Could Joseph Smith be a "Fallen Prophet"

[jefftt6356]

Lori,

As an active Member of the Church who has returned after a 11 year absent. I can tell you that Satan will wisper things to take away your tesimony. I allowed some thing so small to take away 11 years of freindship and fellowship with members. I beleive that Joseph Smith was an annointed Prophet by God, which means that I do not question his motives. Their are many enemies of Joseph Smith and the Church, and many false accounts. I have my faith, as should you. The Church is true and satan will tell you otherwise, so that he can win.

[Guest Lori]

Have you put equal amounts of time into trying to understand polygamy as you have trying to find fault with it. You will not admit that many women at the time by their own admission had no problem with it you just scream FLDS. From your posts and yes I have read them all it seems to me you have devoted your time to ferreting out lies and guess what you will find exactly what you are looking for it is called self fulfilling prophecy. In your posts you have not discussed any talks with your husband, Bishop stake President on the subject nor your answers or non answers to your prayers on it. That is why I say agenda. It sounds to me that you made your decision long before posting here.

I have been talking to my husband out this 24-7 since learning about the real history. I haven't gone to my Stake President yet because I don't want them involoved until I look at everything. (which by the way is none of your business) Did you not notice that I am at FAIR? I came here to get the other side-the apologist side. So far I haven't heard any apologist statements that make any sense. I do have my mind up that I will never be a polygamist. If an angel with a sword came to me and commanded it I would rather be destroyed because polygamy would be hell. So in that way I do have my mind made up. I am looking for understanding on it in case the history has been tainted. I want to see if there is this "other side" that is wonderful and that the women really felt spiritually perfected by it. I want to understand why none of this polygamy history makes any sense and contradicts so many things we are commanded to do yet it makes perfect sense that it was from Satan.

[heavymental]

Did you not notice that I am at FAIR? I came here to get the other side-the apologist side

This is the worst place you could be for the other side... The internet is the worst place to find answers pro and con

[Zakuska]

As far as the press goes... You do realize that several Mormon presses had been destroyed by mobbing prior to this. Completely illegally. At least a town council was ajurned in the case of the Expostitor. To see if it where legal. It was legal under the laws to abate the paper... but the actual press its self should not have been touched. Even Joseph offer to pay damages. The Mob killed him before he could make good his word.

You also probaly heard about the guns right?

[Guest Lori]

Did you not notice that I am at FAIR? I came here to get the other side-the apologist side

This is the worst place you could be for the other side... The internet is the worst place to find answers pro and con

Well the church book store is obviously the wrong place so where can I get a real honest apologist view? I thought it was FAIR

[Zakuska]

We can see by the questions you are asking and in the way you have been asking that you've bought into a lot of the Anti-Mormon garbage on the internet Lori.

[pchan]

Lori

I am sorry. I was harsh. And you are right it is none of my business. I jumped when I read something about history tells of the lies of Joseph and was unkind.

I am aware of all the things that you have discussed about polygamy and am no more comfortable with it in practice than you are. I know that I have many more questions than that about the restored gospel as well as Christainaity in general. None however relating to my Saviour or the atonement. When I read the BofM when I teach the principles of the gospel the spirit speaks peace to my heart. And then when I pray for it I find either the answers that I need or the patients to wait for that answer later. God Bless you on your own journey

[Guest Lori]

We can see by the questions you are asking and in the way you have been asking that you've bought into a lot of the Anti-Mormon garbage on the internet Lori.

This is the same garbage mormons are told since children- Anything negative about the church is considered of Satan and anti-mormon. I have been living in this sanitized environment my entire life. I was hoping to find people here who have been through this painful process and still came out of it with a firm testimony of everything in the Doctrine and Covenants. I feel like I am being bullied here.

The only "garbage" I have bought into came from the books "Mormon Enigma," "In Sacred Lonliness," and "Mormon Polygamy." My husband did research on anything I read before we bought it. We checked the FARMS reviews. We were very selective and I haven't read any other books other than these. SO if you want to call those books garbage so be it, but I thought they were historical.

I don't like to speak for my husband, but he is having a tough time with this too. We are reading it together. So don't make accusations against me. THis is tougher on a woman than you can even imagine. I haven't found any books on the joys of polygamy so if you have some please let me know.

[Guest Lori]

Lori

I am sorry. I was harsh. And you are right it is none of my business. I jumped when I read something about history tells of the lies of Joseph and was unkind.

I am aware of all the things that you have discussed about polygamy and am no more comfortable with it in practice than you are. I know that I have many more questions than that about the restored gospel as well as Christainaity in general. None however relating to my Saviour or the atonement. When I read the BofM when I teach the principles of the gospel the spirit speaks peace to my heart. And then when I pray for it I find either the answers that I need or the patients to wait for that answer later. God Bless you on your own journey

Thank you. I appreciate that a lot.

[Zakuska]

This world is not a sanatized place Lori.

Ive tried to give you how ive delt with it... but all I get is that im weird and I dont interpret scripture correctly and im a troll. So be it.

I turned to the scripture for my answers.

[leeuniverse]

Did you not notice that I am at FAIR? I came here to get the other side-the apologist side

This is the worst place you could be for the other side... The internet is the worst place to find answers pro and con

Well the church book store is obviously the wrong place so where can I get a real honest apologist view? I thought it was FAIR

Go to Deseret Books and get to reading. And also actually read the materials at FAIR itself. Not it's message board. Of course, I doubt you will actually do enough, because you aren't humble and teachable enough to do what is required to figure it out, I know because I was too once until I let go, and THAT's when I learned the REAL Truth, and understood the Mind and Will of God more perfectly. You got all kinds of unrighteous judgement towards this practice ordained at times by God.

How can He teach you anything when you are His enemy now???

[heavymental]

I haven't found any books on the joys of polygamy so if you have some please let me know

Try the KJV Old Testament... God gave concubines and wives to several prophets...

[Zakuska]

But shes hung up on Jacob 2:24.

[Kemara]

So you are telling me that even though my heart and spirit feel that sex with multiple partners is sickening and immoral that I am just intolerant?  Well I guess you would support homosexual sex, killing family members for losing their virginity, mutalating girls bodies, and all the other horrific CULTURAL sins that are practiced throughout the world. (gays are not horrific just to clarify)  Just because many cultures practice polygamy doesn't make it moral or sacred.  Especially the way Joseph Smith practiced it:  Deceipt, lies, and sneaking around behind his wife's back.  What happened to those good old wedding vows?  Sarah GAVE Hagar to Abraham because she was barren.  That makes quite a difference than saying God has given you all these women so therefore the wife refusing exempts you from the law of Sarah.

My "neat little world" is based on the gospel of Jesus Christ.  It's the narrow path-not the one taken because of what's popular.  The FLDS are practicing the so called sacred honorable system right now.  Are you defending them as well?  Have you read accounts of the women who get out of that brain washed environment?

What is immoral to you?

My Dear Lori, if you want to get into a discussion about homosexuality, mutilation and other horrific cultural sins then that is fine, but don

[Zakuska]

1 Ne. 3: 7

7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I will go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.

You do believe the scripture don't you Lori?

[noel00]

I can understand Lori's revulsion over the practice, marrying other women, some quite young and some married to other men. Even if Smith did not have sex with the married ones, how would that effect the intimacy between the man his wife. She is going to be Smith's in the next life, he has to find someone else. Also if Smith had sex with the other women, one wonders how much Emma knew, how she felt about an empty bed, knowing the man she eloped with was in the arms of another woman. Did he favour one of the others over her? Zina Huntington was told by Smith that she was meant for him, however she went off and married Lyn Jacobs. He refused to perform the marriage. Later after Smith died she is sealed to Smith for eternity, given to Young for life and Lyn Jacobs is sent off on a mission. Talk about wife swapping. Lori there is not answer for your revulsion. You are just acting like a normal human being.

[Guest Lori]

I can understand Lori's revulsion over the practice, marrying other women, some quite young and some married to other men. Even if Smith did not have sex with the married ones, how would that effect the intimacy between the man his wife. She is going to be Smith's in the next life, he has to find someone else.  Also if Smith had sex with the other women, one wonders how much Emma knew, how she felt about an empty bed, knowing the man she eloped with was in the arms of another woman. Did he favour one of the others over her? Zina Huntington was told by Smith that she was meant for him, however she went off and married Lyn Jacobs. He refused to perform the marriage. Later after Smith died she is sealed to Smith for eternity, given to Young for life and Lyn Jacobs is sent off on a mission. Talk about wife swapping. Lori there is not answer for your revulsion. You are just acting like a normal human being.

I feel it's so unfair that we are not told the truth in our church. I am not talking about putting Joseph's sins in our literature. I am talking about giving the church all the doctrines and revelations pertaining to the temple, exaltation, and polygamy. This is absolutely reprehensible that I am just finding this stuff out and I am in my thirties. I don't know if I can tell my sisters because it will devestate them.

[Blink]

I have a right to know what "families are forever" really means.

Why would anyone know what "families are forever" really means? It's a sound bite, it's not doctrine. It's a PR tool to get people to invite the missionaries in their door. It's a hook.

No one knows what the after life will be like. We're all just guessing. Some people think a man in SLC knows more than they do, so they believe what he says. Some people believe the guy in Rome. There is no accounting for what some people believe.

Either find out for yourself (but then you'd be dead so you couldn't tell anyone else what you found) or just keep hoping for the best, because no one is going to be able to give you a definitive answer. They can only tell you what they believe, what they hope; no one can tell you that they know, even if they think they can.

[Dale]

Hi,

Lori,

I am not sure Joseph's marriage to Zina Huntington was more than a sealing. I see a lot of propeganda in old polygamy stories. They were trying to convince the world of the truth of plural marriage & the wives were encouraged to give testimonies. Her statement she was unhappy with Henry Jacob's & split with was an apologetic statement to avoid accusations of adultury. I see no evidence that Joseph Smith Jr. had an improper sexual relationship with her.

Words like time & eternity were thrown into all of the ceremonies. It's doubted the married Patty Sessions had a sexual relationship with Joseph Smith Jr. As long as Zina Huntington continued to live with Henry the sealing wasn't bad. I may not like it but it's not that bad. If the wife swapping was not literal but figurative Joseph Smith respected her existing relationship.

With Zina Huntington I see no complaints from her about her relationship with Brigham Young. While she lived with Henry I doubt she was assaulted by Young. If Brigham Young did not want him around her he could have put her up some place else. He didn't look like he tried to interfere with the mechanics of the marriage. Later there was a seperation. I hate to see a honey-moon every time a plural marriage occured. Zina & Henry appear to have had a mostly normal marriage.

Notice Henry served a lot of missions. And he wrote her letters. He doesn't act like a jealous husband. If I were married & my wife was cheating on me I would be quite upset. I could only tolerate a polyandrous marriage if I felt it were only a symbolic thing. On June 20th 1847 she decided to live with Brigham Young. It's understandeable that if Zina felt she was technically married to both men she could turn a sealing into an actual marriage.

Do you see any quotes that I missed, or any issue with the case I left out? I flipped through In Sacred Lonliness by Todd Comptom which I see as fiction at times. I think he speculates as much as I do. You have to have humor when you discuss this subject. It's a serious issue & people get upset. I understand where you are coming from. To I can't get upset with you for feelings I share with you. I resolved my concerns in various ways.

Sincerely,

[auteur55]

Lori, it is also important to take into considerations your testimony of Gordon B. Hinkley. If you believe he is a prophet than we should trust him when he asserts, like he did in the last General Conference, the "virtue of Joseph Smiths life." The bretheren have constantly testified that Joseph was not a fallen prophet but that he died great and honorably in the eyes of God.

[ave maria]

The bretheren have constantly testified that Joseph was not a fallen prophet but that he died great and honorably in the eyes of God.

Why wouldn't they?

[Dale]

Hi,

Atleast Lori feels Joseph Smith Jr. started out as a true prphet. David Whitmer believed Joseph Smith Jr. fell about 1833 if I recall. Those in the Comunity of Christ who feel Joseph Smith Jr. fell during the Nauvoo period of Church history. Paul M. Edwards who wrote a one vollume RLDS history once wrote me the LDS Church tends to follow the Church at Kirtland & the LDS tend to follow the Joseph Smith of Nauvoo. Of couse you still have sincere RLDS who believed polygamy evidence is trumped up. I can tolerate either view myself.

Let's say Joseph Smith Jr. was not fallen allow Lori to live with her doubts & questiions until she can feel otherwise. Be loving & supporting of her until she can feel otherwise. Here's a quote from Community of Christ D&C 162:7a. "There are many lives waiting to hear the redeeming words of the gospel, or to be lifted from hoplelessnes by the hands of loving servants, But they will be lost to you without the generous response of disciples who share from their own bounty that others might know the joy of the kingdom."

Even if you feel former Community of Christ President W. Grant M. Mcmurray was wrong he did express a true thought. Be happy if none of this above stuff bothers you.

----------

Lori, I can't just tell you just have faith, or don't have those feelings. Resolving doubts & questions on this issue took me years. I made a big mistake. I allowed the issues to convert me to nothingism. I am trying to develop the habit of reading from the Book of Mormon & Bible forevery day for atleast five minutes out of each book. I find that it calms my mind & replaces chaotic thoughts with peaceful order. You especially have to take a break when the issue most upsets you.

I think you can resolve concerns on this issue atleast partially over time. When you can study the difficulty in peace then you know you have made it. I had a book I can't remember the title or author but I think it was Lowell Bennion. I am probably not even close. But he suggested that you make a list of the main items & give a 1-10 rating on everything you believe. My faith in the Book of Mormon is a six at this point. It used to be a low 2. With everything you can have levels of faith.

Sincerely,

Dale

[Scott Gordon]

Lori, I can't just tell you just have faith, or don't have those feelings. Resolving doubts & questions on this issue took me years. I made a big mistake. I allowed the issues to convert me to nothingism. I am trying to develop the habit of reading from the Book of Mormon & Bible forevery day for atleast five minutes out of each book. I find that it calms my mind & replaces chaotic thoughts with peaceful order. You especially have to take a break when the issue most upsets you.

I think you can resolve concerns on this issue atleast partially over time. When you can study the difficulty in peace then you know you have made it. I had a book I can't remember the title or author but I think it was Lowell Bennion. I am probably not even close. But he suggested that you make a list of the main items & give a 1-10 rating on everything you believe. My faith in the Book of Mormon is a six at this point. It used to be a low 2. With everything you can have levels of faith.

Sincerely,

Dale

I think this is excellent advice. Great points Dale.

Too many people have problems with one issue and then because they don't understand a part, throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Be careful with the Zina Huntington story. There is a lot more to the story than what people like to quote from Brodie.

Scott

[katherine the great]

Be careful with the Zina Huntington story. There is a lot more to the story than what people like to quote from Brodie.

Scott

Can you share?

[Guest Lori]

Lori, I can't just tell you just have faith, or don't have those feelings. Resolving doubts & questions on this issue took me years. I made a big mistake. I allowed the issues to convert me to nothingism. I am trying to develop the habit of reading from the Book of Mormon & Bible forevery day for atleast five minutes out of each book. I find that it calms my mind & replaces chaotic thoughts with peaceful order. You especially have to take a break when the issue most upsets you.

I think you can resolve concerns on this issue atleast partially over time. When you can study the difficulty in peace then you know you have made it. I had a book I can't remember the title or author but I think it was Lowell Bennion. I am probably not even close. But he suggested that you make a list of the main items & give a 1-10 rating on everything you believe. My faith in the Book of Mormon is a six at this point. It used to be a low 2. With everything you can have levels of faith.

Sincerely,

Dale

I think this is excellent advice. Great points Dale.

Too many people have problems with one issue and then because they don't understand a part, throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Be careful with the Zina Huntington story. There is a lot more to the story than what people like to quote from Brodie.

Scott

See, I am not throwing the "baby out with the bath water." Why isn't it possible that some revelations are not from God when we know that a some of D & C were thoughts that came into his mind. Why would I trust this revelation any more than any of the others that we decide to dismiss?