Could Joseph Smith be a "Fallen Prophet"

[truth dancer]

Hi Lori...

I agree completely. I am forced to make a similar choice if I accept this as a commandment. If I am a faithful LDS then I have to accept this as a commandment and all the other abominations that were a part of it. I have to accept D & C 132 as revelation from God if I believe in polygamy. This forces me to choose in what I know in my heart is wickedness and between the church.

If I feel it's evil, then I must not be praying enough, humble enough, reading enough and so on. This really messes with my mind. It leaves me thinking maybe I am just not a true Latter Day Saint or I would be defending it. Why have others found enough peace with it to support it and even claim they would live it if commanded!

I think there are those who manage to stay in the church without believing in polygamy... they put the issue on the "back burner" or go to a place of, "we don't know everything," or "Gods ways are not man's ways," or "trust in God, it will all work out." etc.etc.

I know for me, I could not work through it in a way that brought peace to my heart and mind.

Like you I could not justify, rationalize, minimize, ignore this. It didn't feel holy to me to do so.

Like you I struggled for many years trying to figure out what was wrong with me that I couldn't believe some of the teachings/doctrine of the church... I went through the whole range of emotions and concerns... finally it got to be too much and I had to go with what was in my own heart. In the end I was able to release the church and follow what I believe to be truth. It was not an easy time.

But, as I stated I do know those who do NOT believe polygamy was of God (or good or right or anything lovely), and have just put it out of their consciousness so as to be able to go forth.

I wish I could offer some solace.... it is a heartwrenching place in which to be!

Blessings and hugs,

~dancer~

[yaanufs]

I'm sure this question has been answerwed somewhere on this forum but what books would people suggest as reasonable accounts of polygamy in the church?

I'm not looking for a particularly positive or negative spin on the whole deal but more of balanced approach. I understand that most books will have a particular agenda either way but some will probably be more extreme in their views than others, those are the ones I'd probably not be interested in reading. I also realise that one persons unbiased account is another persons one-sided view.

I'm just curious, maybe enough to read a couple of accounts.

[truth dancer]

Hi Y....

You may want to check out www.wives of joseph smith.org

There are several great books listed as well as a brief historical account of JS and his wives. I found the site to be very unbiased... just basically presenting facts.

In Sacred Lonliness is one of the best... but just to warn you, it is heartwrenching. I could only manage a chapter a day because my spirit just couldn't handle it!

~dancer~

[Guest Lori]

I think there are those who manage to stay in the church without believing in polygamy... they put the issue on the "back burner" or go to a place of, "we don't know everything," or "Gods ways are not man's ways," or "trust in God, it will all work out." etc.etc.

I know for me, I could not work through it in a way that brought peace to my heart and mind.

Like you I could not justify, rationalize, minimize, ignore this. It didn't feel holy to me to do so.

Like you I struggled for many years trying to figure out what was wrong with me that I couldn't believe some of the teachings/doctrine of the church... I went through the whole range of emotions and concerns... finally it got to be too much and I had to go with what was in my own heart. In the end I was able to release the church and follow what I believe to be truth. It was not an easy time.

But, as I stated I do know those who do NOT believe polygamy was of God (or good or right or anything lovely), and have just put it out of their consciousness so as to be able to go forth.

I wish I could offer some solace.... it is a heartwrenching place in which to be!

Blessings and hugs,

~dancer~

Thank you-

I was one of those that kept pushing it out of my mind and everytime I thought about it I would be so sick and pray for understanding. That has been most of my life. Even as a child I asked questions like "why did they have to marry the women? Why couldn't they just give them welfare support if it was to help the poor?"

I had no idea of the scandels in the history of polygamy until the last few months.

Polygamy is a sick enough thing to understand even if it's done with full honesty and wife's full blessing. But to have it done the way our Prophets did, makes it obvious to me what it was all about.

Power and sex.

I wonder how many women are like me-completely in the dark on the history. I know most women in the church don't ever talk about polygamy except to make light humor about it.

Thanks for your support

[truth dancer]

Hi Lori....

I think few women (or men for that matter) really know much about polygamy.

It is something that most people don't want to really think about these days. It is better for many to just not go there! There is too much at stake.

Once I observed a discussion amoung several women during RS... not one of them had any inclination that JS had plural wives in any way other than many women sealing themselves to him after he died. It was sort of sad because one women commented how anti mormons say JS actually married other men's wives and teenagers. They started condemning those who left the church and couldn't support JS stating these men had no faith and Satan influenced them etc. etc. I actually had to walk out of RS needing to get a drink of water...

~dancer~

[Guest Lori]

I'm sure this question has been answerwed somewhere on this forum but what books would people suggest as reasonable accounts of polygamy in the church?

I'm not looking for a particularly positive or negative spin on the whole deal but more of balanced approach. I understand that most books will have a particular agenda either way but some will probably be more extreme in their views than others, those are the ones I'd probably not be interested in reading. I also realise that one persons unbiased account is another persons one-sided view.

I'm just curious, maybe enough to read a couple of accounts.

"Mormon Polygamy" was an exellent book and one of my favorites. It gives mostly factual information and not much fluff. It goes from the start of Joseph introducing it all the way past the manifesto to the FLDS church. This book is a great reference tool for statistical information and revelations given by the prophets.

"In Sacred Lonliness" is very good but very long. It's great if you want to know all the details and journals of each of Joseph's wives. It's only about the wives of Joseph but gives you so much insight into these women and their faith. He gives you a biography on each wife but not Emma. He does draw a lot of conclusions in his writing which makes some of it slightly biased but he is an active LDS and tries to portray polygamy in a balanced way. His agenda is to prove that the women were alone and unhappy. That was the only bias I felt reading it.

"Mormon Enigma" is another favorite. It's a bio of Emma. This was the most painful to read for me. I felt so sick for Emma. It gives her family history all the way until her death. There is a lot of polygamy information. This book won some awards.

These are the only books I would recommend. We checked with FARMS before we read anything and "In Sacred Lonliness" has reviews on it. Don't buy Fawn Brodie's book because it has a strong bias.

[yaanufs]

You may want to check out www.wives of joseph smith.org

In Sacred Lonliness is one of the best...

Thanks,

This book I found on Amazon sounds like an nice unbiased treatise on the subject

"God's Brothel: The Extortion of Sex for Salvation in Contemporary Mormon and Christian Fundamentalist Polygamy", by Andrea Moore-Emmett

Anyone else got any thoughts for books that would give a balanced and reasoned approach from the positive LDS side?

[juliann]

I'm sure this question has been answerwed somewhere on this forum but what books would people suggest as reasonable accounts of polygamy in the church?

I'm not looking for a particularly positive or negative spin on the whole deal but more of balanced approach. I understand that most books will have a particular agenda either way but some will probably be more extreme in their views than others, those are the ones I'd probably not be interested in reading. I also realise that one persons unbiased account is another persons one-sided view.

I'm just curious, maybe enough to read a couple of accounts.

The FAIR bookstore carries several. More and more are coming out each year looking at it from different angles. Compton, Daynes, Flake for starters....and I think that BY's grandson's book..."Isn't One Wife Enough?" or something like has many valuable anecdotal stories. Although an exie he was interested in examining the situation. There is a reason you are not seeing anyone putting up quotes from scholars who do dispassionately study this era...one reason is that it is improper to speak of plural marriage as a lump entity. It changed and needs to be addressed by era.

[juliann]

Hi Y....

You may want to check out www.wives of joseph smith.org

There are several great books listed as well as a brief historical account of JS and his wives. I found the site to be very unbiased... just basically presenting facts.

If you like sites that find a small negative comment from a woman who supported polygamy throughout her lifetime so that they can make it sound like she didn't ....this is the place for you! That you would consider this a good site is proof that you have not read a thing, TD.

[Zakuska]

On the contrary TD.

God did the Giving... now unless you are willing to blame God... I am not.

[Guest Lori]

Hi Lori....

I think few women (or men for that matter) really know much about polygamy.

It is something that most people don't want to really think about these days. It is better for many to just not go there! There is too much at stake.

Once I observed a discussion amoung several women during RS... not one of them had any inclination that JS had plural wives in any way other than many women sealing themselves to him after he died. It was sort of sad because one women commented how anti mormons say JS actually married other men's wives and teenagers. They started condemning those who left the church and couldn't support JS stating these men had no faith and Satan influenced them etc. etc. I actually had to walk out of RS needing to get a drink of water...

~dancer~

I am embarrassed to say that I could have been one of those. I think it's well taught to us as children that everything negative about the prophet or church is lies and anti-mormon people make it up because they are influenced by Satan. A few months ago when somebody told me Joseph made proposals to married women while their husbands were on missions I didn't believe it. So I did research on it to see if it was true and here I am. I think I represented many of the women in the church who have been born into it and lived in a Mormon bubble.

My mom converted to the church at 14. She saw a movie called the "God Makers" and was told it was all lies when she was joining the church. I haven't seen that so I can't verify it, but she believed it was of Satan. If I were to tell her anything I have learned she would think I have been deceived by those anti mormons.

I will never look at apostates the same. They have every right to leave after all the lies of our church. I remember in Sunday School as a child having a lesson about the restoration and about Martin Harris and David Whitmer (all the apostates) I was taught that the reason they left the church was that it was just to hard to live it. They never denied their testimony but just couldn't live all of Gods commandments. SO as a child I get images of them drinking, smoking, cheating on their spouses etc. Now I find out most of them left over Joseph's adultery and it makes me so upset. Now I find out most apostates leave the church over it's deceptive history. Not because they were "offended" by a member or cheating on their spouse. (not that some don't but I would bet most leave after finding out the history)

The truth needs to be told so that people have real testimonies.

[Zakuska]

On the contrary TD.

God di the giving... now if you are will to blame God... God for it. I am not.

[juliann]

Here is enough to get you started...and this is only from publishers that FAIR deals with. http://www.fair-lds.org/Merchant2/merchant...age=FOS/CTGY/Po

As you go through three pages (and growing) you will understand why it is easier to grunt and point than become informed enough to actually discuss the available scholarship.

[juliann]

The book "In Sacred Lonliness" provides a reliable view into the practice of plural marriage, and it also provides a much needed balance to the fictitious traditional spin that the Mormon church improperly perpetuates. Plural marriage was and is an abomination. The knee-jerk labelling of reliable books like "In Sacred Lonliness" as "one-sided" is unwarranted. In this case, the historical record has dealt Mormonism a fair hand, and some Latter-Day Saints still claim unfair treatment.

Baloney. It is time you guys stopped misusing Compton. His work does not support your self-righteous moralizing...which is why no one ever gets around to quoting him. No book is without flaws. His book is in the FAIR bookstore and is highly regarded so get another stick to wave.

[truth dancer]

Hi Juliann...

If you like sites that find a small negative comment from a woman who supported polygamy throughout her lifetime so that they can make it sound like she didn't ....this is the place for you! That you would consider this a good site is proof that you have not read a thing, TD.

My observation is that most have NO idea JS married other mens' wives or girls.

The site gives a well documented overview describing the wives of JS.

For those who have no idea about JS and polygamy it is a beginning.

~dancer~

[truth dancer]

Hi Zak....

God di the giving... now if you are will to blame God... God for it. I am not.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what this means.

~dancer~

[truth dancer]

Hi Juliann...

I'm curious...

Do you feel polygamy was divinely inspired? That Joseph Smith was directed by God?

If not how do you work through it? Or IOW, how do you make sense of it? What is your opinion of the whole thing?

~dancer~

[Zakuska]

Hi Zak....

God di the giving... now if you are will to blame God... God for it. I am not.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure what this means.

~dancer~

2 sam 12:6-7

Are you blamming God?

[truth dancer]

Hi Zak...

Are you blamming God?

Two things...

Blaming God for what?

And I don't think God is a person/being/man on which to blame anything...

~dancer~

[Zakuska]

God gave David his wifes through nathan.

[1dc]

. . all is right according to the Law of the Celestial Kingdom of our God . . .

[Zakuska]

Hi Juliann...

If you like sites that find a small negative comment from a woman who supported polygamy throughout her lifetime so that they can make it sound like she didn't ....this is the place for you! That you would consider this a good site is proof that you have not read a thing, TD.

My observation is that most have NO idea JS married other mens' wives or girls.

The site gives a well documented overview describing the wives of JS.

For those who have no idea about JS and polygamy it is a beginning.

~dancer~

Does it mention Joseph Marrying other womens husbands?

[truth dancer]

Hi Zak...

Does it mention Joseph Marrying other womens husbands?

Its been a while since I checked out the site but IIRC it lists all the wives of JS, gives dates, ages, if they were married to other men or not, stuff like that...

It is well put together... you should check it out!

And Zak... NO I DON"T THINK GOD gave anyone wives... anymore than I think God gave them slaves or concubines or camels or jewels or land...

At least I hope God is does not think of women in this way... ahhhh!!!

~dancer~

[Zakuska]

Well.. Joseph was sealed to men too yet I don't see anyone like Lori getting their g-strings in a wad that he was gay.

[truth dancer]

Hi Zak...

Well.. Joseph was sealed to men too yet I don't see anyone like Lori getting their g-strings in a wad that he was gay.

Well Zak... maybe its because no woman has claimed JS wanted to take away her husband!!! And we don't have accounts of JS and some guy in the barn!! At least I don't think so...

~dancer~