Could Joseph Smith be a "Fallen Prophet"

[Zakuska]

We can now look back at Polyamy and Polandry and say..with our 20/20 eyes and say...YES...that was wrong then...and it is wrong today...

I think that would be better stated...

We can now look back at Polyamy and Polandry and say..with our 21st/21st eyes and say...YES...that was wrong then...and it is wrong today...

Passing Judgement with an over inflated ego.

[Moxy]

Another factoid.

[Platypus Man]

QUOTE 

We can now look back at Polyamy and Polandry and say..with our 20/20 eyes and say...YES...that was wrong then...and it is wrong today... 

I think that would be better stated...

We can now look back at Polyamy and Polandry and say..with our 21st/21st eyes and say...YES...that was wrong then...and it is wrong today...

Passing Judgement with an over inflated ego.

Great point Zak. Now how about the vote. I want to know what I should believe because the only true belief is that which EVERYONE believes in.

[rameumptom]

Wow. I have never said Joseph was not a prophet. Is it not possible that he could have been deceived in his revelations? Look how many times they were changed! Have you forgotten that this was SEX! The most intimate of all things.

If to you, sex is the most intimate part of a relationship, then yes, you would have to consider Joseph Smith an evil man.

However, for most righteous people I know, sex is just one small part of intimacy. What about quadraplegics or others incapable of sex? Do they never experience intimacy?

Lori, I think the REAL reason for your problems is the thought of having one's husband having sex with another woman, not any of the other issues. If a relationship is so strongly based upon sex that it is the most intimate part, then I am worried about such a relationship. Upon such are built most Hollywood marriages.

When a relationship is built upon Christ-like love and intimacy, THEN there is no issue about lovingly sharing one's spouse in a God-required manner. And if that includes sex, pure love helps you get past the prejudices of our day.

In Joseph Smith's day, people would have lynched any white person marrying a black person. In our day, fewer people have a problem with such an issue. It is easy to condemn our ancestors for their actions, based upon our culturally based "superiority." It isn't as easy to learn from requirements from God.

[Zakuska]

Moxy,

Your reaching and coming up short....You can debate this until your blue in face...but you know, you cannot win the hearts of the Righteous who know sin when we see it...

Apparently not.

What would have Happened to Abraham if he had not sacrificed Isaac?

[USU78]

Moxy, I'm with you here:

Please show me in Jacob where it says Righteous seed?  'For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.'  Are you saying that NONE of the other LDS men were worthy?

But, at the same time, I've got to point out that to infer "righteous seed" from Jacob's unadorned "seed unto me" is not an outrageous step. What's "unto me" mean, after all, if not "righteous?"

And what group constitutes the backbone of the Utah Church if not the descendents of the XIXth Century polygs?

[USU78]

Jarrod:

Thanks for your thoughts. I want to convey that I have not made reason my god, but I do believe that it is a different species than religious tautology. I side a little more with Dawkins than Kant in this regard, and see reason & logic less prone to self-reference. Still, I personally allow that truth can be found in the heart, as a regular schmoe (as you put it).

I don't think we disagree much here, if at all. Here, however:

In other words, let Lori be Lori. I believe that is a better path than trying to get Lori to find reason where others (or at least I) can see no such reason. If Lori comes back to full fellowship, that's great. If her heart takes her elsewhere, that's great.

is where we part company. From the LDS worldview, to leave the Faith is to lose something of sublime value, and not only for yourself, but also for your posterity, to whom you owe a profound duty. It's not about present and perhaps transitory perceptions coloring your worldview, it's about breaking a covenant with G-d. That is quite a weighty matter to us. And it should be.

I appreciate your taking an even-handed approach to my assertions. You defend your position effectively.

Right back atcha.

USU "It's so much easier when they aren't all zoobified or lapsed zoobies" 78

[Jarrod]

I would also like to add another one of my little thoughts on this issue.  If Joseph was a false prophet, and he did lie about Plural marriage, then the question is WHY?

I submit the Law of Unintended Consequences. This is my opinion, but it appears to me that Joseph began sleeping around and told lies to cover his misdeeds. It also appears to me that his increasing inability to control his libido caused a great deal of trouble for his followers, who justifiably began to question his authenticity. This required him to tell even bigger lies to cover his misdeeds, which ultimately absolved him and ended all argument by squaring himself in the sight of God.

Having claimed divine commandment as the motivation for his promiscuity, he got the absolution he desired. But this had the unintended side effect of motivating the same behavior in everyone else. In pronouncing plural marriage as a commandment, Joseph provided the impetus for every devoted follower to join in the practice.

When I read Section 132, it strikes me that we can read it a few different ways. For example, the commandment seems to imply that Joseph is justified, and there is a lot of talk about how someone will be destroyed if they do not heed God's commandment. All of this aligns well with Joseph trying to justify himself. But we can also interpret Section 132 as a commandment to ALL devoted members of the church. The commandment is not terribly explicit in this regard, which fosters my suspicion that Joseph originally intended it as a justification for himself only. Of course, once other men questioned their need to follow the practice, the "revelation" easily justified them as well. So, why not? Having every member adopt the practice of plural marriage is perhaps an even better justification, because there would be few, if any, dissenters. They would all practice it together, so who would be left to question?

[Platypus Man]

QUOTE (Platypus Man @ Apr 13 2005, 01:20 PM)

I would also like to add another one of my little thoughts on this issue.  If Joseph was a false prophet, and he did lie about Plural marriage, then the question is WHY? 

I submit the Law of Unintended Consequences. This is my opinion, but it appears to me that Joseph began sleeping around and told lies to cover his misdeeds. It also appears to me that his increasing inability to control his libido caused a great deal of trouble for his followers, who justifiably began to question his authenticity. This required him to tell even bigger lies to cover his misdeeds, which ultimately absolved him and ended all argument by squaring himself in the sight of God.

Having claimed divine commandment as the motivation for his promiscuity, he got the absolution he desired. But this had the unintended side effect of motivating the same behavior in everyone else. In pronouncing plural marriage as a commandment, Joseph provided the impetus for every devoted follower to join in the practice.

When I read Section 132, it strikes me that we can read it a few different ways. For example, the commandment seems to imply that Joseph is justified, and there is a lot of talk about how someone will be destroyed if they do not heed God's commandment. All of this aligns well with Joseph trying to justify himself. But we can also interpret Section 132 as a commandment to ALL devoted members of the church. The commandment is not terribly explicit in this regard, which fosters my suspicion that Joseph originally intended it as a justification for himself only. Of course, once other men questioned their need to follow the practice, the "revelation" easily justified them as well. So, why not? Having every member adopt the practice of plural marriage is perhaps an even better justification, because there would be few, if any, dissenters. They would all practice it together, so who would be left to question?

That's a lengthy conspiracy theory, though anything is possible, I think that would apply more closely to the back of an X-files DVD than in a history book.

I dont mean to be mean or disrespectful or anything. I apologize if you think I'm mocking you. I'm not. I just don't buy the conspiracy theory idea.

[Jarrod]

That's a lengthy conspiracy theory, though anything is possible, I think that would apply more closely to the back of an X-files DVD than in a history book.

I hear ya. Personally, it's a whole season of X-Files either way my belief swings. I mean, when you think about peep stones, the Jupiter Talisman, angels and hidden caves, and on and on. We're all in the X-Files boat!

I dont mean to be mean or disrespectful or anything.  I apologize if you think I'm mocking you.  I'm not.  I just don't buy the conspiracy theory idea.

No worries! Thanks for sharing your opinions!

[Zakuska]

The truth is OUT there Mulder!

[Scott Lloyd]

Another factoid.

[Platypus Man]

Yes those things do sound strange, especially when you hear about it from a source thats not all that kind to the LDS faith. If you want a clear understanding of them, try this site. You probably have been there before, but it make sense of a lot of the "weird" things. It has definately helped get a full perspective of those issues that "anti-mormons" bring to the table.

http://www.jefflindsay.com

[Kosh]

I don't believe that God literally appears to any prophet, other than in dreams or visions, and as Isaiah and President Hinckley stated, Prophets receive revelation from the small still voice. Since all revelation is subject to our own filters of personal beliefs, traditions and culture, it is possible to misinterpret revelation. It is not a perfect communication.

I think Joseph Smith was a man, subject to sin and error, just like all of us. He was handsome, according to some reports, and very charismatic and a smooth talker. He sounds like he was an Alpha male, and naturally was drawn to multiple sex partners. Polygamy is neither good nor bad. It isn't a sin, only the implimentation and execution may be, nor is it a commandment. Marriage is a temporal and cultural institution that may extend into the eternities. So, my best guess is that Joseph found himself in a puzzling situation of being attracted and drawn to other women while at the same time married to Emma.

Obviously, as a God loving man and prophet, he would not allow himself to be tempted into adultery; so, knowing that many of the Old Testiment prophets had many wives, he may have gone to the Lord in prayer and asked His permission. God, not really caring one way or the other (again, polygamy being a cultural practice and not a commandment) neither condoned or objected. Joseph may have misinterpreted this acceptance as complete approval and ultimately in his own mind it became a commandment and part of the Restored Gospel.

I personally think plural marriage was a mistake and driven more by hormons than revelation. It hurt and continues to hurt the Church. It has also given rise to oppressive and exploitive cults like Warren Jeffs' FLDS sect. It was a key factor in the death of Joseph and Hyrum Smith and subsequent persecution of the Saints; but that doesn't mean that Joseph was a fallen prophet.

The fact that God called an imperfect and flawed man such as Joseph is inspiring. God loves us despite our weakenesses and may call any one of us in our sinful state to do His will.

[Jarrod]

Yes those things do sound strange, especially when you hear about it from a source thats not all that kind to the LDS faith. If you want a clear understanding of them, try this site. You probably have been there before, but it make sense of a lot of the "weird" things. It has definately helped get a full perspective of those issues that "anti-mormons" bring to the table.

http://www.jefflindsay.com

Oh believe me, I've been there. The first place I heard this stuff was when I prepared for my Gospel Doctrine lessons. When the Official Church History seemed strange to me, I was sent to the likes of FARMS and Jeff Lindsay. It went downhill from there. I am admittedly too much of a skeptical scientist to be a devoted Mormon.

[Legend]

It's also the love involved. For a man to love more than 1 woman and have sex with her would be destructive to my spirit and has nothing to do with culture. I feel like some of the apologist here are not being honest with this issue as it relates to a woman's heart.

You completely sidestepped what Lori was trying to say!

Your post is religious fanaticism at it's finest.

[USU78]

Inherent within the phrase "seed unto me" is the idea that such seed would be righteous, faithful, committed followers of God, His covenant people, as it were.

The notion that the term "seed" here refers to any progeny whatsoever, regardless of whether or not they are faithful believers, is an inference that is not supported in the text of this passage.

I see echoes of the Olive Allegory in the "seed unto me" phrase.

And it came to pass

That they went forth whither the master of the vineyard

Had hid the natural branches of the tree.

And he said unto the servant,

[trim]

In one of the earlier posts Lori seemed to express some concern that she would have to practice polygamy in the world hereafter.

I heard the same kind of thing for years, but it seems to me that you would not be forced to do something that would bring misery to you. Something about the proper use of agency would seem to be in order.

I don't know of any authoritative statement suggesting that the highest order of the celestial kingdom is a club for polygamists and only for polygamists.

[Moksha]

If Joseph Smith and Brigham Young where fallen Prophets who are you to be their Judge?

I am not one to judge and it really doesn't matter whether they were fallen Prophets by their own lusts. The Church is on track and we have a living Prophet. Isn't that what really matters?

[Zakuska]

You got it.

[Jarrod]

I don't know of any authoritative statement suggesting that the highest order of the celestial kingdom is a club for polygamists and only for polygamists.

Section 132 has been taken by some, including my devout LDS wife, to mean exactly that.

[Zakuska]

It's also the love involved. For a man to love more than 1 woman and have sex with her would be destructive to my spirit and has nothing to do with culture. I feel like some of the apologist here are not being honest with this issue as it relates to a woman's heart.

You completely sidestepped what Lori was trying to say!

Your post is religious fanaticism at it's finest.

You bet Im a religious Zealot.

Matt 10

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man

[Dr. Shades]

These clueless members that apologists/ defenders of the faith refer to, are those who fill the very chapels today. They are our current missionary force as well.

Has spending time on these internet forums caused some individuals to forget what the rank and file believe and espouse as truth?

The debate and conversation and beliefs that are shared here by believing lds forum members are in no way typical of the beliefs of humble ward members. No, I don't have a study to back this assertion up.

You see, folks? It's not just me who's noticed this phenomenon.

[Brackite]

Hello There,

Prove there WAS any "sex" especially with any of the already married women?

Joseph taught the "spiritual" practice of plural marriage.

[leeuniverse]

I'm well aware of Compton's "statements". But having researched further into it, it find it not fully credible. And like I said, I don't find it impossible that Joseph may have had a sexual discression or two, but I find no credible evidence of it especially to the degree anti's like to spin it.

Especially in those times, the Rumor Mill and False Assumptions, was most certainly dominante, and not seemingly impossible, it would also apply to this kind of thing as well don't you think?