Multi-Denominational Mormonism?

[ZealouslyStriving]

@PortalToParis

"I the LDS church and the now CoC have both diverged from certain original teachings of Joseph Smith's time. Right now we are two splinter groups,"

**There are more than just two "splinter groups".

but I think we can continue reverting back to all original teachings as they were restored. I think that way, way in the future a convergence can be made, in which our principles and teachings return back to harmony with each other and we become one in Zion again."

** What are the "original teachings", in your opinion, that we need to revert back to?

If co-operation and bridge building are a passion of yours, you might appreciate the efforts of Patrick and Jim McKay. They are leaders in the JCRB (Joint Conference of Restoration Branches).

"If I were the Lord, I imagine my plan for the Millennium would be to settle all inter-church and inter-faith disputes such that we are no more "LDS Mormons" or "FLDS Mormons" or "RLDS Mormons", just like in The Book of Mormon we read that the people became no longer Nephites, Ishmaelites, Lamanites, or any manner of -ites. I don't know if that answer satisfies you or not, it might sound too 'Christian universalism' to you, but that's what I think. Regardless, I still believe the ordination of the priesthood from those who received it from the line of Joseph Smith to be valid, and is in effect for those who use it worthily"

** I tried believing this way for a while, towards the end of my wilderness journey, but then realized it is not feasible in God's house, which is a "house of order". Multiple claimants running around, teaching different things, claiming they are right and the others are wrong cannot all have the authority of the Priesthood. It would just create confusion.

The key to discerning between all the claims- besides the Holy Spirit - is the House of the Lord and the thing that pressed most heavily on the Prophet Joseph's mind before his martyrdom- baptism for the dead. Any church/groups that does not spare any expense in seeking out and redeeming the dead is not the Church that the Lord has called to perform his marvelous work in the winding up scene before his second coming.

*The RLDS and other Missouri factions doubt or outright reject baptism for the dead.

*The fundamentalist groups are so obsessed with living Celestial Plural Marriage that they neglect, to a large extent, a full-court press on ordinances for the dead- not realizing the promise in the Doctrine and Covenants that if our enemies prevent us from performing His commands, He will relieve us of the obligation and bless us as though we had kept them.

Finally, Numbers 17 is a good type for our day. Of the many groups claiming to be the legitimate successor to the original Church organized by the Lord's Servant, Joseph Smith Jr., only one has budded, flowered, and born fruit- all the others are stagnant or dying on the vine.

[PortalToParis]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

What are the "original teachings", in your opinion, that we need to revert back to?

I don't pretend to know everything about how Joseph Smith established the church of his time and how it has since evolved (or devolved.) I think one original teaching was allowing all worthy men to hold the priesthood and attend the temple, which we now follow. I think another will be eschewing the doctrine of polygamy.

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

it is not feasible in God's house, which is a "house of order". Multiple claimants running around, teaching different things, claiming they are right and the others are wrong

I don't advocate for Mormon factions to come together as we and they are now, we have a lot of disharmony with eachother. That's why I suggested it be a way-in-the future thing if it happened, and only if there's first a necessary amount of false teachings and practices that are rooted out. I think the Lord could definitely make it part of His plan in redeeming Zion.

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Multiple claimants running around, teaching different things, claiming they are right and the others are wrong

Are you referring to the Sunday School class of my old small-town ward?

Edited April 6, 2024 by PortalToParis

[Calm]

3 hours ago, PortalToParis said:

I don't advocate for Mormon factions to come together as we and they are now, we have a lot of disharmony with eachother. That's why I suggested it be a way-in-the future thing if it happened, and only if there's first a necessary amount of false teachings and practices that are rooted out. I think the Lord could definitely make it part of His plan in redeeming Zion.

I can see some of the schisms being better at practicing certain aspects of the faith and then bringing that experience back into the Church to enrich the main branch.  I have a hard time seeing them as equal in authority (but that is likely bias from the faith I grew up in and still believe) and the fundamentalist ones that have extensive records of abuse seem to have gone too far off line, but I can get behind the idea of a family where some members have wandered and learned much while doing so coming back home and becoming one again and the core of the family that remained holding on too hard to some traditions now being able to shed those traditions that held them back because of the influx.

Edited April 6, 2024 by Calm

[CV75]

5 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

@PortalToParis

"I the LDS church and the now CoC have both diverged from certain original teachings of Joseph Smith's time. Right now we are two splinter groups,"

**There are more than just two "splinter groups".

but I think we can continue reverting back to all original teachings as they were restored. I think that way, way in the future a convergence can be made, in which our principles and teachings return back to harmony with each other and we become one in Zion again."

** What are the "original teachings", in your opinion, that we need to revert back to?

If co-operation and bridge building are a passion of yours, you might appreciate the efforts of Patrick and Jim McKay. They are leaders in the JCRB (Joint Conference of Restoration Branches).

"If I were the Lord, I imagine my plan for the Millennium would be to settle all inter-church and inter-faith disputes such that we are no more "LDS Mormons" or "FLDS Mormons" or "RLDS Mormons", just like in The Book of Mormon we read that the people became no longer Nephites, Ishmaelites, Lamanites, or any manner of -ites. I don't know if that answer satisfies you or not, it might sound too 'Christian universalism' to you, but that's what I think. Regardless, I still believe the ordination of the priesthood from those who received it from the line of Joseph Smith to be valid, and is in effect for those who use it worthily"

** I tried believing this way for a while, towards the end of my wilderness journey, but then realized it is not feasible in God's house, which is a "house of order". Multiple claimants running around, teaching different things, claiming they are right and the others are wrong cannot all have the authority of the Priesthood. It would just create confusion.

The key to discerning between all the claims- besides the Holy Spirit - is the House of the Lord and the thing that pressed most heavily on the Prophet Joseph's mind before his martyrdom- baptism for the dead. Any church/groups that does not spare any expense in seeking out and redeeming the dead is not the Church that the Lord has called to perform his marvelous work in the winding up scene before his second coming.

*The RLDS and other Missouri factions doubt or outright reject baptism for the dead.

*The fundamentalist groups are so obsessed with living Celestial Plural Marriage that they neglect, to a large extent, a full-court press on ordinances for the dead- not realizing the promise in the Doctrine and Covenants that if our enemies prevent us from performing His commands, He will relieve us of the obligation and bless us as though we had kept them.

Finally, Numbers 17 is a good type for our day. Of the many groups claiming to be the legitimate successor to the original Church organized by the Lord's Servant, Joseph Smith Jr., only one has budded, flowered, and born fruit- all the others are stagnant or dying on the vine.

I know there is multi-denominational tithing in the Church when cash is used -- is that the same thing?

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I know there is multi-denominational tithing in the Church when cash is used -- is that the same thing?

Well in today's world, we each can have are own truth... Is it the same thing to you? 😜 

[MiserereNobis]

The Catholic Church and Western Orthodox both accept the other’s priesthood as valid. It’s interesting to see that idea in the restorationist branches. 

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, PortalToParis said:

I don't advocate for Mormon factions to come together as we and they are now, we have a lot of disharmony with eachother. That's why I suggested it be a way-in-the future thing if it happened, and only if there's first a necessary amount of false teachings and practices that are rooted out. I think the Lord could definitely make it part of His plan in redeeming Zion.

I had an interesting dream when I was serving as a full-time missionary around fifty years ago. It was very short, but very memorable. In the dream I was standing in a large, rather fancy-schmancy dining hall with four-top tables. There were only two people in the hall. We were on opposite sides of one of those soft rope-like room dividers that are sometimes used to separate spaces, or separate queues. The other man was sitting at one of the tables. I stood there looking at him, and he turned to me and said, very condescendingly, "We're orthodox Mormons!" End of dream.

Was this a portentous dream? Or just due to what I had for dinner? No idea. But what I took from that dream was that maybe one day I would have to distinguish between sides in a factional conflict. One thing I was sure of, though, was that the man in the dream was on the wrong side.

Edited to add: I remember the Lord's word: "If ye are not one, ye are not mine." 

Edited April 6, 2024 by Stargazer

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Well in today's world, we each can have are own truth... Is it the same thing to you? 😜 

That has always been the case for most of history. The dangerous thing today is that some are saying we can have our own facts.

[PortalToParis]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I have a hard time seeing them as equal in authority (but that is likely bias from the faith I grew up in and still believe) and the fundamentalist ones that have extensive records of abuse seem to have gone too far off line,

I definitely wouldn't see them all as having equal authority either, and I think every FLDS church leader should be in jail.

Edited April 6, 2024 by PortalToParis

[randy]

On 4/6/2024 at 9:05 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

@PortalToParis

"I the LDS church and the now CoC have both diverged from certain original teachings of Joseph Smith's time. Right now we are two splinter groups,"

**There are more than just two "splinter groups".

but I think we can continue reverting back to all original teachings as they were restored. I think that way, way in the future a convergence can be made, in which our principles and teachings return back to harmony with each other and we become one in Zion again."

** What are the "original teachings", in your opinion, that we need to revert back to?

If co-operation and bridge building are a passion of yours, you might appreciate the efforts of Patrick and Jim McKay. They are leaders in the JCRB (Joint Conference of Restoration Branches).

"If I were the Lord, I imagine my plan for the Millennium would be to settle all inter-church and inter-faith disputes such that we are no more "LDS Mormons" or "FLDS Mormons" or "RLDS Mormons", just like in The Book of Mormon we read that the people became no longer Nephites, Ishmaelites, Lamanites, or any manner of -ites. I don't know if that answer satisfies you or not, it might sound too 'Christian universalism' to you, but that's what I think. Regardless, I still believe the ordination of the priesthood from those who received it from the line of Joseph Smith to be valid, and is in effect for those who use it worthily"

** I tried believing this way for a while, towards the end of my wilderness journey, but then realized it is not feasible in God's house, which is a "house of order". Multiple claimants running around, teaching different things, claiming they are right and the others are wrong cannot all have the authority of the Priesthood. It would just create confusion.

The key to discerning between all the claims- besides the Holy Spirit - is the House of the Lord and the thing that pressed most heavily on the Prophet Joseph's mind before his martyrdom- baptism for the dead. Any church/groups that does not spare any expense in seeking out and redeeming the dead is not the Church that the Lord has called to perform his marvelous work in the winding up scene before his second coming.

*The RLDS and other Missouri factions doubt or outright reject baptism for the dead.

*The fundamentalist groups are so obsessed with living Celestial Plural Marriage that they neglect, to a large extent, a full-court press on ordinances for the dead- not realizing the promise in the Doctrine and Covenants that if our enemies prevent us from performing His commands, He will relieve us of the obligation and bless us as though we had kept them.

Finally, Numbers 17 is a good type for our day. Of the many groups claiming to be the legitimate successor to the original Church organized by the Lord's Servant, Joseph Smith Jr., only one has budded, flowered, and born fruit- all the others are stagnant or dying on the vine.

I was born and raised in Indep. Mo....our family joined the LDS church in 1964.  When I was newly married (very young)...Patrick McKay was my neighbor.  We both lived across the street from the Enoch Hill Congregation of the RLDS, which at the time was considered a bastion of, and defender of fundamental/conservative RLDS doctrine.  Patrick was VERY much a "Brigham Bad" personality, I suspect he still is.  He never had much positive to say about the LDS Church doctrinally, although he did appreciate what the Church does as far as taking care of it's own, and humanitarian efforts around the world.  Patrick never struck me as a "bridge builder", but rather one who was waiting for the Lord to "set the RLDS Church in order", then lower the boom on the Brighamites.    Having said that....I do hope that he has changed and that he is sincerely trying to establish good will.

Edited April 9, 2024 by randy

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 minutes ago, randy said:

I was born and raised in Indep. Mo....our family joined the LDS church in 1964.  When I was newly married (very young)...Patrick McKay was my neighbor.  We both lived across the street from the Enoch Hill Congregation of the RLDS, which at the time was considered a bastion of, and defender of fundamental/conservative RLDS doctrine.  Patrick was VERY much a "Brigham Bad" personality, I suspect he still is.  He never had much positive to say about the LDS Church doctrinally, although he did appreciate what the Church does as far as taking care of it's own, and humanitarian efforts around the world.  Patrick never struck me as a "bridge builder", but rather one who was waiting for the Lord to "set the RLDS Church in order", then lower the boom on the Brighamites.    Having said that....I do hope that he has changed and that he is sincerely trying to establish good will.

I also know Patrick (and Jim) personally. You might be surprised how far they've come. The are leading the charge in bride- building efforts.

https://youtu.be/librXKqTRl0?si=Juq0mJ3ntnput7DF

[randy]

On 4/6/2024 at 10:07 AM, PortalToParis said:

I don't pretend to know everything about how Joseph Smith established the church of his time and how it has since evolved (or devolved.) I think one original teaching was allowing all worthy men to hold the priesthood and attend the temple, which we now follow. I think another will be eschewing the doctrine of polygamy.

I don't advocate for Mormon factions to come together as we and they are now, we have a lot of disharmony with eachother. That's why I suggested it be a way-in-the future thing if it happened, and only if there's first a necessary amount of false teachings and practices that are rooted out. I think the Lord could definitely make it part of His plan in redeeming Zion.

Are you referring to the Sunday School class of my old small-town ward?

The members of all the Restoration Factions/Branches/Church of Christ Temple Lot and the others....simply need to accept the Restored Gospel in it's fullness and join with the Saints in the LDS church.  Pres. Nelson boldly outlined what we ALL need to be doing, and what we need to be doing NOW!  Our Restoration cousins need to humble themselves with respect to the past "Differences that Persist", and join the fellowship of the Saints!  They need to come aboard the ARK!  A couple of raindrops fell over the weekend!

[randy]

8 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I also know Patrick (and Jim) personally. You might be surprised how far they've come. The are leading the charge in bride- building efforts.

https://youtu.be/librXKqTRl0?si=Juq0mJ3ntnput7DF

This is good!   I will check out the video!  Thank you!   Let me ask you though, whilst I got ya...if you were to describe what Patrick's "desire" is for the Restoration groups...what would it be and how does he feel it will need to be accomplished?

[ZealouslyStriving]

12 minutes ago, randy said:

This is good!   I will check out the video!  Thank you!   Let me ask you though, whilst I got ya...if you were to describe what Patrick's "desire" is for the Restoration groups...what would it be and how does he feel it will need to be accomplished?

I think it's that we choose to find places we have in common and can cooperate, instead of focusing so much on our differences. For example, there is a "Book of Mormon Days" Conference every year, where speakers from the spectrum of the Restoration share insights from the Book of Mormon. Even Robert Millet came out one year.

Jim went as far as marrying a Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite) lady. That's dedication! 👩‍❤️‍👨

[randy]

18 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think it's that we choose to find places we have in common and can cooperate, instead of focusing so much on our differences. For example, there is a "Book of Mormon Days" Conference every year, where speakers from the spectrum of the Restoration share insights from the Book of Mormon. Even Robert Millet came out one year.

Jim went as far as marrying a Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite) lady. That's dedication! 👩‍❤️‍👨

I just finished most of the video you shared with me.  I enjoyed it, however, I must say....that what Patrick shared is pretty much what the RLDS/Restoration Branches have always said...namely "they are waiting for the Lord to come set the Church in order".  As LDS, that position is a non-starter due to the fact that the LDS church..since day one April 6th, 1830 has continued to grow and execute the mandate given it by the Lord.  What Patrick is saying, without saying it in the video is that the JCRB are waiting for the Lord to either  1) through divine manifestation, show the LDS people that the LDS church is NOT the Lords only true and living church, thereby setting the stage for the "new reorganization",   or 2) they are waiting on the Lord to show them how to organize with a Prophet.   If the LDS faithful will remember anything from the past two days...its this, the Lords Prophet declared boldly that the House of the Lord and the covenants we make therein, bind us to our Heavenly Father.  Also that the keys necessary to direct the gathering of Israel and administrating the ordinances necessary for salvation are only found in the LDS Church.    So, all that being said, Patrick's desire and hope, albeit sincere....is not going to happen in the way he suspects or hopes it will.   As I said above, sincerely....the way this unification and oneness will occur is by individuals embracing the fullness of the gospel as its found in the LDS church.

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 minutes ago, randy said:

I just finished most of the video you shared with me.  I enjoyed it, however, I must say....that what Patrick shared is pretty much what the RLDS/Restoration Branches have always said...namely "they are waiting for the Lord to come set the Church in order".  As LDS, that position is a non-starter due to the fact that the LDS church..since day one April 6th, 1830 has continued to grow and execute the mandate given it by the Lord.  What Patrick is saying, without saying it in the video is that the JCRB are waiting for the Lord to either  1) through divine manifestation, show the LDS people that the LDS church is NOT the Lords only true and living church, thereby setting the stage for the "new reorganization",   or 2) they are waiting on the Lord to show them how to organize with a Prophet.   If the LDS faithful will remember anything from the past two days...its this, the Lords Prophet declared boldly that the House of the Lord and the covenants we make therein, bind us to our Heavenly Father.  Also that the keys necessary to direct the gathering of Israel and administrating the ordinances necessary for salvation are only found in the LDS Church.    So, all that being said, Patrick's desire and hope, albeit sincere....is not going to happen in the way he suspects or hopes it will.   As I said above, sincerely....the way this unification and oneness will occur is by individuals embracing the fullness of the gospel as its found in the LDS church.

I agree.

But progress is being made.

Baby steps, brother.

[randy]

11 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I agree.

But progress is being made.

Baby steps, brother.

True enough....but it's difficult to watch good and wonderful people languish in a hopeless condition as they wait for something thats not going to happen ie; some sort of hybrid Restoration Church that the Lord will bring about.  They are good people, we could sure use their strength and faith to help bring to pass all the blessings that await Independence, Mo!  We need them....and it's frustrating to watch all of those groups watch and wait for something that is already here!  I believe in miracles!

[ZealouslyStriving]

24 minutes ago, randy said:

True enough....but it's difficult to watch good and wonderful people languish in a hopeless condition as they wait for something thats not going to happen ie; some sort of hybrid Restoration Church that the Lord will bring about.  They are good people, we could sure use their strength and faith to help bring to pass all the blessings that await Independence, Mo!  We need them....and it's frustrating to watch all of those groups watch and wait for something that is already here!  I believe in miracles!

I understand. The last part of my "wilderness journey" was among them. They are good, sincere people and I believe the Lord is using them (esp. the JCRB) for a purpose known to him. They are becoming more and more open to correction. I pray regularly that they will be fully converted and bring their gifts, talents, and testimonies to the fullness of the Lord's latter-day work.

[randy]

23 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I understand. The last part of my "wilderness journey" was among them. They are good, sincere people and I believe the Lord is using them (esp. the JCRB) for a purpose known to him. They are becoming more and more open to correction. I pray regularly that they will be fully converted and bring their gifts, talents, and testimonies to the fullness of the Lord's latter-day work.

Amen brother!   Say...do you live in Independence?

[ZealouslyStriving]

Just now, randy said:

Amen brother!   Say...do you live in Independence?

Not anymore... Long sad story.

[randy]

Dang it....I was gonna take ya out for lunch!

[ZealouslyStriving]

17 minutes ago, randy said:

Dang it....I was gonna take ya out for lunch!

Thanks for the thought. I never turn down lunch!