The Narrow Neck of Land and the "Nephites of the Caribbean Model"

[PacMan]

While I won't share all the details, last night while I was reading 3 Nephi and casually thinking about the location for the Book of Mormon lands, a thought popped into my head that (with a small bit of research) has evolved into a rather fascinating, if not preliminary, theory.  I thought about the Central America model, and how the highlands of Guatemala provide some geographic possibility to the mountain-roaming Gadianton robbers.  Then, looking at a recent copy of a National Geographic, I looked at the map of Guatemala, I noted one of the ancient cities call “Lamanai.”  I thought that was interesting, if not merely coincidental.

Then I thought, if we accept that Lehi’s landing did, in fact, occur in Guatemala, where is the narrow neck of land?  Among the Central America models, the Panama Canal and the Isthmus of Tehuantepec are often considered the main candidates for the narrow neck of land.  Still, they have their issues—one of those being, whether there is enough land for the sprawling population needed for the Book of Mormon.  Then I wondered, could it be that we are simply not looking far enough North for the narrow neck of land and the land Northward?

One obstacle/clue, is remembering that at the death of the Lord, “the whole face of the land was changed, and many people and cities were destroyed.”  This included a number of cities that were sunk into the sea, including Moroni, Onihah, Mocum, and Jerusalem.  I wondered what could possibly explain such devastation.  Then the thought came and I wondered if there was ever a land bridge from the Yucatan to Cuba on which Nephite lands could have been populated.

Not only was that likely the case, but this bridge connected to what is now the Southern States.

More interesting, is that back in the early 2000s, a group commissioned by the Cuban government was scanning for sunken ships when they came upon a rather interesting find.
https://www.tampabay.com/archive/2002/11/17/underwater-world-man-s-doing-or-nature-s/

This complex is located just off the Western coast of Cuba.

As I dug deeper, the word “cataclysmic” kept popping up in my research.  Apparently, if this was a man made civilization, the sinking of this city was not due to rising tides because it is 2,000 feet below sea level.  Rather, something happened, such as a giant earthquake, that caused the land bridge to collapse taking this civilization with it.  It would have been a rather singular, massive, cataclysmic event.

What’s also interesting are the many stories that I’ve heard from the Southern US/Georgia area of tall white people that roamed the area before disappearing.  I never gave those much credence because there was simply no way Lehi would have landed there, and it made no sense for the Nephites to make their way from Central America, through modern-day Texas, and around to the Southern US coast.  It just didn’t fit.  Perhaps as the land Northward, but not as the land Southward.

This “Nephites of the Caribbean” model, as I’m calling it, can change that analysis.  In fact, it could even bring some cooperation between the Central American and the Heartland models (maybe?).  

If the now lost Caribbean land bridge between the Yucatan and Cuba/Florida was the Book of Mormon narrow neck of land, how does that inform our understanding of Book of Mormon geography?  Has this ever been explored?

Edited April 15, 2024 by PacMan

[PacMan]

This study gives a geological explanation of the area along with some helpful maps, including:


https://revistamaya.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Rosenfld-2020.pdf

Edited April 15, 2024 by PacMan

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, PacMan said:

While I won't share all the details, last night while I was reading 3 Nephi and casually thinking about the location for the Book of Mormon lands, a thought popped into my head that (with a small bit of research) has evolved into a rather fascinating, if not preliminary, theory.  I thought about the Central America model, and how the highlands of Guatemala provide some geographic possibility to the mountain-roaming Gadianton robbers.  Then, looking at a recent copy of a National Geographic, I looked at the map of Guatemala, I noted one of the ancient cities call “Lamanai.”  I thought that was interesting, if not merely coincidental.

Then I thought, if we accept that Lehi’s landing did, in fact, occur in Guatemala, where is the narrow neck of land?  Among the Central America models, the Panama Canal and the Isthmus of Tehuantepec are often considered the main candidates for the narrow neck of land.  Still, they have their issues—one of those being, whether there is enough land for the sprawling population needed for the Book of Mormon.  Then I wondered, could it be that we are simply not looking far enough North for the narrow neck of land and the land Northward?

One obstacle/clue, is remembering that at the death of the Lord, “the whole face of the land was changed, and many people and cities were destroyed.”  This included a number of cities that were sunk into the sea, including Moroni, Onihah, Mocum, and Jerusalem.  I wondered what could possibly explain such devastation.  Then the thought came and I wondered if there was ever a land bridge from the Yucatan to Cuba on which Nephite lands could have been populated.

Not only was that likely the case, but this bridge connected to what is now the Southern States.

More interesting, is that back in the early 2000s, a group commissioned by the Cuban government was scanning for sunken ships when they came upon a rather interesting find.
https://www.tampabay.com/archive/2002/11/17/underwater-world-man-s-doing-or-nature-s/

This complex is located just off the Western coast of Cuba.

As I dug deeper, the word “cataclysmic” kept popping up in my research.  Apparently, if this was a man made civilization, the sinking of this city was not due to rising tides because it is 2,000 feet below sea level.  Rather, something happened, such as a giant earthquake, that caused the land bridge to collapse taking this civilization with it.  It would have been a rather singular, massive, cataclysmic event.

What’s also interesting are the many stories that I’ve heard from the Southern US/Georgia area of tall white people that roamed the area before disappearing.  I never gave those much credence because there was simply no way Lehi would have landed there, and it made no sense for the Nephites to make their way from Central America, through modern-day Texas, and around to the Southern US coast.  It just didn’t fit.  Perhaps as the land Northward, but not as the land Southward.

This “Nephites of the Caribbean” model, as I’m calling it, can change that analysis.  In fact, it could even bring some cooperation between the Central American and the Heartland models (maybe?).  

If the now lost Caribbean land bridge between the Yucatan and Cuba/Florida was the Book of Mormon narrow neck of land, how does that inform our understanding of Book of Mormon geography?  Has this ever been explored?

Now the MesoAmericanists and Heartlanders will have a common enemy.😡👉 🤕👈😡

I've pondered the thought of a land bridge linking the Yucatan and Florida as Book of Mormon lands. The Book of Mormon does have Columbus landing where the Lehites had lived and he landed in the DR. Your model would answer that prophecy.

Keep digging, I for one won't dismiss it out of hand, and am curious to know what you find.

Edited April 15, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[LoudmouthMormon]

1 hour ago, PacMan said:

More interesting, is that back in the early 2000s, a group commissioned by the Cuban government was scanning for sunken ships when they came upon a rather interesting find.
https://www.tampabay.com/archive/2002/11/17/underwater-world-man-s-doing-or-nature-s/

lol

 

[The Nehor]

The narrow neck is too small to be the site of the Panama canal.

Edited April 15, 2024 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, PacMan said:

More interesting, is that back in the early 2000s, a group commissioned by the Cuban government was scanning for sunken ships when they came upon a rather interesting find.
https://www.tampabay.com/archive/2002/11/17/underwater-world-man-s-doing-or-nature-s/

This complex is located just off the Western coast of Cuba.

 

It is unlikely this city even exists.

Also those pictures of the underwater city are not from the original expedition. This tale has grown in the telling.

[PacMan]

Sorry, but I don't remotely understand your ipse dixit.  The sonar was taken on a subsequent expedition after initial findings.  But why that matters, you tell me.

https://www.news.co.cr/lost-city-found-beneath-cuban-waters/15221/

Said differently, I don't understand the purpose of your response.

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, PacMan said:

Sorry, but I don't remotely understand your ipse dixit.  The sonar was taken on a subsequent expedition after initial findings.  But why that matters, you tell me.

https://www.news.co.cr/lost-city-found-beneath-cuban-waters/15221/

Said differently, I don't understand the purpose of your response.

I am saying there probably is no underwater city.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_underwater_formation

Edit: This is the image from the original story.

There is no reason to believe that the later images promulgated are anything other than extrapolations from that. It is also possible that they are entirely made up.

Edited April 16, 2024 by The Nehor

[PacMan]

47 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am saying there probably is no underwater city.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_underwater_formation

Edit: This is the image from the original story.

There is no reason to believe that the later images promulgated are anything other than extrapolations from that. It is also possible that they are entirely made up.

Of course there is.  Namely, that the scientist said they went back with sonar and did a second scan.  Further, if this was all just made up, then the Washington Post and National Geographic (2002) have some real editorial problems.  Because they also published stories about these findings.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2002/10/10/in-cuban-depths-atlantis-or-anomaly/96b5cd79-9eb8-4fc7-8f18-8a3b3e9b4037/

Your arguments to the contrary are completely unsupported.

[LoudmouthMormon]

13 hours ago, PacMan said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2002/10/10/in-cuban-depths-atlantis-or-anomaly/96b5cd79-9eb8-4fc7-8f18-8a3b3e9b4037/

Your arguments to the contrary are completely unsupported.

This link doesn't have any image of the thing at all.  Your sources don't show what you say they show, or are a tad fringey for my taste, your image unsourcable.  If the story were truly that fantastic, you'd be able to find a good source for that image.

If there is ipse dixiting going on here, I'd also suggest there's a dearth of burden-of-proofery.  As things stand now, without some decent links to reputable sources that show the image you're passing along, I'm filing this as untrustworthy and declining to believe it.

Edited April 16, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

the story were truly that fantastic, you'd be able to find a good source for that image.

This…

[LoudmouthMormon]

Here's a light-hearted guide to evaluating news sources that all us humans (including me) would really benefit from, if we were to adopt the principles contained therein. 

https://i.imgur.com/mDNl2nm.mp4

Edited April 16, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, PacMan said:

Of course there is.  Namely, that the scientist said they went back with sonar and did a second scan.  Further, if this was all just made up, then the Washington Post and National Geographic (2002) have some real editorial problems.  Because they also published stories about these findings.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2002/10/10/in-cuban-depths-atlantis-or-anomaly/96b5cd79-9eb8-4fc7-8f18-8a3b3e9b4037/

Your arguments to the contrary are completely unsupported.

No, they had sonar the first time. They were looking for ship wrecks. What they did the second time was send down a device to do a side scan. That is the image I posted.

Then the discoverers raised money for a third expedition which failed because the submersible failed to be able to get pictures or collect data. Since that was the whole point of the expedition this is a pretty big failure. No backup system? No one fixed it? A suspicious person would wonder if the expedition even happened and maybe it was all a grift. They briefly tried to raise funds for a fourth expedition but this time no one was biting. I don’t blame them.

Some newspapers did pick up the story at first. Their report was accurate. They reported that the discoverers did make some rather strong claims but didn’t endorse them as correct.

Now the only people taking this seriously are the “Ancient Aliens” people and those who want to believe it is part of Atlantis.

Here is an old blog from 2012 discussing this that mostly debunks ‘woo woo’ bad archaeology: https://badarchaeology.wordpress.com/2012/10/28/an-underwater-city-west-of-cuba/

[PacMan]

A lot of unsubstantiated stuff in that article.  Frankly, I'm more inclined to believe the various outlets, including the National Geographic, than a conspiracy anti-conspiracy website happy to dunk on a new Atlantis theory (which makes no sense).  And while I don't know why NG didn't go through with the expedition (if it's true they actually planned one, which itself is unsubstantiated), it's pretty typical for journalistic organizations to offer corrections when corrections are needed.  And thus far, I'm aware of none.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, PacMan said:

A lot of unsubstantiated stuff in that article.  Frankly, I'm more inclined to believe the various outlets, including the National Geographic, than a conspiracy anti-conspiracy website happy to dunk on a new Atlantis theory (which makes no sense).  And while I don't know why NG didn't go through with the expedition (if it's true they actually planned one, which itself is unsubstantiated), it's pretty typical for journalistic organizations to offer corrections when corrections are needed.  And thus far, I'm aware of none.

There wasn’t a correction because there was nothing wrong in the article. They quoted someone saying there was possibly a city there. If they had reported that there was a city there a correction might have been required.

I find it hilarious that you are complaining about the supposed shoddiness of my source after posting pictures that didn’t even come from the expedition. Now that something disagrees with your just as loony as Atlantis theory you suddenly get skeptical?

Do you expect mainstream scientific articles to spend time and money refuting stuff that only the alt-history folk believe in? Why did nothing happen with this if it was credible? Finding this would put the people exploring it on the academic map. They wouldn’t be fighting some mythical scientific thought police that spends time debunking cool things to avoid rocking the boat. If it were credible people would be champing at the bit to look into it. It isn’t so they aren’t.

[PacMan]

47 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Do you expect mainstream scientific articles to spend time and money refuting stuff that only the alt-history folk believe in?

When such mainstream scientific articles promulgate those very stories, absolutely. 

That's called journalism. 

Something your anti-conspiracy conspiracy website clearly knows nothing about.

[The Nehor]

15 hours ago, PacMan said:

When such mainstream scientific articles promulgate those very stories, absolutely. 

That's called journalism. 

Something your anti-conspiracy conspiracy website clearly knows nothing about.

Journalism would also involve following up on those initial articles if there was anything to substantiate anything.

*crickets*

Yeah.

It is a fantasy. The experts all think it is a fantasy. The only people who believe it are those who want it to be Atlantis and you say they are being ridiculous which leaves just you who want it to be a lost Nephite city when it is too far down to be a Nephite city unless there was a rare tectonic sinking event. It would have to be 50,000 years old or more to have sunk by normal means and there is no known civilization that old that could build the buildings that are supposed to make up this “city”. If it was a sinking event that would almost certainly have knocked down any of the buildings.

And all this conjecture is based on some overhead sonar readings we don’t have and the one side sonar picture from a robotic submersible that I posted. That is it. That doesn’t show evidence of buildings. No one has taken pictures of this supposed city. No diver has seen it. No video has recorded it. Do you not realize how tenuous this whole thing is?

[ZealouslyStriving]

On 4/15/2024 at 4:45 PM, PacMan said:

Sorry, but I don't remotely understand your ipse dixit.  The sonar was taken on a subsequent expedition after initial findings.  But why that matters, you tell me.

https://www.news.co.cr/lost-city-found-beneath-cuban-waters/15221/

Said differently, I don't understand the purpose of your response.

All the scientist thought that ancient Dwarka was a myth... Until they found it.

How about we all hold off judgement until the day when the area can actually be explored.

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

How about we all hold off judgement until the day when the area can actually be explored.

Done.  In fact, I'll go one step further, and not devote a single brain-cell to thinking about what anyone is saying about the area, until that day.

In related news, God gave most of us the capacity to understand this chart:

[ksfisher]

21 hours ago, PacMan said:

I'm more inclined to believe the various outlets, including the National Geographic,

Do you have a link to the original National Geographic article?

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

All the scientist thought that ancient Dwarka was a myth... Until they found it.

Except they almost certainly didn’t.

[ZealouslyStriving]

23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Except they almost certainly didn’t.

I think the Indians would beg to differ...

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/dwarka-pm-modi-dwarkadhish-temple-lord-krishna-underwater-marine-archaeology-archaeological-evidence-purans-mahabharat-2507713-2024-02-27

 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think the Indians would beg to differ...

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/dwarka-pm-modi-dwarkadhish-temple-lord-krishna-underwater-marine-archaeology-archaeological-evidence-purans-mahabharat-2507713-2024-02-27

 

The Indian government sure would. I suspect they are lying. The Prime Minister is a Hindu Nationalist who is using the Hindu religion to stir up his people against Muslims and other religious minorities. He is a fascist. Reinforcing the idea of a glorious past is a key element of fascism. Nazi archaeologists made several “discoveries” about the glorious past history of the German people.

It is kind of strange that they pulled all the archaeologists studying the supposed site of Dwarka out and now none of them are talking about the site. Then the prime minister does a kind of pilgrimage to the supposed site.

A suspicious person might suspect that there is no evidence Dwarka is there at all and Modi is using this discovery as religious propaganda.

[Zosimus]

11 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think the Indians would beg to differ...

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/dwarka-pm-modi-dwarkadhish-temple-lord-krishna-underwater-marine-archaeology-archaeological-evidence-purans-mahabharat-2507713-2024-02-27

The difference is that Dwarka, the Indian city, was never really lost. Its been a pilgrimage site associated with Krishna for centuries. What has been discovered is what seems to be a portion of Dwarka, maybe a port given the discovery of stone anchors, that was submerged. If you are claiming that the hometown of Lord Krishna that was submerged during the opening of the Kali Yuga has been discovered, that's going to require a lot more evidence than what has been found.

Don't get me wrong, I'd be thrilled if evidence of Krishna's Dwarka was found. But I've been there, and it seems to me to be more of a submerged port than an entire city wiped out by an apocalyptic event.

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

A suspicious person might suspect that there is no evidence Dwarka is there at all and Modi is using this discovery as religious propaganda.

I'm no Modi fan, but Indian archeologists have been making these claims for decades

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Zosimus said:

I'm no Modi fan, but Indian archeologists have been making these claims for decades

Yeah, but the prime minister is not usually going on pilgrimages to sites when overenthusiastic people declare they have found some fabled site.

Still better than a lot of what Modi is doing. Compared to massacring muslims, destroying mosques, and declaring yourself a priest and blessing a new temple built where the mosque once stood this is relatively harmless.