Article Re Dan Reynolds

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Your argument is that more educated (learned), more developed (richer) countries see through the "lies" of the Church and that once less educated, less developed (poorer) countries have access to more information (learning) they will do the same... I think the verse I quoted fits perfectly.

Is the fact that Alma 30 has been my "Come, Follow Me" reading the last couple of days ironic or what?

Once again, you ascribe an argument to your intellectual opponent that he was not making. He was talking about access to information, not "more educated" and seeing through "lies."

[ttribe]

13 hours ago, smac97 said:

Being qualified as an expert witness is, in my view, a pretty good indicator of actual competence and expertise.

I've issued expert reports in well more than 100 litigation cases (both civil and criminal). I've testified as an expert under oath 68 times. And, yet, you seem hell bent on arguing with me every time I comment on financial transparency, auditing, and internal controls (all items in my area of expertise). I wonder why that is...

Edited July 18, 2024 by ttribe

[Analytics]

16 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I've issued expert reports in well more than 100 litigation cases (both civil and criminal). I've testified as an expert under oath 68 times. And, yet, you seem hell bent on arguing with me every time I comment on financial transparency, auditing, and internal controls (all items in my area of expertise). I wonder why that is...

+1,000,000

[Analytics]

35 minutes ago, JVW said:

I know you asked smac, but I'd like to take a stab at it if that's alright with you.

"Undue influence is typically perpetrated by a person who is trusted by the victim and is dependent on them for emotional and physical needs. Perpetrators of UI operate in shadow, enacting their manipulation behind closed doors where there are no witnesses. A person being unduly influenced may become withdrawn, depressive and passive... The effectiveness of cult tactics (e.g. love bombing) on young and healthy individuals illustrates that anyone, regardless of mental status, is a potential victim of UI under certain circumstances... Love bombing is an attempt to influence a person by demonstrations of attention and affection. It has been described as psychological manipulation in order to create a feeling of unity within a group against a society perceived as hostile."

My church preaches that one must become entirely reliant on Jesus Christ in order to experience true peace and joy. If you don't believe me I could spend an hour gathering 10 quotes from every canonized work, church president, and every apostle who's ever lived to prove my point. If one is dependent on the prophet for their emotional and physical needs then there is a problem. It's like how people were dependent on Fauci during covid for their emotional and physical needs. I do know people who have told me they depend on the prophet. So yes, I know people who act as if they are in a cult. I don't believe that the church doctrine encourages this behavior, but I do believe that some cultures do.

I don't see the "operate in shadow", "behind closed doors", "no witnesses" thing in my church. I also don't see the "withdrawn, depressive and passive" behavior in the average church member.

The reason I noticed the love bombing is because it surprised me. The description of love bombing perfectly fits every experience I've had attending non-denominational Christian churches. As far as my church goes, on my mission I'd try to find friends for investigators b/c going to my church is like learning a new language and it's nice to have a buddy. My mom, who is a lifelong member, complains about how nobody has reached out to her in 7 years at her ward in CA, and the rare occasions in which she attends nobody will take the initiative to meet her. So no love bombing there.

"impression management" (idk what this is). "Lying about facts and history": Different prophets have approached church history in different ways. Since the church I'm participating in is today's church, I will not be spending much time on the past. The discussion hasn't been "did the church used to be a cult and isn't anymore?" it's "is the church currently a cult?". The current prophet's attitude to church history is to get it all out there. There's been a lot of investment into publishing church history and acknowledging it under president Nelson's leadership. "assuring conformity to a teaching without question": I can kind of see this. I will not argue against someone who believes this to be the case. I personally don't conform without question, but I regard myself as somewhat rare in this area. I do see this clearly in some scientific fields like evolution, climate change, and big pharma. "safe and effective" slogans have been used for over a century, and "the science is settled" is a phrase I've heard a lot to assure conformity to a teaching without question. "betraying of confidences": no. "denying reality": I don't think so? "changes to blah blah blah": no.

I guess I'm going to stop at M. This is super fun to dive into, but it's very time consuming too and I need to do some work. If I get some time I'll check out "I" next and have some more fun learning about cult stuff. By the way, I agree with the 3-4 out of 10 on the cult scale various people have tossed out earlier in the thread. However, I don't think there's any organization or belief or science system that is a 0 on the scale. Everything can draw out cult-like behavior from the people that participate in it. I also think that anything under a 7 shouldn't be identified as a cult, because to get to a 7 or higher the leadership has to really try hard. So they know it's a cult and are doing it on purpose, there are no accidental 7+ cult organizations.

Great post; thanks. I might quibble with one or two of your points, but I’ll refrain. I appreciate you making a good-faith effort to address this.

[Stormin' Mormon]

37 minutes ago, JVW said:

By the way, I agree with the 3-4 out of 10 on the cult scale various people have tossed out earlier in the thread. However, I don't think there's any organization or belief or science system that is a 0 on the scale. Everything can draw out cult-like behavior from the people that participate in it. I also think that anything under a 7 shouldn't be identified as a cult, because to get to a 7 or higher the leadership has to really try hard. So they know it's a cult and are doing it on purpose, there are no accidental 7+ cult organizations.

Well said.  Every employer I've ever worked for would tick the dial a little bit, somewhere in the 1 to 3 point range.  Any effort an organization makes to build cohesion, team unity, or esprit de corps is going to trip over some of these cult-detection speed bumps.  An organization like the Church (or like ANY church, I'd guess) that puts a premium on unity, togetherness, or inclusion is going to score in the same 3 to 4 point range.  It's just baked into the cake.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JVW said:

By the way, I agree with the 3-4 out of 10 on the cult scale various people have tossed out earlier in the thread. However, I don't think there's any organization or belief or science system that is a 0 on the scale. Everything can draw out cult-like behavior from the people that participate in it. I also think that anything under a 7 shouldn't be identified as a cult, because to get to a 7 or higher the leadership has to really try hard. So they know it's a cult and are doing it on purpose, there are no accidental 7+ cult organizations.

I think this is an excellent observation.

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, Calm said:

If you think this board has ugly, more extreme critics, I am shocked.  I have heard more extreme insults about the church that they were tossing out for fun when I was in high school than on here.  There are a few extreme antimormons that show up here, but they only last as long as the mods aren’t here.

Reddit’s exmormon forum is soooo much nastier.

Thank you. I think many of us (not all) can be strident at times. But I find @smac97s characterization of critics here rather extreme.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Your argument is that more educated (learned), more developed (richer) countries see through the "lies" of the Church and that once less educated, less developed (poorer) countries have access to more information (learning) they will do the same... I think the verse I quoted fits perfectly.

Is the fact that Alma 30 has been my "Come, Follow Me" reading the last couple of days ironic or what?

Ok.  Frankly the passage you cited is one of many in so called scripture to marginalize critical thinking and rational analysis of religion.  And your comment above shows you fall right into its trap.  Essentially it is ok to be smart or wealthy, but don't use your intellect to critique the faith based claims of a religion.  And why not?  Well often such scrutiny will cause loss of faith. So let's us thought stopping "scripture" passages to keep people in the faith.

[Teancum]

3 hours ago, Analytics said:

Another possibility of how to evaluate whether a group is exercising undue influence on its group is the “MIND” model that Dr. Cathleen Mann developed:

 

 M:  Manipulation.  These are techniques used by cults to ensure compliance by using undue influence.  The definition of undue influence has been recognized in common law for 500 years and is a legal definition, not a psychological one.  Manipulation can consist of a variety of factors including those put forth by Cialdini (1984 ).   Manipulation also involves several other elements such as: impression management; lying about facts and history; assuring conformity to a teaching without question (Lifton, 1961); betraying of confidences; denying reality; and changes to diet, sleeping patterns, and overactivity (Schein, 1961).  Hypnosis or other artificial techniques are not necessary when ordinary techniques such as those mentioned above are more than adequate.  The confirmation of manipulation occurs when ordinary cult members are successful in activity to convert others (Kent, 2001).

I:  Indoctrination.  This is a process of deliberate changes to a person’s environment without consent, knowledge, or awareness (Zablocki, 2001).  Indoctrination does not include personality change, only attitudinal and behavior change.  The changes are not permanent and dissipate when the process of indoctrination ceases (Lifton, 1961; Gallanter,1999). There is no research support for “snapping,” “precult/postcult identities,” or “sudden personality changes.” Personality is a fixed, permanent variable; only behavior changes.  Indoctrination begins with recruitment, binding an individual to the group through ritual and secrets, creating a sense of specialness, and replicating family bonds (Lifton, 1961; Satir, 1964), perverting social controls such as innate prosocial attitudes such as respect for authority and fear of negative consequences, among others (Bowbly, 1998; Shermer, 1997; Kent, 2005).

N: Negation.  A process of devaluing the individual and their past through sustained criticism often labeled as feedback or disengagement.  All successful cults downplay the ego and consider it the ultimate enemy (Langone, 1986). Other forms of negation include triangulation (Satir, 1964), the silent treatment, lack of or inconsistent reinforcement, rejection, questioning of motives, etc.  Any cult failures are the result of improper group dynamics (Festinger, 1956; Kent, 2001; Ofshe, 1992).

😧 Deception.  Lack of informed consent (Routh, 1994). Successful cults use deception in a wide variety of forms.  Without deception, no one would affiliate or stay. Termed the true hallmark of a cult, deception prevents critical thinking and good decision making (Layton, 1998). Deception is not prevented by intelligence or rational thought, but is maintained by emotions, fear, and isolation. It is a temporary betrayal of self (Lifton, 1993) without awareness of the reasons driving it.  Deception occurs in a pyramid fashion where those above know more than those below, and leaders at the top restrict knowledge through the use of loyalty tests to climb higher in the pyramid. Deception is also detailed in the article by Langone, where he shows with great clarity, the interplay of the three D’s: deception, dependence, and dread. This is more accurate than the sensationalized term, “phobia indoctrination,” which does not capture the process of leaving a cult.

It is encouraged to teach,  and link to the MIND model everywhere, just give proper citations to Dr. Cathleen Mann and if possible a link to me at cultscults.com  If you can’t do both then give credits to Dr. Mann for her research.

I’d be curious about whether @smac97 thinks his religion fairs any better under the MIND model than the BITE model.

As you have noted, Mormonism likely fair the same under the MIND model as it does under the BITE model. The MIND model does not seem all that different to me.

[ZealouslyStriving]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Ok.  Frankly the passage you cited is one of many in so called scripture to marginalize critical thinking and rational analysis of religion.  And your comment above shows you fall right into its trap.  Essentially it is ok to be smart or wealthy, but don't use your intellect to critique the faith based claims of a religion.  And why not?  Well often such scrutiny will cause loss of faith. So let's us thought stopping "scripture" passages to keep people in the faith.

"Scrutiny without humility lead to apostasy."©

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

But as we know by the very successful, faithful Latter-day Saints throughout the world- just because one has acquired much learning, and wealth, that doesn't mean they will walk away- which was the argument being made- that only ignorant people accept the claims of the Restoration.

Unmm no. I said that when people are more educated, AND HAVE ACCESS TO INFORMATION that previously was hard to get, the rate of the church slows, and the rate of disaffected members increase.  This is a fact born out by the statistics.  I did not say that only ignorant people accept Mormonism.  There are smart people that believe Mormonism. A whole bunch. There are smart people that believe other religious faiths you think are false. So what?  But it is clear that the access to information about the church that used to be harder to obtain, and thus investigators had to rely mostly on the limited info missionaries teach and members did not have easy access to that information either. 

I live where I served my mission. It is in the Northeast of the USA. My companions and I brought in 50 people over two years (of which about 20% stayed active).  Our mission used to convert about 800 people per year. This was 1979 to 1981.  This same mission is now dissolved and absorbed into a much larger geographic mission. The mission converts maybe 150 in a good year.  In my ward, that I was the bishop of from January 2003 to September 2008 had very few baptisms.  A handful per year.  No families. Usually a single person.  Often very poor and uneducated.  And rarely if ever a solid family unit. And that was typical of our stake.  The numbers in our wards and stake have shrunk. The leaders have consolidated units and redrawn boundaries. Our stake split in 1985.  And the two stakes have had 0 net growth.  Now part of that is a poor economy.  We used to have a lot a members move to our area that worked for Kodak or Xerox.  But both those companies are a shell of what they used to be. All the same, dismal convert rates.  And worse retention. Maybe 10% retention.   This seems the norm in most the USA and then there is Europe.  What explanation do you have other than when people have access to all the info about the church they are much less likely to join?

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

I've issued expert reports in well more than 100 litigation cases (both civil and criminal). I've testified as an expert under oath 68 times. And, yet, you seem hell bent on arguing with me every time I comment on financial transparency, auditing, and internal controls (all items in my area of expertise). I wonder why that is...

Great point!!!!!!!!  I guess expert witness testimony is only important when it helps @smac97score points.

[Teancum]

26 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

"Scrutiny without humility lead to apostasy."©

You know how about you just stop it.  If you think I was happy about where my studies, question, defense of Mormonism and yes even prayers, led me you are sorely mistaken. I was an all in member I am sure as much as you or anyone on this board. You comments imply things about me which just are not true.  They are personal attacks on me and my personal integrity. So how about you discuss the issues or just STFU.

[JVW]

4 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Unmm no. I said that when people are more educated, AND HAVE ACCESS TO INFORMATION that previously was hard to get, the rate of the church slows, and the rate of disaffected members increase.  This is a fact born out by the statistics.  I did not say that only ignorant people accept Mormonism.  There are smart people that believe Mormonism. A whole bunch. There are smart people that believe other religious faiths you think are false. So what?  But it is clear that the access to information about the church that used to be harder to obtain, and thus investigators had to rely mostly on the limited info missionaries teach and members did not have easy access to that information either. 

I live where I served my mission. It is in the Northeast of the USA. My companions and I brought in 50 people over two years (of which about 20% stayed active).  Our mission used to convert about 800 people per year. This was 1979 to 1981.  This same mission is now dissolved and absorbed into a much larger geographic mission. The mission converts maybe 150 in a good year.  In my ward, that I was the bishop of from January 2003 to September 2008 had very few baptisms.  A handful per year.  No families. Usually a single person.  Often very poor and uneducated.  And rarely if ever a solid family unit. And that was typical of our stake.  The numbers in our wards and stake have shrunk. The leaders have consolidated units and redrawn boundaries. Our stake split in 1985.  And the two stakes have had 0 net growth.  Now part of that is a poor economy.  We used to have a lot a members move to our area that worked for Kodak or Xerox.  But both those companies are a shell of what they used to be. All the same, dismal convert rates.  And worse retention. Maybe 10% retention.   This seems the norm in most the USA and then there is Europe.  What explanation do you have other than when people have access to all the info about the church they are much less likely to join?

I agree with you. I served in Dallas TX and baptisms were rare. I don't think conversion is an intelligence issue, or a knowledge issue. I think it's a pride issue. Pride levels are often associated with economic status, and economic status is often associated with education level (or information, intelligence, or expertise level). The western world is incredibly vain, materialistic, and proud. It's just the way our culture is. This doesn't just have an impact on conversion rates, it's having an impact on religiosity, traditions, and retention in general, regardless of the religion or its source. Regardless of whether one is Hindu, Bhuddist, Christian, or LDS the amount of people seeking to be one with the One is vanishingly low. There is less of a need or a desire for companionship with heaven when one feels capable of solving all of their own problems or using their own "worldly" clergy to help them (therapy, support groups, forums, YT videos from experts, etc.).

On my mission (in which I served in many religiously diverse neighborhoods) I would ask this question any chance I could, "Do you read your [insert dominant religious text here] every day?" I'd say 1-5% of people I asked that question to responded in the affirmative. Now this is anecdotal, but every person who answered "yes" were nice to the missionaries, the rest were awful to us. I have found that in my own church (LDS) that most members I speak with are not thoughtful or intentional about their worship and are no different from the 95% of other faiths that I met on my mission. Fundamentally, that is why people are falling away or resisting conversion, they just don't care about spiritual development, it has nothing to do with how smart or educated they are. But if we lived in a society where we don't know where our next meal is coming from, all of a sudden thinking about death becomes top of mind, and it's heartbreaking and humbling to think about and naturally draws one into exploring the unknown via religious text.

[ZealouslyStriving]

10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

What explanation do you have other than when people have access to all the info about the church they are much less likely to join?

A culture flying off the cliff of morality.

A culture that wants to make up it's own rules and be answerable to no one.

A culture that is too "wise" to accept ancient "myths" about a God or gods.

A culture in which money/possessions are their god/s.

A culture too preoccupied with entertainment to waste time going to a religious service.

 

[Teancum]

5 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

A culture flying off the cliff of morality.

A culture that wants to make up it's own rules and be answerable to no one.

A culture that is too "wise" to accept ancient "myths" about a God or gods.

A culture in which money/possessions are their god/s.

A culture too preoccupied with entertainment to waste time going to a religious service.

 

Maybe. Or a culture smart enough to see through the myths of made up religion.

[ZealouslyStriving]

6 minutes ago, Teancum said:

You know how about you just stop it.  If you think I was happy about where my studies, question, defense of Mormonism and yes even prayers, led me you are sorely mistaken. I was an all in member I am sure as much as you or anyone on this board. You comments imply things about me which just are not true.  They are personal attacks on me and my personal integrity. So how about you discuss the issues or just STFU.

I'm sorry if your journey was hard, but you seemed to have stopped studying, questioning, and praying. You gave up the fight instead of continuing to dig. You seem to have lost the desire to learn if maybe you are wrong NOW. You started fighting the Restored Gospel when you decided you had the answer. Your posts now read exactly like verses out of the Book of Mormon where people are fighting against Christ. You meet every new apologetic point with automatic dismissal. 

Where did your original desire to learn and be corrected go?

You may think I dislike you or judge you- no I'm just incredibly saddened for you.

[ttribe]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

A culture flying off the cliff of morality.

A culture that wants to make up it's own rules and be answerable to no one.

A culture that is too "wise" to accept ancient "myths" about a God or gods.

A culture in which money/possessions are their god/s.

A culture too preoccupied with entertainment to waste time going to a religious service.

 

Perhaps, in a moment of clarity, you might admit it is possible to review all available valid evidence and reach a conclusion that is different than yours? That might go a long way toward reducing (or eliminating) your habit of building strawmen out of your assumptions about other people's thoughts, feelings, and motivations.

[ZealouslyStriving]

Just now, ttribe said:

Perhaps, in a moment of clarity, you might admit it is possible to review all available valid evidence and reach a conclusion that is different than yours? That might go a long way toward reducing (or eliminating) your habit of building strawmen out of your assumptions about other people's thoughts, feelings, and motivations.

If one reviews all (currently) available evidence from a purely intellectual position... Sure.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, JVW said:

But if we lived in a society where we don't know where our next meal is coming from, all of a sudden thinking about death becomes top of mind, and it's heartbreaking and humbling to think about and naturally draws one into exploring the unknown via religious text.

Actually it tends to make you desperate to acquire food.

[ttribe]

17 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

If one reviews all (currently) available evidence from a purely intellectual position... Sure.

[sigh] No. Again, you don't know what other people's experiences are with spiritual matters. You are applying your experiences to other people and that's not fair to them, in the least.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

A culture flying off the cliff of morality.

With the Christians leading the way!

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

A culture that wants to make up it's own rules and be answerable to no one.

Projection.

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

A culture that is too "wise" to accept ancient "myths" about a God or gods.

A post-truth society is not above mythmaking. Some of them just don’t like the same myths you do.

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

A culture in which money/possessions are their god/s.

In the sense that money can often save you from calamity? Yeah.

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

A culture too preoccupied with entertainment to waste time going to a religious service.

In the Middle Ages sermons were popular entertainment. To the extent that books of sermons were printed. We should instead ask why that shifted. Too often it seems like LDS church culture makes “enduring boredom” into some kind of godly virtue. If that is the case and developing the ability to endure boredom is good preparation for the next life it does make one wonder if heaven might be overhyped a little bit.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'm sorry if your journey was hard, but you seemed to have stopped studying, questioning, and praying. You gave up the fight instead of continuing to dig. You seem to have lost the desire to learn if maybe you are wrong NOW. You started fighting the Restored Gospel when you decided you had the answer. Your posts now read exactly like verses out of the Book of Mormon where people are fighting against Christ. You meet every new apologetic point with automatic dismissal. 

Where did your original desire to learn and be corrected go?

You may think I dislike you or judge you- no I'm just incredibly saddened for you.

How delightfully condescending.

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'm sorry if your journey was hard, but you seemed to have stopped studying, questioning, and praying. You gave up the fight instead of continuing to dig.

Wrong. It was a ten year journey.  There came a point where it became clear to me the church's claims were false and Joseph Smith a fraud. I did not want it to be that way.  It was not giving up the fight. It was accepting reality.

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

You seem to have lost the desire to learn if maybe you are wrong NOW.

Dude you don't know me, know my heart nor what I am doing in my seeking for truth. So stop making it personal.  Maybe YOU ARE WRONG.  Have you considered that? Would you want to know?

 

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

You started fighting the Restored Gospel when you decided you had the answer.

Oh good lord. This is mostly the only place I talk about my issues with the church. That and a few friends and family.  I didn't start a podcast like others and I don't blog against the church.

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Your posts now read exactly like verses out of the Book of Mormon where people are fighting against Christ. You meet every new apologetic point with automatic dismissal. 

That is because I have found the apologetic to be poor defenses.  

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Where did your original desire to learn and be corrected go?

If I say what you are acting like now I could be banned from the board.

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

You may think I dislike you or judge you- no I'm just incredibly saddened for you.

I don't care if you like me or not. You just seem to be deeply disturbed by anyone who concluded something  about the church different than you have. And you make personal remarks about them.  Don't be sad for me. I an quite happy. I could say I am sad for you wasting your life believing in a patently false religion, wasting your time and money and attention. But I don't think that.  If you are happy terrific.

[ZealouslyStriving]

I have let myself get too contentious. I'll back off.

I'm actually quite pleasant in person. Guess we all have a little of the internet warrior in us.

🪖

Edited July 18, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving