USU78 Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Problem is Joseph married quite a number of women secretly, without Emma knowing. Given Emma's flipflopping on the issue, now agreeing-now disagreeing-now permitting-now refusing permission, I find the foregoing assertion not credible. If she tries to rescind prior permission by (if my ancestors' gossipy tales be true) pushing a very pregnant sister wife down the stairs of the Mansion House in Nauvoo, causing miscarriage, can she play the "wronged wife" card? Ought you, Lori, to play it on her behalf?
Zakuska Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Jealous Emma... infanticide! Everyone be ware of you green Jello salad at home making next week!
maxrep12 Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Can you point out anyone making an actual argument (as opposed to someone who simply asserts it) that there were more women then men and that this necessitated polygamy? I haven't heard that from anyone who claims to be an apologist, certainly not from FAIR or FARMS, but only (cluessless, IMHO) members. The whole idea was debunked by JOhn Widtsoe 100 years ago. Yes, quietly debunked. Missionaries today and missionaries in my day all touted the "Poor widowed sister for whom there was not a man available" line as to why polygamy existed. These clueless members that apologists/ defenders of the faith refer to, are those who fill the very chapels today. They are our current missionary force as well.Has spending time on these internet forums caused some individuals to forget what the rank and file believe and espouse as truth?The debate and conversation and beliefs that are shared here by believing lds forum members are in no way typical of the beliefs of humble ward members. No, I don't have a study to back this assertion up.
Guest Lori Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 I have never said Joseph was not a prophet. Is it not possible that he could have been deceived in his revelations? Look how many times they were changed! Have you forgotten that this was SEX! The most intimate expression of love. Women who have been cheated on say that the most frightful thing is if her husband loved the other woman. The sex itself was horrible enough to imagine, but if he loved her too, then it would destroy the relationship. I find it terribly dishonest to talk about polygamy like it's not sex. If these women needed financial or service type of support they could have had that without sex. It's also the love involved. For a man to love more than 1 woman and have sex with her would be destructive to my spirit and has nothing to do with culture. Have any of you read David WHitmer's testimony? He didn't sound like a bitter man to me. HE loved Joseph but felt he had errored when he started changing doctrines. "Some revelations are of God, some are of man, and some are of Satan." Why can't this be a possbility? Read http://www.greaterthings.com/Topical/David...htm#Chapter%208It really made this possibilty open up for me since I feel the Book of Mormon is true. Why did the Church's name change 3 times? Was God that indecisive? How can you excuse some changes to revelations and then be so sure of others?Is it possbile the women were brainwashed? They almost worshiped Joseph. He was infallible to them. They were told to enter this command or be destroyed and damned. It is not true that women had to give consent. D & C 132 is clear that if the wife didn't give her husband another wife, then he was exempt from this "law of Sarah."
Zakuska Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 It's also the love involved. For a man to love more than 1 woman and have sex with her would be destructive to my spirit and has nothing to do with culture. I feel like some of the apologist here are not being honest with this issue as it relates to a woman's heart.Could you love you sister enough to share you husband with her?When your husband goes out and does his home teaching... or helps some one in the ward with their furnace are you Jealous of him doing that? If he spends some time with the boys... do you feel he is stealing time away from you? When he spends one night a week at the church house doing tithing etc. does that bother you that hes not home where you can keep a thumb on him?My mission presidents wife... on her death bed... gave her best friend to him to wife. Her friend was a widow. She didnt want either of them to be alone. 3 months later they tied the naught. Not sealed because they both where previsously sealed to their spouses.Now thats Christ like love!If you died... would you want your husband or wife as the case may be. To remain a hermit and not celebrate life for the rest of their life? Perhaps they should dawn black garb as the Catholics do and remain alone the rest of their days? Thats a preety sad existance if you ask me.
Guest Lori Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 In raising up "righteous seed." I would like to know your definition of righteous?
Zakuska Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Righteous is as righteous does.How can you excuse some changes to revelations and then be so sure of others?What... like the prohibition of Pork (Lev. 11; Deut. 14: 3-20). Then all of a sudden they could? (Acts 10:28; 1 Tim. 4: 3 )
Guest Lori Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Can you say the same if your wife was the one taking other husbands while you are forced to live with her having sex with them and sharing her heart loving them? Would you give your wife other men while you are forced to just endure because Joseph said it was revelation? (and you are below your wife in the order of Heaven and forced to remain only to her for eternity while she can have any man "she desires") Have you honestly put yourself in my shoes? You would really try to challenge my Chrisitan values of loving my neighbor? How could you cause another the kind of emotional torture and pain that a woman would go through?That's not the "Do unto to others.." that I believe in.
Zakuska Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 My wife and I have talked about this at great lengths. I know of where I speak. If I died. id want her to marry again. I wouldnt want her to be shut up a widow dawned in black like those little old women I saw all over portugal struglling for the potatoes and onions they put on their tables. Thats just pure selfishness.Do you control what friends your husband can have? I assume you are married... perhaps I shouldn't assume.
Guest Lori Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 No, I don't control my husband and what he chooses or his friends. We treat each other with respect. I wasn't asking about if you die. I was asking you if you were alive and your wife is having sex with another man that you were commanded to give her. And she loved him.
Zakuska Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Id have to pray long and hard about it. My wife loves a lot of people. Should I be jealous of that?What makes you so sure "sex" was even involved? Wheres all the fruits?I wouldnt be suprised if there are some. Royal blood and all.
Guest Lori Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Is there any men here who have HONESTLY considered this if it were reversed?
Teancum Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Problem is Joseph married quite a number of women secretly, without Emma knowing.Given Emma's flipflopping on the issue, now agreeing-now disagreeing-now permitting-now refusing permission, I find the foregoing assertion not credible. If she tries to rescind prior permission by (if my ancestors' gossipy tales be true) pushing a very pregnant sister wife down the stairs of the Mansion House in Nauvoo, causing miscarriage, can she play the "wronged wife" card? Ought you, Lori, to play it on her behalf? The story about pushing the women down the stairs and causing a miscarriage is not well documented. It is allegedly Eliza Snow that was pushed and at the point Emma knew about plural marriage.But there was a time prior to her knowledge that Joseph was married to the two RS presidency members and Emma did not know.AS Emma became knowing about Joseph's activities she opposed them When he presented the revelation that put her on the spot. He also may have withheld her endowment and second anointing unless she conceded. regardless she did concede and received her endowment and second anointing. After that she granted permission for Joseph to marry a number of women, 5 or 6 if I recall. But then she started having second thoughts. She booted Eliza out as well as the Partridge sisters.There were also a number of Joseph's marriages after she conceded that she never knew about.I suggest Mormon Enigma-Emma Hale Smith..Teancum
GravyBoat Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Is there any men here who have HONESTLY considered this if it were reversed? As to the fruits of it, that is yet to be proven, but you are lying to yourself and me to pretend there wasn't sex!Jealousy is not an issue here. Honesty is.If the Lord commanded me to do it, I admit that I would do it.Boy, howdy, I might struggle with it, but struggle's nothing new. I'd do it.
Guest Lori Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 So you would honestly live with your wife and endure her having sex and loving another husband while you share her with whoever she desires to espouse? Wow, you are amazing!
Teancum Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 It's also the love involved. For a man to love more than 1 woman and have sex with her would be destructive to my spirit and has nothing to do with culture. I feel like some of the apologist here are not being honest with this issue as it relates to a woman's heart.Could you love you sister enough to share you husband with her?When your husband goes out and does his home teaching... or helps some one in the ward with their furnace are you Jealous of him doing that? If he spends some time with the boys... do you feel he is stealing time away from you? When he spends one night a week at the church house doing tithing etc. does that bother you that hes not home where you can keep a thumb on him?My mission presidents wife... on her death bed... gave her best friend to him to wife. Her friend was a widow. She didnt want either of them to be alone. 3 months later they tied the naught. Not sealed because they both where previsously sealed to their spouses.Now thats Christ like love!If you died... would you want your husband or wife as the case may be. To remain a hermit and not celebrate life for the rest of their life? Perhaps they should dawn black garb as the Catholics do and remain alone the rest of their days? Thats a preety sad existance if you ask me. So Zak, You willing to have your wife have more then one husband.This has always been the turn off for me.If I do not like that idea why would I expect my wife or any other woman to like it?Teancum
USU78 Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 I suggest Mormon Enigma-Emma Hale Smith..I bought it in first printing and still have it.I also descend from neighbors/close friends of the family.That the staircase incident is "family gossip" I happily admit and referred to in my post: if you didn't notice, please review.I also share the following concerning Emma's and JSIII's knowledge, but later disavowal of knowledge (remember, you were talking about alleged lack of knowledge):"There is a great deal said about polygamy just now. I want to tell what I know about it. I went to school where the prophets children were in attendance, and passed their home, going and coming, and like other children, used to call for their adopted daughter Julia [Murdock] who was the same age as their son Joseph, Jr. (He is the present leader of the Josephite [re-organized] church). One day in particular we were in the dining room. There were three young ladies at work setting the table. As fast as they would get it set, young Joseph would gather the knives and forks and spoons and disarrange them. They were all having a jolly time. When we left and were on our way to school, Julia remarked to my sister,
Teancum Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 My wife and I have talked about this at great lengths. I know of where I speak. If I died. id want her to marry again. I wouldnt want her to be shut up a widow dawned in black like those little old women I saw all over portugal struglling for the potatoes and onions they put on their tables. Thats just pure selfishness.Do you control what friends your husband can have? I assume you are married... perhaps I shouldn't assume. You dodged that one.If I died and my wife wanted to remarry then sure.But what about now Zak?In this life would you willingly and happily share your wife wit hthree or four other husbands?Andis it not interesting that a man can be sealed to more then one woman if a spouse has died but a women cannot, unless she cancels the previous sealing. I did tell my wife if I died and she remarried that she had best not cancel our sealing.Teancum
GravyBoat Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 So you would honestly live with your wife and endure her having sex and loving another husband while you share her with whoever she desires to espouse? Wow, you are amazing! The family table would be interesting, hanging out with my brother-husbands, but we'd have a blast. I'd have a few dudes that I could LAN-play Halo with.If the Lord commanded it, then why would I have any reason to think it wrong?
Teancum Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 Id have to pray long and hard about it. My wife loves a lot of people. Should I be jealous of that?What makes you so sure "sex" was even involved? Wheres all the fruits?I wouldnt be suprised if there are some. Royal blood and all. Sex WAS involved Zak, at least for all the others-Brigham, Parley, Heber, Orson, Joseph Fielding, Wilford.Why would it have been different for Jospeh? Does it bug youthat the men above had sex wit htheir plural wives? If no then why would it bother you for Joseph?Do you think Brigham preverted the idea Joseph introduced?Teancum
Teancum Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 So you would honestly live with your wife and endure her having sex and loving another husband while you share her with whoever she desires to espouse? Wow, you are amazing! Not me Lori.No frickin way.Teancum
Guest Lori Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 And if it's reasonable for JSIII to know what Julia knew, is it not reasonable that Emma knew and, at least at some point, gave approval? How do you explain Emma having no clue that most of the Relief Society was married to Joseph? Joseph being sealed twice to the Partridge sisters? Yes, at some point she did know but it's unclear if she knew there was sex involved. Joseph was secretive and Emma was lied to until she consented. (if you believe history)
USU78 Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 And if it's reasonable for JSIII to know what Julia knew, is it not reasonable that Emma knew and, at least at some point, gave approval? How do you explain Emma having no clue in Relief Society and Joseph being sealed twice to the Partridge sisters? Yes at some point she did know but it's unclear if she knew there was sex involved. Joseph was secretive and Emma was lied to until she consented. (if you believe history) Did you not read my great-great aunt's holograph? The Partridge girls and Eliza (at very least) were living in the Mansion House, helping with the housework.Emma knew. Everybody knows she knew. But she couldn't live with her affection for her sister-wives and her idealized (falsely) conception of JSJr. after his death. I don't blame her for her later lies or her flipflopping. It must've been horrible for her to know what JSJr. told her was true, even though it necessarily required her to make a sacrifice of everything she previously thought she knew.How must Sarah have felt when Abraham took off with Isaac? Nobody much speaks of her sacrifice, yet sacrifice she did, just as profoundly as Abraham."Where much is given, much is expected." Emma, the elect lady, knew what was expected and tried to do it. That she ultimately failed is only evidence of her humanity. Who (other than BY) faults her for that?
Magyar Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 It seems bizzare to me that someone could get all worked up today about a principle which the Church has not practiced in more than a century. All these "would you let your husband or wife do this or that" questions are pointless, because the Lord does not command or even allow polygamy at this time in his Church. What if God told me to take my son up on a mountain and sacrifice him? Would I do it? Yet such a bizzare action earns Abraham plaudits as a man of faith. Fine for him. The Lord hasn't made such a request in a long time and certainly not of me, and so I don't spend a whole lot of time worrying about it, not to mention finding my faith shaken by the account. Righteous men of Biblical times, i.e., the world's first members of the Church, had multiple wives. I'm not seeing anybody here worked up about that and what it says about them or the God who sanctioned/commanded/tolerated the practice.
Guest Lori Posted April 13, 2005 Posted April 13, 2005 So you would honestly live with your wife and endure her having sex and loving another husband while you share her with whoever she desires to espouse? Wow, you are amazing! The family table would be interesting, hanging out with my brother-husbands, but we'd have a blast. I'd have a few dudes that I could LAN-play Halo with.If the Lord commanded it, then why would I have any reason to think it wrong? I can't believe you are honest here. Do you love your wife? Have you looked at the structure of family and how it contradicts everything to have 30 or 50 wives. What makes righteous seed? I thought it was a father and mother raising children together teaching by example. Not just royal blood. IF it's all about blood then why do people make such a big deal about single moms not having a father in the home? Polygamous wives were on their own.If you read all about Brigham and others it was all about building up their kingdom and reigning like God.
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