makes the picture somewhat blurry, because we know that there is supposed to be added glory by taking additional wives and having additional children. Joseph amd Brigham both taught that there was some correlation between the number of wives & children you have, and the glory and dominion you receive. But the correlation appears to be that more wives means more dominion, while practicing it at all is what constitutes righteousness.

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We have to find a street sign with Zarahemla and 1st Nephi written in reformed egyptian to prove the Book of Mormon. Yet with Joseph... he's tried sentenced and convicted on the whim of a word. No DNA no nothing.

If by "tried and convicted" you mean "accused of having sex with his plural wives" without the benefit of DNA evidence, you are missing the inconsistency in this as well. That is to say, if you are willing to believe that Native Americans are Lamanites no matter what the DNA record says, yet disbelieve Joseph Smith obtained the posterity that Jesus promised him because there is no DNA evidence, you are not being consistent. You're asking to have it "both ways."

Why would any devout Mormon think that the idea of Joseph Smith having sex with his plural wives in some way disparages him? It doesn't, by the standards of Mormon scripture and doctrine. If anything, Joseph would be exonerated by this fact. But for some reason you deny that it's possible, despite the testimonies of his wives. For some reason, you think this disparages Joseph. Unbelievable.

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Ah... but you are missing an important fact.

The DNA evidence doesnt show anything. Because we dont have a control for 600BC to compare with. (ie... you would need Lehis DNA to prove anything)

But for some reason you deny that it's possible, despite the testimonies of his wives.

Again.. I didnt deny anything.

Read my last post.

Where in I said:

Dont get me wrong... I know perfectly well he had relations with his wifes.

:P

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Jarrod:

Abraham was commanded to have plural wives, that he would be the father of many nations. He only had two children Ishmael, and Issac, that we know anything about.

I still accept him as a prophet commanded of God, even if it took 4000yrs to actually accomplish the prophecy.

We still agree 100%.

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Ah... but you are missing an important fact.

The DNA evidence doesnt show anything. Because we dont have a control for 600BC to compare with. (ie... you would need Lehis DNA to prove anything)

But for some reason you deny that it's possible, despite the testimonies of his wives.

Again.. I didnt deny anything.

Read my last post.

Where in I said:

Dont get me wrong... I know perfectly well he had relations with his wifes.

:P

You're not playing fair here; you regularly go back and alter your posts and add key points without prefacing them. You added your remarks after the fact.

I am not the first person to complain to you about this.

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Jarrod:

Abraham was commanded to have plural wives, that he would be the father of many nations. He only had two children Ishmael, and Issac, that we know anything about.

I still accept him as a prophet commanded of God, even if it took 4000yrs to actually accomplish the prophecy.

Abraham was not commanded to have plural wives. The bible never "commands" polygamy.

sr

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Niether does the D&C...

Abraham was commanded to have children... his wife was barren. So he followed the Law by taken the Handmaid and God blessed him with another Child in his old Age. Hardly something god would do for a sinner.

People do this regularly in our day and age. Procuring a seregate or adopting or by other fertility means.

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Ah... but you are missing an important fact.

The DNA evidence doesnt show anything.  Because we dont have a control for 600BC to compare with.  (ie... you would need Lehis DNA to prove anything)

But for some reason you deny that it's possible, despite the testimonies of his wives.

Again.. I didnt deny anything.

Read my last post.

Where in I said:

Dont get me wrong... I know perfectly well he had relations with his wifes.

:P

You're not playing fair here; you regularly go back and alter your posts and add key points without prefacing them. You added your remarks after the fact.

I am not the first person to complain to you about this.

I usually go back and change spelling.

Ill work on it.

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Jarrod:

Abraham was commanded to have plural wives, that he would be the father of many nations. He only had two children Ishmael, and Issac, that we know anything about.

I still accept him as a prophet commanded of God, even if it took 4000yrs to actually accomplish the prophecy.

Gosh, as I remember Genesis, it was Sarah's idea that Abraham take an additional wife (concubine) so that she could give Abraham an heir. I guess if I were 90 I'd have given up hope of ever getting pregnant too!

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Jarrod:

Abraham was commanded to have plural wives, that he would be the father of many nations. He only had two children Ishmael, and Issac, that we know anything about.

I still accept him as a prophet commanded of God, even if it took 4000yrs to actually accomplish the prophecy.

Gosh, as I remember Genesis, it was Sarah's idea that Abraham take an additional wife (concubine) so that she could give Abraham an heir. I guess if I were 90 I'd have given up hope of ever getting pregnant too!

Who gave the law of the leverite? They where following the Law that God gave.

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Niether does the D&C...

Abraham was commanded to have children... his wife was barren.  So he followed the Law by taken the Handmaid and God blessed him with another Child in his old Age.

Where is this command for Abraham to have children found?

The D&C does command by a so-called revelation to have plural wives. D&C 132:3. There is no revelation contained in the D&C which reverses this command. Only the "advice" from OD#1.

sr

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Jarrod:

Abraham was commanded to have plural wives, that he would be the father of many nations. He only had two children Ishmael, and Issac, that we know anything about.

I still accept him as a prophet commanded of God, even if it took 4000yrs to actually accomplish the prophecy.

Gosh, as I remember Genesis, it was Sarah's idea that Abraham take an additional wife (concubine) so that she could give Abraham an heir. I guess if I were 90 I'd have given up hope of ever getting pregnant too!

Who gave the law of the leverite? They where following the Law that God gave.

I really don't think you have studied anything about Biblical times. You seem to think that it was a custom for a Jewish groom to enter into plural marriage with ten virgins in the same wedding ceremony.

Abraham had nothing to do with the Levirate law. Besides, saying that God commanded polygamy through Levirate marriage is like saying that he commanded slavery through the Mosiac law. He put restraints on existing cultural practices. Since women couldn't hold property, Levirate marriage gave them a chance to inherit what was rightfully theirs.

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