Could Joseph Smith be a "Fallen Prophet"

[Beowulf]

Yet again, we get the you-accept-polygamy-that-evil-corrupt-practice-so-of-course-you-must-accept-every-other-corrupt-practice-in-the-world-that-I-can-think-of argument.

Polygamy was practiced in the Church because God commanded it.

It is not practiced now in the Church because God countermanded it.

In the period when polygamy was being practiced, the Church did not countenance homosexuality, adultery, female circumcision, or any other sexual perversion that you can think up.

That should give you pause....

The 19th C Mormons were a highly moral society. Joseph Smith was a highly moral man who condemned sexual sin constantly and consistently. LDS morals today were not learned anew after the polygamy era. They have been constant and consistent.

Ask my great-great-grandparents. (Three sets of whom were in polygamous marriages.) They would be aghast at your insinuations.

Shame on you.

Beowulf

[Guest Lori]

Yet again, we get the you-accept-polygamy-that-evil-corrupt-practice-so-of-course-you-must-accept-every-other-corrupt-practice-in-the-world-that-I-can-think-of argument.

Polygamy was practiced in the Church because God commanded it.

It is not practiced now in the Church because God countermanded it.

In the period when polygamy was being practiced, the Church did not countenance homosexuality, adultery, female circumcision, or any other sexual perversion that you can think up.

That should give you pause....

The 19th C Mormons were a highly moral society. Joseph Smith was a highly moral man who condemned sexual sin constantly and consistently. LDS morals today were not learned anew after the polygamy era. They have been constant and consistent.

Ask my great-great-grandparents. (Three sets of whom were in polygamous marriages.) They would be aghast at your insinuations.

Shame on you.

Beowulf

Have you even read any history at all? God didn't remove the commandment. The manifesto was purely political. DO SOME HISTORY before you defend something you obviously know very little about. Those women were brain washed.

[Zakuska]

Well I guess you would support homosexual sex, killing family members for losing their virginity, mutalating girls bodies, and all the other horrific CULTURAL sins that are practiced throughout the world.

What... Kind of like what Jews all over the world do to little boy's on the 8 day of life... Snip Snip?

Do you have any kids? Did you have them circucized? So whats your point?

Talking about Brain washing.

Sarah GAVE Hagar to Abraham because she was barren.

Im Glad you came to see this. It was the Law given by God.

Talking about sneaking around. Sounds like what the Nibley family is going through with Martha. Does that make the church not true?

Those women were brain washed.

Those women... of who my ancestors where from would beg to differ. They where wrought upon by the spirit of God.

The FLDS are practicing the so called sacred honorable system right now. Are you defending them as well?

Course not... they are not following the mouth piece of God on the earth.

[joy]

I wouldnt call it deceitful or self-serving. Its a tour.  For heavens sake.

When people Tour Thomas Jerfersons house do the Tour guides get into all the nitty gritty details of his escapades with the Maids?

I wonder if they have added Monica Lewinskies name on a plaque outside the oval office?

You have to remember that some of the women where married to BY because they where widowed.

A 15 minute tour is entirely the wrong forum for this. 

Give me a break.

Lori started this thread expressing her feelings of having been deceived. Ummm. . . let me think. . . that Sister Missionary had certainly been trained by someone in many historical details about Brigham Young's home and the manner in which he lived. Yet that same someone just happened to leave her ignorant on the truth about plural marriage -- a topic that was a major portion of the chapel portion of the tour. Oh, but wait! That's right, she's only 'a person'. That wasn't "the Church" speaking, was it?

Can we say, "plausible deniability"?

This is what my husband had to say about the so-called honesty of the LDS church, and it well represents my own feelings:

If this is truly the True Church embued from God, with honesty and integrity and everything else, there shouldn't be anything that even hints at being tainted. Everytime you turn a leaf there should be more truth and more virtue, but when you start hitting things that are obviously dishonest, double dealing, or they are feeling the need to contrive the facts to present a different image than reality, then obviously there is something wrong.

In this big struggle between good and evil, there ought to be only one side that is playing games with the Truth.

I don't have any problem with plural marriage. I still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. I still know that the Book of Mormon is True. It's the LDS church that I have a problem with.

[Zakuska]

D&C 1: 30

30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of cdarkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually

[heavymental]

don't have any problem with plural marriage. I still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. I still know that the Book of Mormon is True. It's the LDS church that I have a problem with.

Isn't that an oxymoron...

[Zakuska]

No thats an Oxy-mormon

[joy]

BTW, I don't normally come here, and I certainly have no interest in hearing the typical justifications for the way the LDS church misrepresents itself, so this is my last post.

Regarding that tour: My daughter and I were the only ones on the tour. We arrived about a half hour before the normal opening time, and we received a lengthy personal tour. There were no other tourists in the entire time we were there. We did not ask any questions about plural marriage, and in fact I was hoping she'd cut that portion short and talk about something more interesting.

Regarding my husband's comment: That was in response to information I'd found in the Institute library.

Make of it what you will. Twist it and make mockery of it however you want.

Heavymetal -- I don't know your background, but the True Church formed by Joseph Smith splintered after his martyrdom. Each of the splinters would have you believe that they are THE continuation of the True Church. : shrug : If the LDS church is True, then I do not understand why they are not more forthright and honest in their dealings.

[Guest Lori]

Im glad to know you think the scriptures are illogical. You better come into the infield from out their behind 1st base.

The bondwomans child was by Law, The free womans Child was by promise.

Paul contrasts the two convenants with the story.

This is exactly what D&C132 says.

Why did Sarah do it? Because it was the Law.

And who Gave Noah that Law? GOD

It was only a law based on Joseph's revelation. I am not convinced by your scripture references that this was ever a law to the Priesthood unless you believe in D & C 132. I feel it's valid to consider the possiblilty that this was not from God based on the fact that Joseph started changing revelations and as a result there are 3 versions of the Book of Commandments. Why can't you see how the puzzle pieces fit PERFECTLY to prove it? You are not connecting the dots. This does not mean Joseph Smith was not a prophet. His revelations started changing and then a few years later he had proposed to Fanny Alger. The timing of it all fits so perfectly with David WHitmer's testimony.

You and some others have not answered my question about how we are fine to disregard all these other REVELATIONS given to Joseph and remove them, but yet this one you defend to the death.

[Zakuska]

You didn't see Paul calling it a Law? The Galations wanted to be under the Law... and he was showing that the Law of Hagar/Sarah ie. Abraham having a child under the Law by Hagar Did not give that Child an inheritance. Only through Isaac... the Child of Promise came inheritance.

Don't get me wrong... I question the "seeming" excess in this regards to Joseph Bigham Y, John Taylor et al. Take a look at King Solomon. He had 700 wives and who knows how many concubines. He couldn't get to each one individually in over 2 years.

That is sad.

Gods ideal is 1 and 1. But some times. Polygamy is required to bring about Gods purposes.

What was the powder keg that got Joseph lynched?

Did not Joseph have to seal his testimony with his blood?

Ok then.

[Guest Lori]

Gods ideal is 1 and 1. But some times. Polygamy is required to bring about Gods purposes.

What was the powder keg that got Joseph lynched?

Did not Joseph have to seal his testimony with his blood?

Ok then.

Another story that was told to me as a child but was yet again false. I know you've heard the REAL story about how the press was destroyed because of his polygamy being exposed. I don't think the people that killed Joseph for what they perceive as brain washing women and doing it under God, then destroying the Press was sealing his testimony with his blood.

[Jarrod]

I propose we all just ignore Zakuska from here on; the guy makes absolutely no sense and has even admitted to being a troll. I'm sure the rest of us are more interested in exchanging ideas that aren't constructed purely for sport.

[Zakuska]

<TRIPP TRAPP TRIPPP TRAPP>

Oh please Jarod... Don't give me the silent treatment....

Mighty... Adult of you.

[Zakuska]

Gods ideal is 1 and 1.

[Guest Lori]

Just like traditional western marriages, plural marriage among the pioneer saints had good ones and had bad ones, some were happy and some were not. If the problem with the bad marriages was plural marriage itself and not the individuals who participated in it then why didn

[Zakuska]

Who are you to make this claim? Did you live it? I am going to use the evidence and journals to make my conclusions. Not some phony idea you have made up to make yourself feel better.

Sure I didnt live it but many... many of my ancestors did. Ill see If I can post some of their Journals.

[Guest Lori]

What was the catalist the got the Savior slain? Look at all the women he was "brain washing".

Was he not numbered among the transgressors too?

You lost me. How is this related at all?

[Zakuska]

Completely related...

Christ conspiered to assalting an officer thats what finaly got him brought in.

Read about it in Luke.

Actually let me elaborate. Christ armed his men and then marched on the temple mount... thats what got him brought in by the Sanhedran.

Joseph was in prison for... suposedly being a trator to the country as well.

[Guest Lori]

Completely related...

Christ conspiered to assalting an officer thats what finaly got him brought in.

Read about it in Luke.

I am still not getting how you can compare the murder of Joseph with Christ.

Especially knowing the real history behind Joseph's secrets and lies.

Zak,

Are you being paid to be on the FAIR Message boards? You seem to be on here all day and night. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but I was just hoping to find people on here who would be able to reason and be honest with me. Your posts feel like desperation to defend evil. Are you really this robotic? I think your knowledge of the scriptures is wonderful and helpful but you are interpreting them to fit anything you want. You leave out all the history and story behind them. Just like you do everytime we talk about Joseph's God sanctioned adultery. Please just be real. I am here for truth.

[pchan]

Lori your agenda is showing

[heavymental]

If the LDS church is True, then I do not understand why they are not more forthright and honest in their dealings.

Dare I say the history of most if not all religions is somewhat suspect.

[Zakuska]

Being paid? I wish!

Being in the computer field I monitor computers all day... not to brag. But... apparently Im a good programmer and things dont go down very much.

Christ in Luke tells his men to go buy swords... ie he arms them and then marches on the temple mount. If you remeber the political climate of Jerusalem at the time there where several political factions that had Messiahs who the goverment was trying to deal with.

So heres someone saying he is a Messiah (we all know he was) arming his men and marching on the temple mount. Judas goes to warn the Sanhedran. They send out armed guards to pick up the miraders. Christ was userping the throne of Israel and the Sahedran wouldn't have it.

Christ was considered the King of the Jews... it was a political thing.

Have you never studdied the politics involved in this whole thing?

Joseph Smith being of the Royal blood line was basically doing the same thing. But the US government wouldn't have it. He oopossed slavery and purposed equal right for women (ie women had the priesthood under Joseph). You do remember Joseph Smith was a General. You also remember that one of the leaders of the Mob was a baptist... And if Im not mistaken... a southern Baptist. They had to have their salves for the plantations now didn't they?

He was brought in for treason as well becuase he had rallied in congress been promoted to General. Armed his men with Government issued guns and used the militia to stop the mobbing of the Mormons.

Its the exact same story as Christ... minus the atonement of course.

Joseph payed for his testimony with his blood.

The press was the powder Keg that set things in motion. He was dead within the year.

[Guest Lori]

Lori your agenda is showing

If you think my agenda is to have an honest debate about if D & C 132 could be from Satan then yes it should be showing. What agenda do you think I have? Have you read any of my posts? I am an active mormon married in the temple and have children and I just started doing Church history. It's been devestating to me what I have learned.

[Zakuska]

Lori,

All of us here have went through exactly what you have. We've come to deal with it in different ways.

[pchan]

Have you put equal amounts of time into trying to understand polygamy as you have trying to find fault with it. You will not admit that many women at the time by their own admission had no problem with it you just scream FLDS. From your posts and yes I have read them all it seems to me you have devoted your time to ferreting out lies and guess what you will find exactly what you are looking for it is called self fulfilling prophecy. In your posts you have not discussed any talks with your husband, Bishop stake President on the subject nor your answers or non answers to your prayers on it. That is why I say agenda. It sounds to me that you made your decision long before posting here.