What year Did Adam come to earth?

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, telnetd said:

Gospel Principles says exalted beings will have "everything that our Heavenly Father 
and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge".

Are you interested in that too?

When I was a child, my agnostic father taught me that I would love being an adult with all its privileges and challenges. I believed him, because he was my father, and I figured he knew what he was talking about. I tried to picture it, but I couldn't really comprehend what it all entailed. I finally found that he was right.

In illustration of this in connection with eternity, when John wrote:

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (1 John 3:1-2)

...he was telling us that we can't imagine what we will be in the end, but we shall be like God. Paul echoes this as follows:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; (Romans 8:16,17)

As you see, we don't even need D&C 76 to tell us what we can be, if we are worthy.

The heir of a baron is a baron; the heir of a duke is a duke; the heir of a king is a king. So what is a joint-heir with Christ? As you quoted: "[E]verything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge". 

It's quite in line with both old and new scripture.

And just because I cannot really comprehend it now, so what? I couldn't comprehend what my father told me about being an adult, either.

Edited August 15 by Stargazer

[telnetd]

On 8/15/2024 at 6:35 PM, Stargazer said:

...he was telling us that we can't imagine what we will be in the end, but we shall be like God. Paul echoes this as follows:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; (Romans 8:16,17)

The church teaches the children of God in this passage are exalted beings.

[telnetd]

On 8/15/2024 at 1:15 PM, Calm said:

It is incomprehensible to me.

It's a longer way of saying "you will become a God".

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, telnetd said:

It's a longer way of saying "you will become a God".

No, becoming a God is incomprehensible to me.  I trust doing what God tells me to do to become one with him because I love him and trust he loves me.  I care about becoming closer to him.  If that means he helps me become a god, then so be it, but it isn’t a goal for me as I don’t know what it would be like, I can’t imagine it well enough.

[Stargazer]

42 minutes ago, telnetd said:

The church teaches the children of God in this passage are exalted beings.

Correct. I wasn't saying anything different.

ETA: And then it occurs to me that you might be interpreting that to mean "exalted beings who are not us." No, the church teaches that the children of God in this passage are those of us mortal beings whom raises as exalted beings. Unless you're talking about some other church.

Edited August 18 by Stargazer

[telnetd]

On 8/18/2024 at 1:43 PM, Stargazer said:

ETA: And then it occurs to me that you might be interpreting that to mean "exalted beings who are not us." No, the church teaches that the children of God in this passage are those of us mortal beings whom raises as exalted beings. Unless you're talking about some other church.

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And
if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we
suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, telnetd said:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And
if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we
suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Yes, exactly.

I'm unclear, though. Are you quoting this to contradict something you think I've said? 

[telnetd]

On 8/22/2024 at 12:09 PM, Stargazer said:

Yes, exactly.

I'm unclear, though. Are you quoting this to contradict something you think I've said? 

The church teaches joint-heirs are exalted beings.  So to rephrase, "if children,
then exalted beings". 

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, telnetd said:

The church teaches joint-heirs are exalted beings.  So to rephrase, "if children,
then exalted beings". 

So, no. That's what I meant.

[Mfbnew]

On 7/8/2024 at 2:30 PM, the narrator said:

Given the abundant and overwhelming evidence and reality of human evolution, how are you defining Adam and Eve? Or do you reject all of that evidence and go with the biblical narrative of Adam being formed out of clay and Eve being made from his rib (or maybe baculum)?

I am Mark Bukowski- I had personal computer problems that caused my to open a new avatar.  Just being honest and up-front.

After 1990 when major changes were made, BEFORE the beginning of the endowment itself, the narrator said something like "The account of the man and woman is strictly figurative"

That is my recollection , because of course I did not write it down word-for- word.   It would be interesting if we could find some kind of corroboration of that.

I personally see the story as an ancient fable, that carries with it and teaches us many many religious truths - including opposition in all things, as well as the implication that we are agents with choice which enables one is a separation of  spiritual death and physical death as two different modes of existence. We learn about the necessity for a Savior who is able to "undergo all things" so that we can know that he will be with us to be an example of how to "overcome all things".  He mentally provides an example of having the faith to know we need not fear whatever happens.  Virtually all the "truths"- seen as paradigms for our ideal behaviors are represented in the figure of Christ either symbolically or literally.

So for me, scientific paradigms have nothing to do with religious paradigms.   Science teaches us how things work, religion teaches us if things are good or bad for us, in living our lives.   A&E become models for interaction with God for Everyman (and of course Every Woman)

What tools enabled God's Intelligence to use the "techologies"available to "HIS" intelligence is his business- it is as if we are living thousands of years ago and someone pops out of a time machine with a television showing faces and voices out of apparently "no where"!

But we must understand these things using our level of knowledge.

Joseph told us that energy and matter are one "thing"- yet it took Einstein to develop E-mc2.

But I see absolutely no reason why God could NOT use something like what we call "evolution" to use natural principles to develop mankind.

In fact it seems to me to be a very efficient way to do it- start with protozoa- maybe harvested from an asteroid- or who knows-- and let them develop, without further interference UNTIL something goes wrong - the principle of opposition in all things. 

Just change whatever caused the unplanned event- by adjusting the climate-whatever- to "fix" it- and stop by again in a few thousand years!

But of course there was no "time" until we defined it- sort of- that project is still a mystery for us 

But The Universe knows because it is God's Intelligence, AKA The Light of Christ.   I trust it totally.   Words are the problem. Opposition in all things- requires Faith, not science. 

[Mfbnew]

On 7/8/2024 at 4:15 PM, JVW said:

No "missing link" has been found. The Bible says that God created all creatures after their "kind". I believe the Bible over the latest scientific conversations. My religion is not "the science". My religion is Christianity and I believe in God's holy word. Micro-evolution is easy to observe and has nothing to do with the argument that humans evolved from apes. Macro-evolution is impossible to observe and requires a lot of faith and speculation to believe in.

I believe that Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden roughly 6000 years ago, around the time when recorded human history began. I believe that the garden was on this Earth. I believe that the dates in the Bible are accurate. I don't know how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before the fall, and I don't know how many other humanoid species existed outside of the garden, but I do believe that no death occurred before the Fall and that the Great Flood literally happened.

I also believe that the Fall was necessary because God cannot create anything that is imperfect. He cannot create anything that dies or gets sick, but the consequence of the Fall cast the world out of God's presence and so corruption and death could occur and God's plan could move forward.

From what you said above, I assume that you believe that God is "Omnipotent"; I was just wondering how you justified your position on omnipotence, if indeed that is one of your beliefs, with the idea that "God cannot create anything that is imperfect".   How can he be both omnipotent and unable to create something imperfect?

Just interested in how that works for you.   

[JVW]

On 8/28/2024 at 12:09 PM, Mfbnew said:

From what you said above, I assume that you believe that God is "Omnipotent"; I was just wondering how you justified your position on omnipotence, if indeed that is one of your beliefs, with the idea that "God cannot create anything that is imperfect".   How can he be both omnipotent and unable to create something imperfect?

Just interested in how that works for you.   

I don't know how it works. It's like that dumb question "Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?" or the more playful version "Can God microwave a burrito to be so hot that He cannot eat it?"

I think the word omnipotent has varying definitions depending on who you talk to. I roughly define the word "power" as the "ability to communicate and control the flow of information" so all powerful would mean God is the best communicator with the ultimate control over information flow. If that is the case, a pure, eternal being only being able to create matter that is pure and eternal doesn't break the definition of omnipotent.

What do you think? Do you think God can create corruption and death?