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Tgwctbg

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  1. "My first question for you is this: do you believe the inheritors of the telestial kingdom will need to obtain a remission of their sins through Christ prior to receiving their salvation in the telestial kingdom of glory?" That is a reasonable question, and my first gut reaction is no. I'll try not to be too long winded. "Remission of Sins See also Atone, Atonement; Forgive; Jesus Christ; Repent, Repentance Forgiveness for wrongdoing upon condition of repentance. Remission of sins is made possible by the Atonement of Jesus Christ. A person obtains a remission of his sins if he has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, receives the ordinances of baptism and laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost, and obeys God’s commandments." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/remission-of-sins?lang=eng According to this, receiving a remission of our sins requires faith, repentance, ordinances, and obedience. Those in the telestial world definitely do not receive a remission because they do not receive the gospel of Christ, or the testimony of Jesus (D&C 76:82). That is the short answer. The longer answer pertains to the terrestrial kingdom. D&C 76:52 and 3 Nephi 27:16-20 make it clear that only those who repent of all their sins, and endure to the end in obeying the commandments will have washed their garments clean in the blood of the Lamb. All others (terrestrial/telestial/Sons of Perdition) fall short of obtaining a remission of their sins, which logically explains why they go to spirit prison to suffer. Those who are not valiant in their testimony of Jesus have some unrepentant sin that prevents them from obtaining celestial glory, and keeps them from coming forth in the morning of the first resurrection. Because they are not celestial heirs, there is at least some sin for which they don't receive a remission, and they must wait until the afternoon of the first resurrection. They must suffer the penalty for their sins because they are not washed clean by the blood of the Lamb like those in the celestial kingdom. Those in the telestial kingdom remain completely unrepentant, destined for the second resurrection, again suffering the penalty of their sins rather than receiving a remission. However, in 3 Nephi 27:17, Jesus says that those who do not endure to the end, they go into the fire from whence they can no more return. 3 Nephi 27:16 And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world. 17 And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father. 18 And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words. 19 And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end. Because of the justice of God, if you do not repent of all our sins and endure to the end, when we stand before him when he judges the world, we will be cast down into the fire from whence we can no more return. In trying to reconcile these words in 3 Nephi 27 with D&C 76, I initially posited that entering into his kingdom and entering into his rest are synonymous with the celestial kingdom, and not the lower two degrees of glory, but the ultimate fate of being cast into the fire and not being able to return from that judgment seems to preclude that reconciliation. I am not sure how your reconcile the words of Jesus in 3 Nephi 27 with D&C 76, but I do not see how those who are not valiant in enduring to the end can be cast into the fire from whence they can no more return, and also inherit a lower level of heaven without meeting the plan of redemption's condition of repentance and being washed clean by the blood of the Lamb.
  2. If you have easy access to those scores of quotes from early leaders, and are willing to share, I would love to consider them. To your first sentence, that is what D&C 76:74, 82 and the manuals seem to indicate. You go to the terrestrial if you accept Jesus in spirit prison, and the telestial if you don't. Those in the telestial do not become cleansed from their sins by the blood of Christ, but by their own suffering. "These inhabitants of the telestial kingdom will have become clean through their suffering so that they can abide telestial glory." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/33-kingdoms-of-glory-and-perdition?lang=eng When I read D&C 76:82-83, it says very clearly that they do not accept the gospel, or the testimony of Jesus. Here is a manual that agrees. "Telestial These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-46-the-final-judgment?lang=eng If they must receive it, and repent, when does that take place if not during the mortal probation, or in the spirit world before the day of judgment? Can they repent and accept the gospel at the day of judgment, or have they not procrastinated their repentance until it was everlastingly too late? Helaman 13:38 But behold, your days of probation are past; ye have procrastinated the day of your salvation until it is everlastingly too late, and your destruction is made sure; yea, for ye have sought all the days of your lives for that which ye could not obtain; and ye have sought for happiness in doing iniquity, which thing is contrary to the nature of that righteousness which is in our great and Eternal Head. I also I have to ask you if you see the unbelieving, the liars, sorcerers, and whoremongers suffering the second death after judgment, and then being redeemed at some point after judgment, or if they skip the second death altogether? D&C 63:17 says they shall have their part in the second death, and the second death doesn't occur until after the resurrection, when death and hell give up their dead to be judged? "The scriptures sometimes speak of salvation from the second death. The second death is the final spiritual death—being cut off from righteousness and denied a place in any kingdom of glory (see Alma 12:32; Doctrine and Covenants 88:24). This second death will not come until the Final Judgment..." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/salvation?lang=eng 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. ... 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. Revelation 20:11 - 21:8 The reason I ask about the second death is because both Rev 21 and D&C 63 both say they suffer the second death, which only takes place after the great and last day of judgment. Do you think that the unrepentant, who rejected Jesus in mortality, and again in spirit prison, have their names written in the Lamb's book of life? Additionally, If the second death does not precede the reconciliation of the unjust from the first spiritual death at resurrection, and being cut off AGAIN is how the second death is described in Helaman 14:15-18, then do the liars, sorcerers, and whoremongers of D&C 76:103 suffer the second death after Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father "spotless" at the day of judgment (D&C 76:106-107). If their suffering is after judgment, consistent with the second death, when do they become spotless and join the telestial kingdom, lest the kingdom of God be filthy also? What I see in 2 Nephi 9:27-38 is a warning that those who know the commandments an waste the days of their probation will suffer an awful state (v.27). These liars (v.34), and whoremongers (v.36), who die in their sins will stand before God on the day of judgment and remain in their sins (v.38). Alma 34 definitely expounds on that awful state by saying the Spirit withdraws completely from them, they are sealed to the devil, and that is their final state (vv.34-35). Alma 12:14-18, 32 and 1 Nephi 15:32-35 elaborate that if man dies in their sins, they will suffer the penalty of the second death, and go away into the place for that which is filthy, the awful hell where Satan goes. 1 Nephi 15:33 Wherefore, if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also. 34 But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy. 35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken. To your question about the telestial kingdom being thrust upon them, that would only be true if the telestial kingdom actually exists. If man repents, then they should inherit the terrestrial kingdom. If they don't repent, then they should suffer the second death because of their willful rejection of Christ. A telestial kingdom shouldn't be possible, except there has to be a way to explain this scenario of people who don't accpet Christ, and never received the Holy Ghost to be able to deny Him. They never repent to inherit the terrestrial kingdom, and so they are in this very weird state of complete rejection of Jesus, without being able to qualify as a son of perdition (D&C 76:82-83). If they want nothing to do with Christ and desire captivity and death, but can't blaspheme the Holy Ghost to become a son of perdition because they never accepted the gospel, then do they actually have agency in this specific scenario? When they reject Jesus and chose evil, but are placed in the telestial kingdom with the third member of the Godhead because they can't qualify as a son of perdition, is their agency honored or violated?
  3. D&C 63:17 makes it clear that the unrepentant, the unbelieving, liars, sorcerers, and whoremongers will suffer the second death, which means to be cut off from ALL things which are spiritual (including the Holy Ghost), from the things pertaining to righteousness. Your instinct and understanding about the Book of Mormon is spot on in that repentance is the only condition by which the plan of redemption can redeem man from the spiritual death caused by our own disobedience. Redemption from the spiritual death caused by the fall of Adam is universal, and unconditional, but repentance is necessary to be reclaimed from the second spiritual death. Alma 42:12 And now, there was no means to reclaim men from this fallen state, which man had brought upon himself because of his own disobedience; 13 Therefore, according to justice, the plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on conditions of repentance of men in this probationary state, yea, this preparatory state; for except it were for these conditions, mercy could not take effect except it should destroy the work of justice. Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God. Now some speculate, errantly, that those who inherit the telestial kingdom will eventually accept Jesus, repent, and accept the gospel. This error is often perpetuated, even in church manuals, because of the teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith in Doctrines of Salvation. "The Lord has described those who will inherit the telestial kingdom. “Those who enter into the telestial kingdom, where their glories differ as do the stars of heaven in their magnitude, and who are innumerable as the sands of the seashore, are the ungodly, the filthy who suffer the wrath of God on the earth, who are thrust down to hell where they will be required to pay the uttermost farthing before their redemption comes. These are they who receive not the gospel of Christ and consequently could not deny the Holy Spirit while living on the earth. “They have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 2:22)." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/33-kingdoms-of-glory-and-perdition?lang=eng This is clearly an error, because if they rejected the gospel and the testimony of Jesus in mortality, and accepted it "afterwards", they would be heirs of the terrestrial kingdom (D&C 76:74). Thus, out of necessity, and because of D&C 76:82, those who never accept the gospel or receive a testimony of Jesus are heirs of the telestial kingdom. They never repent, which is why the Guide to the Scriptures correctly states the doctrine, where Joseph Fielding Smith didn't. "Those who will not repent, but are nevertheless not sons of perdition, will remain in hell throughout the Millennium. After these thousand years of torment, they will be resurrected to a telestial glory (D&C 76:81–86; 88:100–101)." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/hell?lang=eng Your instinct is correct, because the Book of Mormon does say that those who do not repent will suffer the second death. They will have had the opportunity to have heard the gospel of Christ at least once, by the end of the millennium, and will have rebelled against the truth. They will have chosen evil, rather than chosen liberty and life, and their choice of captivity and death must be honored because of agency. If it isn't, then does man really have agency to choose captivity and death? Some will point to D&C 76:110 and suggest that they will bend the knee on the day of judgment and repent so that they can be an heir of the telestial kingdom, but if they waited that long, they will have procrastinated the day of their repentance and will find themselves sealed to the devil as their final state (Alma 34:30-35). Alma 34:34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. The same evil and unclean spirit that possessed their mortal bodies will have the power to possess their resurrected body in that eternal world. So what is it that they will confess when confronted with their continued unrepentance that prevented them from attaining the terrestrial kingdom? They will have to confess that because they lived without God in the world, that the judgment of eternal punishment is just upon them. Mosiah 27:31 Yea, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess before him. Yea, even at the last day, when all men shall stand to be judged of him, then shall they confess that he is God; then shall they confess, who live without God in the world, that the judgment of an everlasting punishment is just upon them; and they shall quake, and tremble, and shrink beneath the glance of his all-searching eye. They cannot remain unrepentant until their evil spirit is restored to their body in the resurrection, and then be granted entrance into the kingdom of God, not without making the kingdom of God filthy also. Wickedness never was happiness, and something that was carnal and devilish will remain spiritually dead (second death), and won't be made alive spiritually so that they can enjoy the presence and companionship with the Holy Ghost in a kingdom so glorious that it surpasses all understanding. No, you cannot reject Jesus and escape the second death, and the Book of Mormon makes that very clear. It makes it so clear that were man to be reclaimed from the spiritual death brought on by their own disobedience without meeting the condition of repentance, then mercy would rob justice, and the god who taught such a thing would cease to be god.
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