Meaning of the Second Death

[mburgess1982]

In preparing my School lesson for this sunday in come follow me Alma 13-16 I was reading Alma 13:30 which reads "30 And may the Lord grant unto you repentance, that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell, that ye may not suffer the second death"

It got me thinking about the second death and what it really means. 

On the LDS.org website spiritual death gives this definition: 

"Spiritual death is separation from God. The scriptures teach of two sources of spiritual death. The first source is the Fall, and the second is our own disobedience. Spiritual death can be overcome through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to His gospel.

The Book of Mormon prophet Samuel taught, “All mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.”¹ During our life on the earth, we are separated from God’s presence. Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems everyone from this spiritual death. Samuel testified that the Savior’s Resurrection “redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death. … Behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.”² The prophet Lehi taught that because of the Atonement, “all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him.”³

Further spiritual death comes as a result of our own disobedience. Our sins make us unclean and unable to dwell in the presence of God.⁴ Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ offers redemption from this spiritual death, but only when we exercise faith in Him, repent of our sins, and obey the principles and ordinances of the gospel.⁵"

I then read D&C 76: 32,37-39 which says this: 

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

 

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

So from my understanding it seems like anybody who doesn't repent will partake or taste of the second death, but ONLY those who are the sons of perdition will ultimately not be redeemed from it, do I have this understanding correct? The Book of Mormon prophets aren't specific to this fact and make it seem like anybody who doesn't repent will become a son of perdition and be thrust down to hell for eternity which the D&C clarifies and makes clear this is ONLY for the sons of perdition

Thoughts?

 

 

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, mburgess1982 said:

So from my understanding it seems like anybody who doesn't repent will partake or taste of the second death, but ONLY those who are the sons of perdition will ultimately not be redeemed from it, do I have this understanding correct? The Book of Mormon prophets aren't specific to this fact and make it seem like anybody who doesn't repent will become a son of perdition and be thrust down to hell for eternity which the D&C clarifies and makes clear this is ONLY for the sons of perdition

I agree with your understanding of this. 

Of the three degrees of glory, the Telestial is the one closest to the second death, in that one is separated from the Father and the Son, but not the Holy Spirit. 

[teddyaware]

7 hours ago, mburgess1982 said:

In preparing my School lesson for this sunday in come follow me Alma 13-16 I was reading Alma 13:30 which reads "30 And may the Lord grant unto you repentance, that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell, that ye may not suffer the second death"

It got me thinking about the second death and what it really means. 

On the LDS.org website spiritual death gives this definition: 

"Spiritual death is separation from God. The scriptures teach of two sources of spiritual death. The first source is the Fall, and the second is our own disobedience. Spiritual death can be overcome through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to His gospel.

The Book of Mormon prophet Samuel taught, “All mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.”¹ During our life on the earth, we are separated from God’s presence. Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems everyone from this spiritual death. Samuel testified that the Savior’s Resurrection “redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death. … Behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.”² The prophet Lehi taught that because of the Atonement, “all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him.”³

Further spiritual death comes as a result of our own disobedience. Our sins make us unclean and unable to dwell in the presence of God.⁴ Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ offers redemption from this spiritual death, but only when we exercise faith in Him, repent of our sins, and obey the principles and ordinances of the gospel.⁵"

I then read D&C 76: 32,37-39 which says this: 

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

 

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

So from my understanding it seems like anybody who doesn't repent will partake or taste of the second death, but ONLY those who are the sons of perdition will ultimately not be redeemed from it, do I have this understanding correct? The Book of Mormon prophets aren't specific to this fact and make it seem like anybody who doesn't repent will become a son of perdition and be thrust down to hell for eternity which the D&C clarifies and makes clear this is ONLY for the sons of perdition

Thoughts?

 

 

A careful reading of Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 138 will reveal to the perceptive reader that one of the main reasons why some of the Father’s children are consigned to become sons of perdition is because they refuse to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and utterly refuse to repent of their sins. Eventually, after suffering the wrath of the justice of God in the spirit prison, even the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory will be required to willingly accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, and validate that acceptance by bowing in humble reverence before the all-seeing eye of God the Father and confess unto him in sincerity that Jesus is the Christ.

The reason why the inheritors of the telestial glory are worthy enough to enjoy the ministry of angels, ministering visitations by messengers from the terrestrial kingdom, and communion with the Holy Ghost, is because they will have availed themselves of the mercy of God by coming unto Christ and repenting of their sins before the final judgement.

The Book of Mormon is verily true when it repeatedly testifies that no man can be saved in his sins, and that the one and only way anyone can obtain salvation and inherit a place in one of the God the Father’s many mansions of post-resurrection glory is to come unto Christ in faith and repent of their sins. Doctrine and Covenants 76 makes it abundantly clear that all but the sons of perdition will eventually receive forgiveness and redemption from the fallen state through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. The plan of salvation as presented in the Book of Mormon and the plan of salvation presented in the Doctrine and Covenants are in accord.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his oww works, his own dominion , in the mansions which are prepared; (Doctrine and Covenants 76).

and…

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2).

 

Edited June 26, 2024 by teddyaware

[CV75]

7 hours ago, mburgess1982 said:

In preparing my School lesson for this sunday in come follow me Alma 13-16 I was reading Alma 13:30 which reads "30 And may the Lord grant unto you repentance, that ye may not bring down his wrath upon you, that ye may not be bound down by the chains of hell, that ye may not suffer the second death"

It got me thinking about the second death and what it really means. 

On the LDS.org website spiritual death gives this definition: 

"Spiritual death is separation from God. The scriptures teach of two sources of spiritual death. The first source is the Fall, and the second is our own disobedience. Spiritual death can be overcome through the Atonement of Jesus Christ and by obedience to His gospel.

The Book of Mormon prophet Samuel taught, “All mankind, by the fall of Adam being cut off from the presence of the Lord, are considered as dead, both as to things temporal and to things spiritual.”¹ During our life on the earth, we are separated from God’s presence. Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ redeems everyone from this spiritual death. Samuel testified that the Savior’s Resurrection “redeemeth all mankind from the first death—that spiritual death. … Behold, the resurrection of Christ redeemeth mankind, yea, even all mankind, and bringeth them back into the presence of the Lord.”² The prophet Lehi taught that because of the Atonement, “all men come unto God; wherefore, they stand in the presence of him, to be judged of him according to the truth and holiness which is in him.”³

Further spiritual death comes as a result of our own disobedience. Our sins make us unclean and unable to dwell in the presence of God.⁴ Through the Atonement, Jesus Christ offers redemption from this spiritual death, but only when we exercise faith in Him, repent of our sins, and obey the principles and ordinances of the gospel.⁵"

I then read D&C 76: 32,37-39 which says this: 

32 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

 

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

So from my understanding it seems like anybody who doesn't repent will partake or taste of the second death, but ONLY those who are the sons of perdition will ultimately not be redeemed from it, do I have this understanding correct? The Book of Mormon prophets aren't specific to this fact and make it seem like anybody who doesn't repent will become a son of perdition and be thrust down to hell for eternity which the D&C clarifies and makes clear this is ONLY for the sons of perdition

Thoughts?

 

 

The terms "first death" and "second death" are used differently by different writers. 1st death usually refers to the physical death, but in mortality is includes the spiritual separation from God until we are spiritually reborn through Christ. His resurrection brings us back into the presence of God to be judged, overcoming both physical and spiritual death, after which the 2nd death is the spiritual separation from God suffered by the unrepentant.

We learn from D&C that there are degrees of immortal glory; Perdition would be the absolute absence of glory. What that entails is anyone's guess at this point. 

Edited June 26, 2024 by CV75

[Calm]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

one of the main reasons why some of the Father’s children are consigned to become sons of perdition is because they refuse to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and utterly refuse to repent of their sins.

That is not the only qualification though.

[CV75]

Other qualifications described here:

Sons of Perdition

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/sons-of-perdition?lang=eng

[CV75]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

A careful reading of Doctrine and Covenants 76 and 138 will reveal to the perceptive reader that one of the main reasons why some of the Father’s children are consigned to become sons of perdition is because they refuse to accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and utterly refuse to repent of their sins. Eventually, after suffering the wrath of the justice of God in the spirit prison, even the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory will be required to willingly accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, and validate that acceptance by bowing in humble reverence before the all-seeing eye of God the Father and confess unto him in sincerity that Jesus is the Christ.

The reason why the inheritors of the telestial glory are worthy enough to enjoy the ministry of angels, ministering visitations by messengers from the terrestrial kingdom, and communion with the Holy Ghost, is because they will have availed themselves of the mercy of God by coming unto Christ and repenting of their sins before the final judgement.

The Book of Mormon is verily true when it repeatedly testifies that no man can be saved in his sins, and that the one and only way anyone can obtain salvation and inherit a place in one of the God the Father’s many mansions of post-resurrection glory is to come unto Christ in faith and repent of their sins. Doctrine and Covenants 76 makes it abundantly clear that all but the sons of perdition will eventually receive forgiveness and redemption from the fallen state through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. The plan of salvation as presented in the Book of Mormon and the plan of salvation presented in the Doctrine and Covenants are in accord.

109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

110 And heard the voice of the Lord saying: These all shall bow the knee, and every tongue shall confess to him who sits upon the throne forever and ever;

111 For they shall be judged according to their works, and every man shall receive according to his oww works, his own dominion , in the mansions which are prepared; (Doctrine and Covenants 76).

and…

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Philippians 2).

 

How is it you envision that people "come unto Christ in faith and repent of their sins" before the resurrection and yet not end up in the celestial kingdom?

[Tgwctbg]

D&C 63:17 makes it clear that the unrepentant, the unbelieving, liars, sorcerers, and whoremongers will suffer the second death, which means to be cut off from ALL things which are spiritual (including the Holy Ghost), from the things pertaining to righteousness.  Your instinct and understanding about the Book of Mormon is spot on in that repentance is the only condition by which the plan of redemption can redeem man from the spiritual death caused by our own disobedience. 

Redemption from the spiritual death caused by the fall of Adam is universal, and unconditional, but repentance is necessary to be reclaimed from the second spiritual death.  

Alma 42:12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

 Now some speculate, errantly, that those who inherit the telestial kingdom will eventually accept Jesus, repent, and accept the gospel.  This error is often perpetuated, even in church manuals, because of the teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith in Doctrines of Salvation.  
 

"The Lord has described those who will inherit the telestial kingdom.

• “Those who enter into the telestial kingdom, where their glories differ as do the stars of heaven in their magnitude, and who are innumerable as the sands of the seashore, are the ungodly, the filthy who suffer the wrath of God on the earth, who are thrust down to hell where they will be required to pay the uttermost farthing before their redemption comes. These are they who receive not the gospel of Christ and consequently could not deny the Holy Spirit while living on the earth.

  “They have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:22)."
  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/33-kingdoms-of-glory-and-perdition?lang=eng
  
  This is clearly an error, because if they rejected the gospel and the testimony of Jesus in mortality, and accepted it "afterwards", they would be heirs of the terrestrial kingdom (D&C 76:74).  Thus, out of necessity, and because of D&C 76:82, those who never accept the gospel or receive a testimony of Jesus are heirs of the telestial kingdom.  They never repent, which is why the Guide to the Scriptures correctly states the doctrine, where Joseph Fielding Smith didn't.  
  
  "Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101)."
  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/hell?lang=eng
  
  Your instinct is correct, because the Book of Mormon does say that those who do not repent will suffer the second death.  They will have had the opportunity to have heard the gospel of Christ at least once, by the end of the millennium, and will have rebelled against the truth.  They will have chosen evil, rather than chosen liberty and life, and their choice of captivity and death must be honored because of agency.  If it isn't, then does man really have agency to choose captivity and death?  
  
  Some will point to D&C 76:110 and suggest that they will bend the knee on the day of judgment and repent so that they can be an heir of the telestial kingdom, but if they waited that long, they will have procrastinated the day of their repentance and will find themselves sealed to the devil as their final state (Alma 34:30-35). 
  
  Alma 34:34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
  
  The same evil and unclean spirit that possessed their mortal bodies will have the power to possess their resurrected body in that eternal world.  So what is it that they will confess when confronted with their continued unrepentance that prevented them from attaining the terrestrial kingdom?  They will have to confess that because they lived without God in the world, that the judgment of eternal punishment is just upon them.  
  
  Mosiah 27:31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.
  
  They cannot remain unrepentant until their evil spirit is restored to their body in the resurrection, and then be granted entrance into the kingdom of God, not without making the kingdom of God filthy also.  Wickedness never was happiness, and something that was carnal and devilish will remain spiritually dead (second death), and won't be made alive spiritually so that they can enjoy the presence and companionship with the Holy Ghost in a kingdom so glorious that it surpasses all understanding.  No, you cannot reject Jesus and escape the second death, and the Book of Mormon makes that very clear.  It makes it so clear that were man to be reclaimed from the spiritual death brought on by their own disobedience without meeting the condition of repentance, then mercy would rob justice, and the god who taught such a thing would cease to be god.  

[teddyaware]

On 6/26/2024 at 6:25 PM, Calm said:

That is not the only qualification though.

That’s why I said, “one of the main reasons…” 

[teddyaware]

On 6/26/2024 at 8:01 PM, CV75 said:

How is it you envision that people "come unto Christ in faith and repent of their sins" before the resurrection and yet not end up in the celestial kingdom?

Doctrine and Covenants 76 provides the answer to your question: Those souls who inherit the terrestrial kingdom of glory are those who have indeed accepted Christ as their Savior, but, as it turns out, they’re not valiant in the testimony of Jesus, hence they receive not the fullness of heavenly reward. Meanwhile the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory are those who at first refuse to come unto Christ, therefore it’s only after they’ve been thrust down to hell where they experience intense spiritual suffering that their rebellious spirits are finally subdued to the point where they’re finally able exercise authentic faith in Christ unto repentance and a remission of sins. The reason why three degrees of glory exist is due to the fact that there are varying degrees of valiancy among all the saved who have the testimony of Jesus..

Edited yesterday at 04:44 AM by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, Tgwctbg said:

D&C 63:17 makes it clear that the unrepentant, the unbelieving, liars, sorcerers, and whoremongers will suffer the second death, which means to be cut off from ALL things which are spiritual (including the Holy Ghost), from the things pertaining to righteousness.  Your instinct and understanding about the Book of Mormon is spot on in that repentance is the only condition by which the plan of redemption can redeem man from the spiritual death caused by our own disobedience. 

Redemption from the spiritual death caused by the fall of Adam is universal, and unconditional, but repentance is necessary to be reclaimed from the second spiritual death.  

Alma 42:12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience;

13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God.

 Now some speculate, errantly, that those who inherit the telestial kingdom will eventually accept Jesus, repent, and accept the gospel.  This error is often perpetuated, even in church manuals, because of the teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith in Doctrines of Salvation.  
 

"The Lord has described those who will inherit the telestial kingdom.

• “Those who enter into the telestial kingdom, where their glories differ as do the stars of heaven in their magnitude, and who are innumerable as the sands of the seashore, are the ungodly, the filthy who suffer the wrath of God on the earth, who are thrust down to hell where they will be required to pay the uttermost farthing before their redemption comes. These are they who receive not the gospel of Christ and consequently could not deny the Holy Spirit while living on the earth.

  “They have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:22)."
  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/33-kingdoms-of-glory-and-perdition?lang=eng
  
  This is clearly an error, because if they rejected the gospel and the testimony of Jesus in mortality, and accepted it "afterwards", they would be heirs of the terrestrial kingdom (D&C 76:74).  Thus, out of necessity, and because of D&C 76:82, those who never accept the gospel or receive a testimony of Jesus are heirs of the telestial kingdom.  They never repent, which is why the Guide to the Scriptures correctly states the doctrine, where Joseph Fielding Smith didn't.  
  
  "Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101)."
  https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/hell?lang=eng
  
  Your instinct is correct, because the Book of Mormon does say that those who do not repent will suffer the second death.  They will have had the opportunity to have heard the gospel of Christ at least once, by the end of the millennium, and will have rebelled against the truth.  They will have chosen evil, rather than chosen liberty and life, and their choice of captivity and death must be honored because of agency.  If it isn't, then does man really have agency to choose captivity and death?  
  
  Some will point to D&C 76:110 and suggest that they will bend the knee on the day of judgment and repent so that they can be an heir of the telestial kingdom, but if they waited that long, they will have procrastinated the day of their repentance and will find themselves sealed to the devil as their final state (Alma 34:30-35). 
  
  Alma 34:34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
  
  The same evil and unclean spirit that possessed their mortal bodies will have the power to possess their resurrected body in that eternal world.  So what is it that they will confess when confronted with their continued unrepentance that prevented them from attaining the terrestrial kingdom?  They will have to confess that because they lived without God in the world, that the judgment of eternal punishment is just upon them.  
  
  Mosiah 27:31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye.
  
  They cannot remain unrepentant until their evil spirit is restored to their body in the resurrection, and then be granted entrance into the kingdom of God, not without making the kingdom of God filthy also.  Wickedness never was happiness, and something that was carnal and devilish will remain spiritually dead (second death), and won't be made alive spiritually so that they can enjoy the presence and companionship with the Holy Ghost in a kingdom so glorious that it surpasses all understanding.  No, you cannot reject Jesus and escape the second death, and the Book of Mormon makes that very clear.  It makes it so clear that were man to be reclaimed from the spiritual death brought on by their own disobedience without meeting the condition of repentance, then mercy would rob justice, and the god who taught such a thing would cease to be god.  

So then, you believe the inheritors of the telestial kingdom of glory will somehow be able to enjoy and appreciate the companionship of the Holy Spirt (whose primary mission is to bear witness of the Father and the Son) after the resurrection without first accepting Christ as their personal Savior? Doctrine and Covenants 76 testifies that the only individuals who will not be forgiven by the final judgement are the sons of perdition (see below). Therefore, do you actually believe the inheritors of the telestial kingdom are going to obtain a remission of their sins and the companionship of the Holy Spirit without first having to exercise faith in Christ unto repentance, an idea that’s taught nowhere in the scriptures?

Doctrine and Covenats 76 makes it clear that the only ones who will not eventually be redeemed by the Savior are the sons of perdition. So are you saying that it’s possible to be redeemed and obtain a kingdom of glory without having to exercise agency and agree to this arrangement first? And if the only individuals who will experience the second death are the sons of perdition, are you saying you believe that great hosts of those who will be made spiritually alive through Christ won’t have to first agree to the terms of their redemption — that it will just be thrust upon them without any say in the matter?

By the way, about 25 years ago I did a very deep dive on this subject and discovered multiple scores of quotes from many of the early leaders of the Church who consistently taught that entry into the telestial glory is only made possible by an acceptance of Christ as Savior and sincere repentance.

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;

43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.

Edited yesterday at 05:40 AM by teddyaware

[Tgwctbg]

If you have easy access to those scores of quotes from early leaders, and are willing to share, I would love to consider them. 

To your first sentence, that is what D&C 76:74, 82 and the manuals seem to indicate.  You go to the terrestrial if you accept Jesus in spirit prison, and the telestial if you don't.  Those in the telestial do not become cleansed from their sins by the blood of Christ, but by their own suffering.  

"These inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will have become clean through their suffering so that they can abide telestial glory."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/33-kingdoms-of-glory-and-perdition?lang=eng

When I read D&C 76:82-83, it says very clearly that they do not accept the gospel, or the testimony of Jesus.  Here is a manual that agrees.  

"Telestial
These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng

If they must receive it, and repent, when does that take place if not during the mortal probation, or in the spirit world before the day of judgment?  Can they repent and accept the gospel at the day of judgment, or have they not procrastinated their repentance until it was everlastingly too late?

Helaman 13:38 But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head.

I also I have to ask you if you see the unbelieving, the liars, sorcerers, and whoremongers suffering the second death after judgment, and then being redeemed at some point after judgment, or if they skip the second death altogether?  D&C 63:17 says they shall have their part in the second death, and the second death doesn't occur until after the resurrection, when death and hell give up their dead to be judged? 

"The scriptures sometimes speak of salvation from the second death. The second death is the final spiritual death—being cut off from righteousness and denied a place in any kingdom of glory (see Alma 12:32; Doctrine and Covenants 88:24). This second death will not come until the Final Judgment..."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/salvation?lang=eng

¹¹ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. ¹³ And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. ¹⁴ And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. ¹⁵ And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
...
⁶ And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. ⁷ He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. ⁸ But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 20:11 - 21:8

The reason I ask about the second death is because both Rev 21 and D&C 63 both say they suffer the second death, which only takes place after the great and last day of judgment.  Do you think that the unrepentant, who rejected Jesus in mortality, and again in spirit prison, have their names written in the Lamb's book of life? 

Additionally, If the second death does not precede the reconciliation of the unjust from the first spiritual death at resurrection, and being cut off AGAIN is how the second death is described in Helaman 14:15-18, then do the liars, sorcerers, and whoremongers of D&C 76:103 suffer the second death after Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father "spotless" at the day of judgment (D&C 76:106-107).  If their suffering is after judgment, consistent with the second death, when do they become spotless and join the telestial kingdom, lest the kingdom of God be filthy also?  

What I see in 2 Nephi 9:27-38 is a warning that those who know the commandments an waste the days of their probation will suffer an awful state (v.27).  These liars (v.34), and whoremongers (v.36), who die in their sins will stand before God on the day of judgment and remain in their sins (v.38).  Alma 34 definitely expounds on that awful state by saying the Spirit withdraws completely from them, they are sealed to the devil, and that is their final state (vv.34-35).  Alma 12:14-18, 32 and 1 Nephi 15:32-35 elaborate that if man dies in their sins, they will suffer the penalty of the second death, and go away into the place for that which is filthy, the awful hell where Satan goes.  

1 Nephi 15:33 Wherefore, if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.
34 But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.
35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

To your question about the telestial kingdom being thrust upon them, that would only be true if the telestial kingdom actually exists.  If man repents, then they should inherit the terrestrial kingdom.  If they don't repent, then they should suffer the second death because of their willful rejection of Christ.  A telestial kingdom shouldn't be possible, except there has to be a way to explain this scenario of people who don't accpet Christ, and never received the Holy Ghost to be able to deny Him. 

They never repent to inherit the terrestrial kingdom, and so they are in this very weird state of complete rejection of Jesus, without being able to qualify as a son of perdition (D&C 76:82-83).  If they want nothing to do with Christ and desire captivity and death, but can't blaspheme the Holy Ghost to become a son of perdition because they never accepted the gospel, then do they actually have agency in this specific scenario?  When they reject Jesus and chose evil, but are placed in the telestial kingdom with the third member of the Godhead because they can't qualify as a son of perdition, is their agency honored or violated?  

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Tgwctbg said:

If you have easy access to those scores of quotes from early leaders, and are willing to share, I would love to consider them. 

To your first sentence, that is what D&C 76:74, 82 and the manuals seem to indicate.  You go to the terrestrial if you accept Jesus in spirit prison, and the telestial if you don't.  Those in the telestial do not become cleansed from their sins by the blood of Christ, but by their own suffering.  

"These inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will have become clean through their suffering so that they can abide telestial glory."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/33-kingdoms-of-glory-and-perdition?lang=eng

When I read D&C 76:82-83, it says very clearly that they do not accept the gospel, or the testimony of Jesus.  Here is a manual that agrees.  

"Telestial
These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng

If they must receive it, and repent, when does that take place if not during the mortal probation, or in the spirit world before the day of judgment?  Can they repent and accept the gospel at the day of judgment, or have they not procrastinated their repentance until it was everlastingly too late?

Helaman 13:38 But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head.

I also I have to ask you if you see the unbelieving, the liars, sorcerers, and whoremongers suffering the second death after judgment, and then being redeemed at some point after judgment, or if they skip the second death altogether?  D&C 63:17 says they shall have their part in the second death, and the second death doesn't occur until after the resurrection, when death and hell give up their dead to be judged? 

"The scriptures sometimes speak of salvation from the second death. The second death is the final spiritual death—being cut off from righteousness and denied a place in any kingdom of glory (see Alma 12:32; Doctrine and Covenants 88:24). This second death will not come until the Final Judgment..."
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/salvation?lang=eng

¹¹ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. ¹² And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. ¹³ And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. ¹⁴ And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. ¹⁵ And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
...
⁶ And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. ⁷ He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. ⁸ But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 20:11 - 21:8

The reason I ask about the second death is because both Rev 21 and D&C 63 both say they suffer the second death, which only takes place after the great and last day of judgment.  Do you think that the unrepentant, who rejected Jesus in mortality, and again in spirit prison, have their names written in the Lamb's book of life? 

Additionally, If the second death does not precede the reconciliation of the unjust from the first spiritual death at resurrection, and being cut off AGAIN is how the second death is described in Helaman 14:15-18, then do the liars, sorcerers, and whoremongers of D&C 76:103 suffer the second death after Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father "spotless" at the day of judgment (D&C 76:106-107).  If their suffering is after judgment, consistent with the second death, when do they become spotless and join the telestial kingdom, lest the kingdom of God be filthy also?  

What I see in 2 Nephi 9:27-38 is a warning that those who know the commandments an waste the days of their probation will suffer an awful state (v.27).  These liars (v.34), and whoremongers (v.36), who die in their sins will stand before God on the day of judgment and remain in their sins (v.38).  Alma 34 definitely expounds on that awful state by saying the Spirit withdraws completely from them, they are sealed to the devil, and that is their final state (vv.34-35).  Alma 12:14-18, 32 and 1 Nephi 15:32-35 elaborate that if man dies in their sins, they will suffer the penalty of the second death, and go away into the place for that which is filthy, the awful hell where Satan goes.  

1 Nephi 15:33 Wherefore, if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.
34 But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.
35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.

To your question about the telestial kingdom being thrust upon them, that would only be true if the telestial kingdom actually exists.  If man repents, then they should inherit the terrestrial kingdom.  If they don't repent, then they should suffer the second death because of their willful rejection of Christ.  A telestial kingdom shouldn't be possible, except there has to be a way to explain this scenario of people who don't accpet Christ, and never received the Holy Ghost to be able to deny Him. 

They never repent to inherit the terrestrial kingdom, and so they are in this very weird state of complete rejection of Jesus, without being able to qualify as a son of perdition (D&C 76:82-83).  If they want nothing to do with Christ and desire captivity and death, but can't blaspheme the Holy Ghost to become a son of perdition because they never accepted the gospel, then do they actually have agency in this specific scenario?  When they reject Jesus and chose evil, but are placed in the telestial kingdom with the third member of the Godhead because they can't qualify as a son of perdition, is their agency honored or violated?  

My church member brother and I both worked on that project to uncover as many quotes about the inheritors of the telestial kingdom as we could find, and did so using the then popular Infobase Library CD-Rom as our source of data. It was amazing and truly eye opening to come to the realization that so many of the early church General Authorities repeatedly taught that accepting Christ as Savior and confessing him before the Father is an absolute prerequisite for entry into the post-resurrection telestial kingdom of glory.

Perhaps if the Infobase Library is still available you could do your own search on the subject by using search terms such as “telestial glory, salvation”. As for where that stack of papers might be with the many quotes we printed out at that time might happen be would be a challenge since I’ve moved twice since that time and I’m not a highly organized person.

At the conclusion of the project, my brother even wrote a rather long and persuasive summary on our findings. And I must say that as a consequence of that project you could respond to me with your line of reasoning till you’re blue in the face but you’ll never be able to persuade me to budge an inch from my present stance because what the early brethren had to say on the subject if far too beautiful, glorious and sensible to ignore.

Without getting bogged down in the rhetorical mire with too much information to digest all at once, let’s proceed by addressing one simple question at a time with direct on-point responses. My first question for you is this: do you believe the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will need to obtain a remission of their sins through Christ prior to receiving their salvation in the telestial kingdom of glory?

Edited yesterday at 01:36 PM by teddyaware