Could Joseph Smith be a "Fallen Prophet"

[StupidFatHobbit]

Hi Lori,

I don't come here very often, so just now found this thread. I skimmed most of it, but tried to read your posts.

Your initial question is an excellent one, as are your follow-up questions asking the men if they could honestly accept polygamy if the roles were reversed. These are troubling, fundamental questions most LDS manage to avoid.

I am not LDS, though once upon a time I was. I

[voice of reason]

Mr. Platypus,

Rather than just place your trust in 'dalard' and leaving your God-given brain aside. May I suggest that you do some research and read some books that have been written about in this thread.

When you suggest that all original wives had a say in their husbands taking a plural wife. would you claim that Emma gave Joseph permission to take other wives? She claimed otherwise.

[Dale]

Hi,

Lori if Joseph Smith Jr. was so out of control in his sex habits he should have had tons of children. The possible children are so-disputeable the last hope for confirming children is DNA studies I heard someone was trying to do.

Anyway I hate polygamy myself. I don't like D&C 132. But I am not upset by various histories I read on the subject. I rather enjoy reading about Joseph Smith Jr. & polygamy. I like the Prophet Joseph Smith Jr. He was human. He made mistakes.

I am not sure the polyandrous marriages involved sex. Possibly they were sealings meant to go into effect after mortal marital arrangements had ended. Mary Lightner, Adam Lightners wife never say's she & Joseph Smith Jr. have an improper relationiship. D.&C.132 allows for plural marriages of single not already married women. To me it's more likely those marriages were sealings.

I am not sure Sylvia Sessions daughter's claim to being a daughter of Joseph Smith Jr. has been proved. Without cross-examining Sylvia or her daughter this might be a false claim. Being considered a daughter of Joseph Smith Jr. would have gotten her attention. Or her mother might have come to think of her daughter as being Joseph's in the eternities. We don't know enough about it other than she claimed her mother told her that on her death bed. Do the DNA test & I will admit she was Joseph's daughter or smile that I was right to be cautious all along.

If you suffer from depression deal with that before you get into this topic. At the time polygamy histories hurt me so much I was very depressed. Reading stuff about it would make me more depressed.

Some people who feel Joseph smith Jr. was a fallen prophet live with it by not seeing a need to defend Joseph Smith Jr. in regards to it. Many Reorganized LDS now called Community of Christ take that approach. Although Fundemental RLDS in the Restoration branches still feel he was innocent. I lean Community of Christ myself.

I don't reccomend people leave any restoration faith over this matter. If you believe other aspects of the church & theology is beautiful keep with it. The LDS Church is a fine Church. I encourage you to focus on areas where you can agree with your church. I reccomend a book entitled If I Really Believe Why Do I Have These Doubts? by Lynn Anderson. Amazon.com used to sell it. The book helps one resolve painful religious doubts & questions. God bless.

Sincerely,

Dale

[Golden Tapir]

Dale (& others)

I ask you the same Q I have asked other who excuse JS, BY, et al:

If these people were SO human, SO susceptible to error/mistakes...then why in the world were they selected other than by chance?

Shouldn't we expect that our leaders uphold a Higher standard for us to respect & admire?

You simply Can't have it both ways.

God Is Love

[Guest Lori]

In one of the earlier posts Lori seemed to express some concern that she would have to practice polygamy in the world hereafter.

I heard the same kind of thing for years, but it seems to me that you would not be forced to do something that would bring misery to you.  Something about the proper use of agency would seem to be in order.

I don't know of any authoritative statement suggesting that the highest order of the celestial kingdom is a club for polygamists and only for polygamists.

Brigham Young - To become a god, one must be a polygamist:

[katherine the great]

What I tried to say, in which I was badly misunderstood, is that plural marriage was a principle ordained of God, for the 19th century Church as well as in the days of Abraham. I have no doubt about that. I have no doubt about the inspiration of our prophets then and now.

This is hogwash. Show me ONE scripture in the Bible that says that plural marriage is ordained or commanded of God. I'm always amazed at how ignorant most LDS people are of the difference in LDS polygamy and biblical polygamy.

There were three types of plural marriage practiced among the righteous in the Bible, and they were all CULTURAL, not religious.

1. The first type was the "Patriarchal" polygamy. With the exception of Jacob (who was deceived by Laban to marry Leah), a concubine was provided only to provide children. This woman was always selected by the true wife in the case of infertility, or if the woman chose to stop having children.

2. The second type was dynastic (ie: King David and Solomon.) All Kings in that part of the world had harems to ensure plenty of heirs. It was a dangerous business to keep a family in power. Nathan (the prophet) chose the wives for David (who was a King, NOT a prophet) to prevent him from marrying foreign, pagen women who could lead Israel into idolatry. Solomon, of course, didn't heed the prophet and that led to bad stuff...

3. The third type of polygamy was the Levirite marriage. Women were barred by law from inheriting property. If she was married to a really rich guy and he died, unless she had a son who could inherit, she was completely out of luck. This was the case with Naomi and Ruth. The nearest kin was obligated to marry the woman and father a son for her so that she could enjoy her husband's inheritance through her son.

Polygamy was NEVER commanded in the Bible. It was certainly tolerated by God, but never required. Most certainly not required for exaltation.

Lori: I feel the same way you do about polygamy in the early church. I can see some benefit to polygamy in pioneer Utah times for some of the reasons mentioned (sister wives, large families, strong loyalities.) It was a hard life though and many, many women didn't survive it. Some of my ancestors did okay with it, but some of them were destroyed by it. It was a real "survival of the fittest" thing. Nothing can convince me that it was ever commanded by God. It's something that happened, and the fruits ended the practice. It's part of our history. In my mind, I'm not sure many prophets "fall", but God has shown historically that He is willing to work with his prophets, even when they make really big mistakes.

[Guest Lori]

If you suffer from depression deal with that before you get into this topic. At the time polygamy histories hurt me so much I was very depressed. Reading stuff about it would make me more depressed.

I don't suffer from depression Thankfully I was a happy person before I was confronted with this doctrine. I have always been haunted by polygamy my whole life so I avoided thinking about it but at times if I did, it would make me sick. I have been told all the excuses my entire life that were just lies. Where did these lies originate from? I remember in church learning from teachers that polygamy was practiced to support widows and it was never even mentioned that sex was involved. I knew Brigham had wives but I didn't know the truth of why. I am embarrassed of my ignorance but I blame the church for much of it. They have built a dream of an eternal family, the plan of salvation, & of temple marriage into my heart and spirit that has been destroyed. My testimony is based on half truths and covered up doctrines. Within 5 minutes I felt like I had been brain washed and deceived after reading the intro to "Mormon Polygamy." I don't live in Utah so this information is not ever talked about. All of my family on both sides are Mormons so I am shocked that they haven't told me any of the history. I haven't talked with them yet about any of this so they may be in the dark too. I remember my mom telling me when I was little how there were all these lies about Joseph out there so I always believed anything negative must be from Satan.

I may very well need Zoloft to stay in the church and accept the doctrine we believe. Especially if I have to endure a year of celebrating Joseph Smith.

I love the church as I knew it. I love the gospel of Jesus Christ as I was taught.

I feel betrayed and sick about Joseph's secret wives and all the rest of the scandels around polygamy. I have a loving devout mormon husband and children.

They are the reason I am not going to "Bolt and Run." I am searching for the truth and following what feels like truth and not sin. I was scared because after 5 minutes of reading about Joseph's secret proposals I felt like my testimony was shattered. Then of course after the book was done I tried to recount my spiritual experiences in my life. So I am really trying to understand it but also be honest with my heart and mind. What's so hard is that I can't look at the temple the same again. That was the place I felt the most spiritual.

[Guest Lori]

So you would honestly live with your wife and endure her having sex and loving another husband while you share her with whoever she desires to espouse?

Wow, you are amazing!

I told you. I would have to pray about it.

Theres a big diference between sneaking around about it (Yes Joseph may have initially) and living it in the open as an enternal principle. I mean... who hasnt heard of Bringams 34!?

It's also another thing to have a spouse cheat on you without you knowing than have to be in the same house with the woman while he has sex with her. Joseph did both. So you would honestly tell me if you prayed and had the spirit confirm it as revelation, that you would live with other men while they had sex with your wife? Also there is the other element to this. Love with intimacy. You are no longer her only husband. She loves all her husbands. Then as you grow old and less attractive she spends more time with a younger husband and brags about her kingdom and sitting on a throne. Does that sound Christian? How can we be humble before God and proclaim such doctrine.

[emaughan]

Most LDS men are so happy and excited to possibly practice polygamy in the next life, but when the question is turned around and they are asked about sharing THIER wife..... they aren't so happy.

So you have done a poll on this, any chance of showing us the method used and the statistical analysis? I'm surprised at your assumption that you make above. Why do you think "most" LDS men are excited about practicing polygamy in the next life? Is this more a reflection of your own wishes and thoughts? For those of us who are married happily, I do not see the "excitement" in wishing for more wives or husbands. I see plural marriage (men or women) as a way to increase our support for our children and provide friendship and emotional support for the parents. What are you focusing on (I can only guess given your tone)?

I have considered what it would be like to be sealed to more than one wife or my wife sealed to more than one husband. After bringing it to the Lord, I go with either one - so would my wife. My wife and I both joke how nice it would be to have some additional parental support in our home. Our kids out number us 2 to 1 and they usually win the battles. We know we would be kicked out of her family and society would be quite bigoted toward us. If God commanded it, we would be willing to do it - either way.

The "it's all about sex" crowd to which most of the critics belong, view polygamy in base way. The "teenage boy" mentality toward polygamy helps the critic turn a complex issue into an easily riduculed straw man. Reading the journals of my ancestors, and knowing some of the wonderful people that came from those polygamist families is all I needed to know that it was a prinicepal that produced good fruits. That is how I judge the practice. So to the critics who focus on the sex, you will NEVER understand the practice as it was instituted by God.

P.S. I too think Lori has a familiar tone to her posts, hmmmmm...

[Zakuska]

Dale (& others)

I ask you the same Q I have asked other who excuse JS, BY, et al:

If these people were SO human, SO susceptible to error/mistakes...then why in the world were they selected other than by chance?

Shouldn't we expect that our leaders uphold a Higher standard for us to respect & admire?

You simply Can't have it both ways.

God Is Love

Yet Paul is a murderer and Peter is a self confessed Liar.

[Zakuska]

What I tried to say, in which I was badly misunderstood, is that plural marriage was a principle ordained of God, for the 19th century Church as well as in the days of Abraham. I have no doubt about that. I have no doubt about the inspiration of our prophets then and now.

This is hogwash. Show me ONE scripture in the Bible that says that plural marriage is ordained or commanded of God. I'm always amazed at how ignorant most LDS people are of the difference in LDS polygamy and biblical polygamy.

There were three types of plural marriage practiced among the righteous in the Bible, and they were all CULTURAL, not religious.

1. The first type was the "Patriarchal" polygamy. With the exception of Jacob (who was deceived by Laban to marry Leah), a concubine was provided only to provide children. This woman was always selected by the true wife in the case of infertility, or if the woman chose to stop having children.

2. The second type was dynastic (ie: King David and Solomon.) All Kings in that part of the world had harems to ensure plenty of heirs. It was a dangerous business to keep a family in power. Nathan (the prophet) chose the wives for David (who was a King, NOT a prophet) to prevent him from marrying foreign, pagen women who could lead Israel into idolatry. Solomon, of course, didn't heed the prophet and that led to bad stuff...

3. The third type of polygamy was the Levirite marriage. Women were barred by law from inheriting property. If she was married to a really rich guy and he died, unless she had a son who could inherit, she was completely out of luck. This was the case with Naomi and Ruth. The nearest kin was obligated to marry the woman and father a son for her so that she could enjoy her husband's inheritance through her son.

Polygamy was NEVER commanded in the Bible. It was certainly tolerated by God, but never required. Most certainly not required for exaltation.

Lori: I feel the same way you do about polygamy in the early church. I can see some benefit to polygamy in pioneer Utah times for some of the reasons mentioned (sister wives, large families, strong loyalities.) It was a hard life though and many, many women didn't survive it. Some of my ancestors did okay with it, but some of them were destroyed by it. It was a real "survival of the fittest" thing. Nothing can convince me that it was ever commanded by God. It's something that happened, and the fruits ended the practice. It's part of our history. In my mind, I'm not sure many prophets "fall", but God has shown historically that He is willing to work with his prophets, even when they make really big mistakes.

Sounds to me like some one is a little out of touch with reality.

2 Sam 12

God did the giving.

It wasn't merely "tolerated" Gods married to 10 virgins in the NT.

Who was it that wrote out the law of the leverite in the first place?

[katherine the great]

[sounds to me like some one is a little out of touch with reality.

Yes, you. Try reading the scriptures in context. Did you say that God married ten virgins in the New Testament? What are you smoking?

[Zakuska]

No that would be you.

Did you read the verse or am I going to have to educate the illiterate?

[katherine the great]

No that would be you.

Did you read the verse or am I going to have to educate the illiterate?

I'm familiar with God's chastisement of David for his sin against Uriah. As I stated, because David was the King, his wives were selected by the prophet Nathan (or by God through Nathan.) This was to ensure that the King didn't take foreign, idol worshipping wives to lead Israel astray. I'm quite sure I've already said all this. Now, about those ten virgins....

[Jarrod]

No that would be you.

Did you read the verse or am I going to have to educate the illiterate?

Zakuska, you are hardly one to call anyone else here "illiterate." Moreoever, your unrelenting sarcasm and polemic style hardly qualifies you to educate anyone here. Your opinions would garner more respect, as would you, if you could mount a more concerted attempt at civility, and do it on some common ground.

If, on the other hand, you think everyone comes here with the belief that whoever offers the most witty barbs "wins", then you might be wise to troll at the "other" board.

[Zakuska]

But GOD did the giving... it wasn't merely "{QUOTE}TOLERATED{QUOTE}", as you said.

God commanded Abaham to have children. His wife was barren. So what did they do? Get a seragate. And... to everyones surpise God blesses Abrahams faithfulness to fuffil the law with a Child by Sarah.

Same cenario with Jacob... Only he's twice as blessed. And these aint no "Kings" these are prophets.

So your little "King" card has just been trumped deary.

[Zakuska]

No that would be you.

Did you read the verse or am I going to have to educate the illiterate?

Zakuska, you are hardly one to call anyone else here "illiterate." Moreoever, your unrelenting sarcasm and polemic style hardly qualifies you to educate anyone here. Your opinions would garner more respect, as would you, if you could mount a more concerted attempt at civility, and do it on some common ground.

If, on the other hand, you think everyone comes here with the belief that whoever offers the most witty barbs "wins", then you might be wise to troll at the "other" board.

Nice polemic of your own.

<Trip Trap Trip Trap..... Who's that walking over my bridge>

[katherine the great]

But GOD did the giving... it wasn't merely "{QUOTE}TOLERATED{QUOTE}", as you said.

God commanded Abaham to have children. His wife was barren. So what did they do? Get a seragate. And... to everyones surpise God blesses Abrahams faithfulness to fuffil the law with a Child by Sarah.

Same cenario with Jacob... Only he's twice as blessed. And these aint no "Kings" these are prophets.

So your little "King" card has just been trumped deary.

Did you even read my post? I outlined the differences in the ways plural marriage was practiced in Old Testament times. Now, please explain what you meant about the New Testament ten virgins. I'm still waiting.

[Zakuska]

Yes I read your post... and I read the word "TOLERATED"... When it was no such thing.

I also saw you play the "King" card.

It wasnt Dynastic at all these people where prophets.

Just who is the bridegroom in the 10 virgins parable?

[katherine the great]

Yes I read your post... and I read the word "TOLERATED"... When it was no such thing.

I also saw you play the "King" card.

It wasnt Dynastic at all these people where prophets.

Just who is the bridegroom in the 10 virgins parable?

Christ is the bridegroom. Did you think the ten virgins were the BRIDES? They were guests at the wedding.

[Zakuska]

Guests at the wedding?

Perhaps you are unaware of the Catholic teaching that the church and its memebers are Christs bride. My moms got this painting hangin on her wall. These ten virigins are representations of Christs brides, the different types of Memebers in his nride. In Isaiah God is married to Jerusalem and Israel. Polygamy is a constant thread of thought through the whole bible. People try to westernize it too much. Its a middle eastern document.

It baffels me people cant see the literalness of the spirtual side of scripture. I guess Im the only one who sees these things.

[Guest Lori]

Guests at the wedding?

Perhaps you are unaware of the Catholic teaching that the church and its memebers are Christs bride. My moms got this painting hangin on her wall. These ten virigins are representations of Christs brides. In Isaiah God is married to Jerusalem and Israel. Polygamy is a constant thread of thought through the whole bible. People try to westernize it too much. Its a middle eastern document.

It baffels me people cant see the literalness of the spirtual side of scripture. I guess Im the only one who sees these things.

The problem is that scriptures can be interpreted many different ways. I will have what I feel is a spiritual understanding of a scripture and then if I tell my husband what I learned it's wrong sometimes. Christ spoke in parables so the ten virgins doesn't mean it was his brides. It could mean his people.

[Zakuska]

Guests at the wedding?

Perhaps you are unaware of the Catholic teaching that the church and its memebers are Christs bride.

[Guest Lori]

Back to my original question-is it not possible that David Whitmer was right and who here has studied about the early apostates? I am really interested in why so many left because so far it seems to be because of Joseph's secret wives.

This is from David Whitmer:

I quote from a revelation which came through the stone, July, 1828. It is a revelation to Brother Joseph, chastising him for his errors after he had commenced to translate the Book of Mormon, telling him how often he had erred and transgressed the commandmants and the laws of God;

Many of the Latter Day Saints believe that it is impossible for Brother Joseph to have fallen. "Remember, remember, that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men: for although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet, if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, He must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him. Behold, you have been entrusted with these things, but how strict were your commandments; and remember, also, the promises which were made to you, if you did not trangress them, and behold, how oft have you trangressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men; * * * Behold thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, (was given a gift to translate the Book) but because of transgression, if thou are not aware, thou wilt fall, but remember God is merciful: * * * * * thou hast suffered the council of thy Director to be trampled upon from the beginning."

David Whitmer goes into every detail of his falling away and changing revelations. Especially the ones of High Priests, the name of the church, monogamy to polygamy, and others. How can we believe the Doctrine and Covenants if it was changed so many times. The Book of Mormon was all translated from the seer stone and U and T.

More from David Whitmer:

"And that no one may be deceived or misled by this statement, I wish here to state: that I do not indorse polygamy or spiritual wifeism. It is a great evil, shocking to the moral sense, and the more so, because practiced in the name of religion. It is of man and not God, and is especially forbidden in the Book of Mormon itself.

"I do not indorse the change of the name of the church, for as the wife takes the name of her husband so should the Church of the Lamb of God, take the name of its head, even Christ himself. It is the Church of Christ.

"As to the High Priesthood, Jesus Christ himself is the last Great High Priest, this too after the order of Melchisedec, as I understand the Holy Scriptures.

"Finally, I do not indorse any of the teachings of the so-called Mormons, of Latter Day Saints, which are in conflict with the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, as taught in the Bible and Book of Mormon; for the same gospel is plainly taught in both of these books as I understand the word of God.

False spirits, which come as an Angel of Light, are abroad in the earth to deceive, if it were possible, the very elect. Those whom Satan can deceive and lead into error he deceives.I desire to say a few words here concerning prophets falling into error. Solomon, David, Saul, Uzziah and many great and gifted prophets in Israel fell into gross error, and some of them into crime. Paul said he kept his body under subjection, lest he should become a castaway, after having preached to others.

[helix]

The Book of Mormon was all translated from the seer stone and U and T. The D & C was from his own thoughts/revelations.

A quick look through some of the headers of the Doctrine and Covenants show D&C 3, 6, 7, 11, 14, 15, 16, 17 having been received through the Urim and Thummim.