Could Joseph Smith be a "Fallen Prophet"

[Blink]

My wife owns me just as much as I own her.

We are one.

And you cant tell me that your kids don't own you!

What's the going rate for a wife these days, Zak? You can sell or trade your car, your house, your land, your food, your time, but can you sell or trade your wife? People aren't property. We own things, not people. Your wife doesn't own you and you don't own your wife. And my children don't own me, although after this upcoming wedding, I"m going to be considerably poorer.

[Zakuska]

Well my Brother was teaseing his wife last night that he was going to auction her off on E-Bay for $0.25.

If I had a wife like you blink I don't think I could pay someone to take ya.

[Brackite]

Hello Zak and all else here,

But shes hung up on Jacob 2:24.

And so am I, Zak. I believe in Jacob 2:24. In Jacob 2:24 the Prophet Jacob declares that the may wives and concubines of King David and King Solomon was truly an abomination before the Lord God. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had many wives and concubines just like King David and King Solomon did. And Jacob 2:30 in No way Justifies the Polygamous practices of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young since Jacob 2:30 is either referring to raising up seed through Monogamy or Levitical Marriage. Those are the only two possible interpretations of Jacob 2:30. The Polygamous practices of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young went far beyond the practice of Levitical Marriage. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had at least 26 wives each. Having many wives and concubines is truly an abomination according to Jacob 2:24, Mosiah 11:2 and Ether 10:5 in the Book of Mormon. And I very mcuh believe in the Book of Mormon on this important issue.

[truth dancer]

Hi Brackite...

I'm sure you know this but...

Monogamy was stated as official doctrine in the D&C sec 104 until it was removed and replaced with sec 132.

I find this difficult...

~dancer~

[jlp]

From http://www.lauricellas.com/clint/zinabook2.htm

[Scott Gordon]

Zina left Jacobs in 1846 to marry Brigham Young.

I think this says it all.

Check out Jacob's next marriage as well. How long did that one last?

Scott

[Brackite]

Hello Scott,

Zina left Jacobs in 1846 to marry Brigham Young.

I think this says it all.

The following is from the Web Site Page www.wivesofjosephsmith.org:

Shortly after Joseph Smith

[Zakuska]

Hello Zak and all else here,

But shes hung up on Jacob 2:24.

And so am I, Zak. I believe in Jacob 2:24. In Jacob 2:24 the Prophet Jacob declares that the may wives and concubines of King David and King Solomon was truly an abomination before the Lord God. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had many wives and concubines just like King David and King Solomon did. And Jacob 2:30 in No way Justifies the Polygamous practices of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young since Jacob 2:30 is either referring to raising up seed through Monogamy or Levitical Marriage. Those are the only two possible interpretations of Jacob 2:30. The Polygamous practices of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young went far beyond the practice of Levitical Marriage. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young had at least 26 wives each. Having many wives and concubines is truly an abomination according to Jacob 2:24, Mosiah 11:2 and Ether 10:5 in the Book of Mormon. And I very mcuh believe in the Book of Mormon on this important issue.

Except you are forgetting some important facts.

2 Sam 12:6-7

God was the one who Gave David 10 of his wives and then he gave them to another to be raped.

You are forgetting Joseph Smith and Brigham Youngs blood line. Literal Israelites. Royalty to be exact. And we all know the marriage Laws surrounding Jewish Royalty.

The reason Henry

[Fatboy]

I don't post here that often, but I really enjoyed many of the posts especially Scott's early post. I come from polygamy from both sides as well. And when I read books published about disgruntled women from polygamy and then read about all the discontent of some here, you just don't understand. Do you think that we are going to have the same feelings and inadequacies as we do in this life? Those of you that are having a difficult time with this, have you ever loved a sister or friend who has never married and longed for them to have what you have? I know my wife has. I know that this post will sway no one. Those who have a difficult time with this do not want answers. They are not looking for any. There was a time when I had similar questions. But I studied and listened and researched and found answers that satisfied me. But then I wanted to find answers.

There are not going to be jealousies, and we will look at things much differently.

To be honest though, when I was younger, I thought polygamy would be alright. Now that I am older, no way would I ever want to live it. This makes me appreciate my ancestors more, for they did not practice polygamy until they were my age. I shudder at how they could keep some assemblance of a life. I am sure the women are the ones who held down the fort.

If you really want answers, then accept the fact that if we have faith that Joseph Smith prophet and that this mantle was handed down to Brigham Young. If you can not accept this, then it would be futile.

[Guest Lori]

Do you think that we are going to have the same feelings and inadequacies as we do in this life?  Those of you that are having a difficult time with this, have you ever loved a sister or friend who has never married and longed for them to have what you have? I know my wife has.

This is the one thing I have heard from a few on here. Giving the single sister who never had anybody etc. What makes me almost laugh is to hear women say "I would want one of my sisters to have what I have." Sure, we all do. It is completely different to give your husband to somebody while you are still living with him. That changes everything about what you had that you so lovingly wanted to give her! Suddenly your marriage that you love and wanted to share is no longer that beautiful relationship you once had.

I completely understand the "idea" of it because I too have tried to make it all better and peaceful by saying it. It really makes no sense when I know if my husband took another wife it would ruin our relationship that I treasure. So how am I giving this sister something that I had? It's not even close to the same.

[Scott Gordon]

The reason Henry

[1dc]

. . all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our God . . .

[Guest Lori]

. . all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our God . . .

[Zakuska]

What kind of Like Moses?

Ex 7:1

1 AND the LORD said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.

His people considered him a God and he got them to comit genocide on the Ammonites.

Joseph looks like Mother Teresa to the side of Moses!

[Guest Lori]

What kind of Like Moses?

His people considered him a God and he got them in comit genocide on the Ammonites.

Did God want them worshiping Moses? We should never trust that much in any person regardless of their calling if we feel something is wrong and evil. There are scriptures of Prophets giving false revelations in the Old Testament as well as today. The only way I would have practiced polygamy is if God came to me himself. *even then it would be impossible to imagine and I know I couldn't cause that kind of pain to my husband if the roles were reversed. The very feelings in me that oppose this practice come from my Christian values. Especially the ones of loving your neighbor, and not commiting adultery.

Did Abraham get a vision to kill Isaac? I would hope it was a direct communication that was undeniable before I let my husband sacrifice my child.

From the accounts of the women who had revelations (not all of them did) it does leave doubt as to if it was a sure undeniable communication with the spirit of God.

Maybe it was too sacred to speak of but some just did it by faith in the prophet.

[Zakuska]

Moses was a polygamist too.

[truth dancer]

Hi Zak....

OK... here's the deal....

I think by justifying crimes and cruelty with the Bible you are doing more harm than good.

I mean I know you are trying to suggest that all is well cause horrific things also occurred in the Bible but I personally think it just speaks to the Bible as being of man.

It is like a child who gets caught stealing and replies that it is ok because his brother stole as well.... it doesn't make it right, it makes them both wrong... ya know?

Just my opinion...

~dancer~

[truth dancer]

I find what occurred with polygamy in the early days of the church to be horrific....

I agree with Lori. I CRINGE when some suggest that they feel sorry for those women who are not married and think it would be wonderful to marry these women so they could have the joy of married life.

First... I have difficulty with the whole pity thing. Women can be happy and fulfilled without being married. We most likely all have things we would like that haven't come to us in this life... happiness is NOT about the external, it is a state of being.

It makes me a tiny bit crazy ( ) when I hear men say this, as it sort of implies that they think they can offer women such happiness because they are so great and fabulous! Now, no offense to all you guys cause I'm quite sure you are all very remarkable but still....

The reality is in many (most) polygamous relationships the women were left destitute, unhappy, uncared for, land lonely... it was difficult enough for a man to provide for one family let alone five or ten or twenty or forty.

As Lori mentioned, once you start sharing, be it an affaire or whatever, the primary relationship is altered. Call it what you will, the effects of additional partners impact the marriage in the same way.

I find it strange that (some of) the same people who seem to applaud or rationalize polygamy speak of affairs as horrible and unhealthy.... the effects are exactly the same. Even if you think God sanctioned/commanded/demanded a man to possess multiple women, I find it silliness to suggest that it is all great while at the same time condemning men who have multiple partners yet call it something different.

My final point (for now... ) When a woman believes that a man is a prophet of God and God speaks to him, when the prophet tells these women that God has demanded that they engage in this lifestyle, when the prophet tells them that it is a requirement to get to heaven (CKHL), and when they told that if they pray about it God will tell them it is true, they basically have two alternatives: Either they have the spiritual confirmation and are in line with God's will and will get to heaven, OR they don't get the confirmation and realize that they are not good enough to feel the spirit, they will Not go to heaven (CKHL) and they are not in line with God's will. This speaks of a double bind. It messes with one's mind.

Is it any question why women went along with it? They had to... or face the "realization" that there was something very wrong with themselves and they were not worthy of God or whatever.

I know of a similar situation where a spiritual leader at a yoga center began to have revelations that he was to unite with various women. MANY women went along with it because they felt it was God's will. They didn't want to but they had faith in their leader.

My point is, the fact that some women claimed to have spiritual witness of polygamy IMO, speaks to the difficult situation in which the women were placed.

Opps... one more point....

I have worked with many, many abused women. It is the norm for women to deny their abuse. I can see a woman in a hospital beaten and bruised and two days later in court she is denying she was battered. This is a common occurrence. It is not that the women are lying. It is that their situation is too difficult to integrate into their reality.

I've worked with many women who are court ordered to go through counseling (while their husbands are in jail), just so they can be helped to see their reality more clearly. It usually takes a few weeks for a woman to get to a place where she can even speak of the abuse and admit to herself what is going on.

My point being, when I hear women glorify polygamy, I wonder how much it is truly wonderful and the perfect picture they may paint or if it is the way they have chosen to cope.

I honor the women who had the courage to do what they felt they had to do... I equally honor those who would not go along with it.

~dancer~

Edit - typo

[Del March]

As a woman, I think that righteous polygamy, where everyone involved is full of charity and selflessness (which IS the way people will eventually be in the Celestial Kingdom AND the way we should be on this Earth) can indeed be a wonderful thing.

For example:

(1) No woman needs be alone anymore (adult company) when her husband is out working.

(2) No woman needs deny herself anymore, since there is always someone else to take over if she needs to take a rest.

(3) No woman needs put her health at risk by over-extending herself anymore, since there is always someone else to help her.

(4) No woman needs be a super-woman anymore, raising the kids, cooking, cleaning and VTing at the same time, because there is always someone to share those duties with.

And so on.

Personally, I would LOVE to have a woman friend to share my life with, in a sisterly way. For that matter, I would love to have my own sister living with us, though my husband most probably wouldn't (she would drive him crazy in no time )

And sexually? Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is here. I never pretended to be a sex goddess or whatever. If my husband can find additional pleasure with another woman, I'd be glad to let them have some fun, as long as they extend the same courtesy back to me.

Finally, emotionally, I'd think that it would be the man who would suffer most, in a charitable plural marriage. He would be the only man having to care for several women's emotional needs, while there would be several women to care for his own needs. Sometimes I wish there were another woman here to help me care for my husband's emotional needs. And also, I sometimes wish I could talk of some problems to another woman instead of to my husband.

Is polygamy a bad thing in a Telestial kind of family? Yes. But is it a bad thing in a Celestial kind of family? I don't think so. (And I'm convinced that earthly families CAN be of the Celestial kind, if people truly want it).

Del

[truth dancer]

Hi Del...

As a woman, I think that righteous polygamy, where everyone involved is full of charity and selflessness (which IS the way people will eventually be in the Celestial Kingdom AND the way we should be on this Earth) can indeed be a wonderful thing.

I suppose any group of people that love each other can be a great thing... there are all sorts of alternative partnerships out there... Gay couples would tell you the same thing...

(1) No woman needs be alone anymore (adult company) when her husband is out working.

I don't get this. A woman doesn't have to be sleeping with your husband for you to hang out with friends... hmmm

(2) No woman needs deny herself anymore, since there is always someone else to take over if she needs to take a rest.

Well, most women are able to have sex much more frequently than men. If a guy has, say, five wives that dosn't make for much satisfaction for the women... How would a man feel if he only was allowed to have sex with his wife a few times a month?

(3) No woman needs put her health at risk by over-extending herself anymore, since there is always someone else to help her.

I don't understand this either... again, why must one be sleeping with one's huband to be able to help a friend? This makes no sense to me. Also, when I have company visit us for a time, the work load doesn't get less it gets MORE...

(4) No woman needs be a super-woman anymore, raising the kids, cooking, cleaning and VTing at the same time, because there is always someone to share those duties with.

Again, more people, more work.

Personally, I would LOVE to have a woman friend to share my life with, in a sisterly way. For that matter, I would love to have my own sister living with us, though my husband most probably wouldn't (she would drive him crazy in no time )

Why does a women sleeping with your husband all of a sudden mean you are going to be great friends? Why do you need a woman to sleep with your husband to have friends? I truly don't get this line of thinking.

And sexually? Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is here. I never pretended to be a sex goddess or whatever. If my husband can find additional pleasure with another woman, I'd be glad to let them have some fun, as long as they extend the same courtesy back to me.

So, affairs are great?

Would your husband be OK with you sleeping around too? I mean why let a guy have all the fun but a woman is stuck with having to have sex, a couple dozen times a year with the same guy?

Finally, emotionally, I'd think that it would be the man who would suffer most, in a charitable plural marriage. He would be the only man having to care for several women's emotional needs, while there would be several women to care for his own needs. Sometimes I wish there were another woman here to help me care for my husband's emotional needs. And also, I sometimes wish I could talk of some problems to another woman instead of to my husband.

OK.. lets say there are five women each with five children... (basically single parents here). How much time do you think they can devote to taking care of hubby? And of course a man is not going to be able to parent 25 kids appropriately, not to mention find the time to connect emotionally with his women. Most women do not enjoy sex without some emotional component in the relationship. I find the idea of women needing to sleep with a man she doesn't feel much connection to, to be rather humiliating. (I'm suggesting that with five women and 25 kids there isn't exactly a lot of quality alone time... )

Is polygamy a bad thing in a Telestial kind of family? Yes. But is it a bad thing in a Celestial kind of family? I don't think so. (And I'm convinced that earthly families CAN be of the Celestial kind, if people truly want it).

I'm not sure exactly what you mean here...

If we look over the last, say, several thousand years we see the ability within the human to connect more deeply with each other. We see men and women wanting more than the animalistic sex, we see men and women wanting more than a primitive partnership for the sole purpose of survival of the species.

What we see is men and women enjoying the unity and closeness of a relationship. We see emotional needs that were not apparent thousands of years ago. We see men and women feeling romantic which is quite a new phenomenon in the human (IIRC only about 800 years old).

I think the human is evolving to feel a beauty and holiness that comes from very deep intimacy and emotional closeness which goes way beyond the mating of many years ago.

IMO, polygamy speaks to the very primitive ideas of mating in an animalistic sense... it is a BIG step backwards in evolution. It is about men just being sperm doners.

I believe pretty strongly in the idea of balance and harmony in the universe. Call it yin/yang if you wish. It seems that this is a crucial aspect of existence (not just life). The idea of a man with multiple women speaks of disharmony and imbalance to me.

I think this is why we have evolved to understand equality. I think this is why the human has "invented" compassion. I think this is why many find something morally wrong with a man owning a harem or having multiple wives. For many it speaks to an innate understanding or awareness of thwarting the evolving depth of relationship....

I believe there is a reason why we are evolving to know the beauty and closeness that is possible as a couple unites in the deepest ways. I don't see this as physical, emotionally, mentally, spiritually possible if their is imbalance.

It is my opinion that we are coming to understand unity in ways that have not been understood (as far as we know) in the universe. We are moving way beyond instinct to a place where new emotions can exist in the human. I find this holy and deeply divine.

Just how I see it...

~dancer~

[ave maria]

Hi Del...

As a woman, I think that righteous polygamy, where everyone involved is full of charity and selflessness (which IS the way people will eventually be in the Celestial Kingdom AND the way we should be on this Earth) can indeed be a wonderful thing.

I suppose any group of people that love each other can be a great thing... there are all sorts of alternative partnerships out there... Gay couples would tell you the same thing...

Polygamy would make a lot more sense if in Genesis God had created more than one woman for Adam.

And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.

23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

(Noting that wife is singular)

[dude]

QUOTE

[Blink]

The reason Henry

[truth dancer]

Hi Blink...

LDS polygamy was not about righteousness, exaltation, or any other virtuous or lovely thing. LDS polygamy was about power, dynasty building, and sex. It was a product of the minds of men, administered by men, and stopped by men. Thank God the US government finally got off their collective duffs and forced the leaders' hand. That which was born in lies and deceit, perpetuated by pressure and sacrifice, died shamefully in the desert. And now according to our current prophet, that's all behind us. If it was truly all behind us, we'd rip Sec 132 from our canon. As long as there's a manmade revelation in our canon, we will never be free of the legacy shame that plural marriage brings us.

VERY BEAUTIFULLY STATED.

WOW!!!!!

~dancer~

[Guest Lori]

I find it strange that (some of) the same people who seem to applaud or rationalize polygamy speak of affairs as horrible and unhealthy.... the effects are exactly the same. Even if you think God sanctioned/commanded/demanded a man to possess multiple women, I find it silliness to suggest that it is all great while at the same time condemning men who have multiple partners yet call it something different.

My final point (for now... ) When a woman believes that a man is a prophet of God and God speaks to him, when the prophet tells these women that God has demanded that they engage in this lifestyle, when the prophet tells them that it is a requirement to get to heaven (CKHL), and when they told that if they pray about it God will tell them it is true, they basically have two alternatives: Either they have the spiritual confirmation and are in line with God's will and will get to heaven, OR they don't get the confirmation and realize that they are not good enough to feel the spirit, they will Not go to heaven (CKHL) and they are not in line with God's will. This speaks of a double blind. It messes with one's mind.

Is it any question why women went along with it? They had to... or face the "realization" that there was something very wrong with themselves and they were not worthy of God or whatever.

I know of a similar situation where a spiritual leader at a yoga center began to have revelations that he was to unite with various women. MANY women went along with it because they felt it was God's will. They didn't want to but they had faith in their leader.

My point is, the fact that some women claimed to have spiritual witness of polygamy IMO, speaks to the difficult situation in which the women were placed.

Opps... one more point....

I have worked with many, many abused women. It is the norm for women to deny their abuse. I can see a woman in a hospital beaten and bruised and two days later in court she is denying she was battered. This is a common occurrence. It is not that the women are lying. It is that their situation is too difficult to integrate into their reality.

I've worked with many women who are court ordered to go through counseling (while their husbands are in jail), just so they can be helped to see their reality more clearly. It usually takes a few weeks for a woman to get to a place where she can even speak of the abuse and admit to herself what is going on.

My point being, when I hear women glorify polygamy, I wonder how much it is truly wonderful and the perfect picture they may paint or if it is the way they have chosen to cope.

I honor the women who had the courage to do what they felt they had to do... I equally honor those who would not go along with it.

~dancer~

I agree completely. I am forced to make a similar choice if I accept this as a commandment. If I am a faithful LDS then I have to accept this as a commandment and all the other abominations that were a part of it. I have to accept D & C 132 as revelation from God if I believe in polygamy. This forces me to choose in what I know in my heart is wickedness and between the church.

If I feel it's evil, then I must not be praying enough, humble enough, reading enough and so on. This really messes with my mind. It leaves me thinking maybe I am just not a true Latter Day Saint or I would be defending it. Why have others found enough peace with it to support it and even claim they would live it if commanded!

As one of the members said here:

"some of us know sin when we see it."

I find it reprehensible to defend Brigham and Joseph's sins. It doesn't make the Book of Mormon false.