Could Joseph Smith be a "Fallen Prophet"

[Moxy]

Lori, you NOT alone, a lot of people are stumped on this very topic. Ask anyone in church and you will probably get the same reaction. I just wanted to say, your not alone....We all know the pains and gains in the LDS church. We want it to be the absolute truth in all respects. But then there is this nagging question..and it nags and nags.....yea...been there

[Del March]

But then there is this nagging question..and it nags and nags.....yea...been there

It nagged me only until I asked God.

Did you ask God, Lori?

Del

[Dale]

Hi,

Lori about your issue with revelations some possibly being true & others not that's a choice. I could have decided to use the Bible alone, but I like the Book of Mormon. Van Hale an LDS radio talk show host views the Book of Mormon as inspiring fiction. He has his religious committments & will never join another faith. Perhaps similarly you could view D&C 132 as inspiring fiction & leave the matter in God's hands.

I considered repudiating Mormonism & joining just another Christian Church. Since I didn't believe the Bible had to be my final authority & I like the Book of Mormon I can use it. The problem isn't whether D.&C. 132 could be myth, but the whole issue with problems with modern revelation.

The Book of Doctrine & Covenants does teach a President of the church can be in transgression. I also know Joseph Smith Jr. knew "some revelations were of man, others of God, and others of the devil. He felt the other leaders & members should have a sayso as to where a document was of God, or not. The LDS Church accepted it & the RLDS church did not.

It's also possible that Joseph Smith Jr. could have badly interpreted the earlier polygamy revelation during the last few earthly years he practiced it. He was human. If there's no eternal plural marriage his polygamy ended with his death. If he still has his wives then you will know it sooner, or later. I guess all of us will. In the now we have to make a guess. I like my warm & fuzzy experiences with the Book of Mormon.

Sincerely,

Dale

[Mor-Atheist]

Hi everyone, this is post number one for me, you will all see me around quite often I am sure

I have to start out by agreeing with one of Lori's first posts. As a missionary, I have not seen any one doctrine close so many doors to me as did plural marriage. If the argument of "it was used to build the church" is what most LDS people agree with, then what are their thoughts of how it is limiting the growth today (keep in mind that this stone cut from the mountain still has a LONG way to go).

That being said, my real problems with the doctrine are that people can actually see statements like this being made, and still believe:

The only men who become Gods, even the Sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 11, page 269)

"principle of plurality of wives never will be done away" (Heber C. Kimball -Deseret News, Nov. 7, 1855)

"Some quietly listen to those who speak... against the plurality of wives, and against almost every principle that God has revealed. Such persons have half-a-dozen devils with them all the time. You might as well deny 'Mormonism,' and turn away from it, as to oppose the plurality of wives. Let the Presidency of this Church, and the Twelve Apostles, and all the authorities unite and say with one voice that they will oppose the doctrine, and the whole of them will be damned." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 203

Doesn't the statement above encompass the Manifesto that stopped it as well?

So we have prophets and apostles saying this will not end, it ends, and everyone is ok with this?

[Scott Gordon]

See, I am not throwing the "baby out with the bath water." Why isn't it possible that some revelations are not from God when we know that a some of D & C were thoughts that came into his mind. Why would I trust this revelation any more than any of the others that we decide to dismiss?

While I don't disagree with your thoughts in principle, in this particular case you would have to dismiss the revelations that the women had on this.

Scott

[Mor-Atheist]

Just curious Del, what exactly did god say to you when you asked him?

[The Mormonator]

PS. Food for thought... Peter was a habitual liar. Paul was a self convicted murderer. And you beleive their testimonies. What makes JS and BY any different?

...And Abraham was an an attempted murderer, a Polygamist and deceptive about his wife. His grandson Jacob was also a Polygamist. Their Progenitor, Moses, was a killer.

But that's all fine and dandy. Let's read about their lovely little, faith promoting stories in the Bible and and sings hymns of joy!!!

But Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were EVIL POLYGAMIST DEVILS!!!

---The Double Standard is Thick as Siberian Tar---

[Mor-Atheist]

"---The Double Standard is Thick as Siberian Tar--- "

That is why everyone should be atheist, you would be able to see that both of them are full of contradictions that limit their credibility

[Zakuska]

So we have prophets and apostles saying this will not end, it ends, and everyone is ok with this?

We have right in the Bible that the prohibition on certian kinds of meat would be perpretual thoughout your generations. Yet here comes the NT and out the window that goes... Ah I got it. Its alright for it to happen in the Bible... but if JS or BY did it... they get Damned to Hell.

Gotcha...

The Double Standards are thik!

[Mor-Atheist]

That would have meant something if I actually believed the bible to be anything other than a bunch of myths mixed in with some history.

As it stands, the discrepancies in the bible ARE the reason I threw it out, along with my LDS faith.

I came to the conclusion that either an omnipotent god couldn't find an effective way to get the SAME "soul saving" info to everyone, or there was no god in the first place.

I think it is evident by history that man has a way of coming up with things on his own that makes sense to him, then say it came from god to get other people to follow.

[GravyBoat]

I've mentioned this before in other posts; maybe this might help.

Social taboo, or common practice? Why is it that Edgar Allen Poe married his first cousin (who was 13 at the time), yet no one had a problem with this? Anyone mind explaining?

[Blink]

I've mentioned this before in other posts; maybe this might help.

Social taboo, or common practice? Why is it that Edgar Allen Poe married his first cousin (who was 13 at the time), yet no one had a problem with this? Anyone mind explaining?

Because Edgar Allen Poe didn't claim to be a prophet of God and label his acts as revelation?

[The Mormonator]

That is why everyone should be atheist, you would be able to see that both of them are full of contradictions that limit their credibility

OH. Right. The Bible, Christianity and religion in general is fuill of contradictions, but the philisophies and theories of men are not. Yes, they make perfect sense all the time. They are always in sync.

My friend, Humanity itself -minus all religion- is full of contradictions.

I would rather rely on the word of God than the feeble little, over-confident slimy brain of the modern secularist and/or atheist.

[The Mormonator]

I think it is evident by history that man has a way of coming up with things on his own that makes sense to him, then say it came from god to get other people to follow.

It is also evident from history the men sometimes think they have a good grip on something. They think they have it all figured out. Only to later find out they were Waaaay off; they had no friggin clue.

[Blink]

I think it is evident by history that man has a way of coming up with things on his own that makes sense to him, then say it came from god to get other people to follow.

It is also evident from history the men sometimes think they have a good grip on something. They think they have it all figured out. Only to later find out they were Waaaay off; they had no friggin clue.

Sounds like you're describing Brother Brigham and his Adam God theory.

[maxrep12]

Hey Mormonator,

good to see you back! You made yourself scarce for awhile there.

[Mor-Atheist]

"My friend, Humanity itself -minus all religion- is full of contradictions."

So now we have determined that Religion is full of contradictions and man is also

You have just proven the point that religion was created by man.

[Mor-Atheist]

Mormonator wrote:

"It is also evident from history the men sometimes think they have a good grip on something. They think they have it all figured out. Only to later find out they were Waaaay off; they had no friggin clue."

The difference being when I have been wrong about something, I can easily change my opinion and move on.

In my 30 years of being in the church I learned that when I disagree with an authority, I was the one that was wrong. If you think I am wrong here, then go preach any subject in a sacrament meeting that you may disagree with the authorites on and see how that goes over.

[Zakuska]

I think it is evident by history that man has a way of coming up with things on his own that makes sense to him, then say it came from god to get other people to follow.

It is also evident from history the men sometimes think they have a good grip on something. They think they have it all figured out. Only to later find out they were Waaaay off; they had no friggin clue.

Sounds like you're describing Brother Brigham and his Adam God theory.

Or Peter and his abstanation of meats.

[noel00]

From http://www.lauricellas.com/clint/zinabook2.htm the following:

That there was a good deal of gossip about Zina Jacobs in Nauvoo is evidenced by the statements of John D. Lee and William Hall. The former wrote: "I then took a tour down through Illinios [winter of 1842]. H.B. Jacobs accompanied me as a fellow companion on the way. Jacobs was bragging about his wife, what a true, virtious, lovely woman she was. He almost worshipped her. Little did he think that in his absence she was sealed to the Prophet Joseph."

[Blink]

"my property"? Oh yes, that phrase shows exactly how these women were viewed by a prophet. But he was just a product of his culture, and certainly not speaking as a prophet. An outstanding example of the quality of our leaders.

[truth dancer]

Hi Lori...

I'm jumping into this thread late and have only skimmed most of the posts....

But I want to first say my heart goes out to you.

When I discovered what actually occurred with polygamy I did pray and pray and pray and fast and meditate and plead with God to know.... my answer was ALWAYS consistently, "It is NOT of God." (One of the most powerful "revelations" I have ever received was actually in the temple addressing this issue).

Now, I don't believe in God as do you but I do feel that we can go to a place of peace and stillness where we can find our truth, where we can let go of our ego issues and access a greater sense of unity and holiness.

My understanding of the Bible is that it is a story of humanity. It is a story of man's (not humankind's) attempt to answer the difficult questions. Since the origins of patriarchy women have been owned as either wives, concubines or slaves. I don't think this is of God... it is the legacy of the nomadic tribes.

It is my opinion that the consciousness of the human has moved to a place where many understand (and desire) a beauty and depth within a relationship that goes beyond ownership. I think the fact that much of the world understands and values women as something other than possessions and object to please men, speaks to the growing and expanding depth of love and compassion that is possible.

To me the idea of modern polygamy takes the human consciousness and compassion for women back about, what, at least a few millennia. The idea of women being treated as animals to procreate and as objects for sexual gratification and increase speaks of unholiness to ME.

I have spent a lot of time and read many, many books on this topic from every perspective. I have prayed and prayed and pleaded for understanding... I can't deny what is in my heart and what I believe is truth: That God did NOT in any way demand, command, suggest polygamy.

I think we can justify virtually anything if we try hard enough... I have heard every possible reason for justifying what JS did and for polygamy. NONE of it works for me.

My only bit of advice is to listen to your heart. Listen to your sense of morality. Listen to your truth.

Blessings of peace,

~dancer~

Ohhh one more thing. Of the dozens and dozens of books I have read on this topic, the best book (by far) is, "The Origins of Patriarcy" by Gerda Lerner. It does not address Mormonism or modern day polygamy specifically but it is a comprehensive study and historical work on marriage and patriarchy that may shed some light for you.

[Zakuska]

"my property"? Oh yes, that phrase shows exactly how these women were viewed by a prophet. But he was just a product of his culture, and certainly not speaking as a prophet. An outstanding example of the quality of our leaders.

And in one fail swoop Wazing/Serenity/Harmony/Blink single handedly removes all references to ownership from the english language.

We may no long say...

My Wife

My Girlfriend

My Daughter

My Son

My Parents

My Siblings

The car is mine

[Blink]

"my property"? Oh yes, that phrase shows exactly how these women were viewed by a prophet. But he was just a product of his culture, and certainly not speaking as a prophet.  An outstanding example of the quality of our leaders. 

And in one fail swoop Wazing/Serenity/Harmony/Blink single handedly removes all references to ownership from the english language.

We may no long say...

My Wife

My Girlfriend

My Daughter

My Son

My Parents

My Siblings

The car is mine

So do you think of your relationship with your wife as one of owner and property on the same par as your ownership of your car, Zak? Wow.

You don't own your wife; she's her own person. If you can't see the difference between owning property and owning a person, then we really don't have much to talk about, Zak.

[Zakuska]

My wife owns me just as much as I own her.

We are one.

And you cant tell me that your kids don't own you!