Things to Come? 2 Nephi 13:16-26--> D&C 112:23-26?

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

The garment example kinda stinks 🦨 my bad. My point is if there is no standard where we can say " Here, and no further!" - we are danger of being the guy so open minded his brain falls out.🤕

So what's the standard?

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, juliann said:

No. The Bible is talking about current things relevant to them. That is very well established in Biblical scholarship.  Do you really think our prophets consider perfume bottles and bangles to be such a problem for LDS women that they should be made bald as punishment? And all the men killed? Really? 

Are you actually reading my posts?🤔

Scripture is full of types and shadows, and multiple meanings. You know this as a NT scholar.

[juliann]

38 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Sidebar:

Speaking of the NIV- I recall something on BYU where the speaker was going to use a modern translation and he referenced the GH to, I guess, assure everyone it was OK. Did the Church give some recent advice on modern Bible translations?

Read some footnotes on GC talks. Speakers routinely use other translations, although I wouldn't recommend the NIV. We even have a NT translation from a BYU scholar. We can no longer continue to rely solely on a very outdated KJV. We are missing too much and losing contact with the rest of the religious world who don't use it. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

I think everybody is missing my point. I'm debating about whether to continue. This is obviously creating contention, which wasn't my intention. 🎶

I thought it would led to a discussion about latter day prophecy, not women's clothing and third world pollution (which is bad and prophesied also.)

Edited February 29, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Just for clarity, every reference to modesty and women’s clothing in the Bible is a reference to costly apparel not how much they were wearing or what body parts were covered. 

[MustardSeed]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Is examination of Latter-day prophecy and collective self-reflection off-

Edited February 29, 2024 by MustardSeed

[MustardSeed]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Is examination of Latter-day prophecy and collective self-reflection off-

Edited February 29, 2024 by MustardSeed

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Is examination of Latter-day prophecy and collective self-reflection off-topic?

Not at all.  
sometimes it doesn’t feel safe to share opinions with new posters who don’t first share their opinions on their own post.  The way I worded my question was not very inviting.

this is not always the warmest place. 

[juliann]

8 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Are you actually reading my posts?🤔

Scripture is full of types and shadows, and multiple meanings. You know this as a NT scholar.

Um, those verses are in your thread title. The verses you used to demonstrate worldliness that are about haughty women who will have horrid things happen. Yeah, I read it. I was responding to your attempt to read stakes and wards into a verse that is about the ancient world. They wouldn't know wards and stakes from a hole in the ground, let alone write about them. 

[ZealouslyStriving]

28 minutes ago, juliann said:

Read some footnotes on GC talks. Speakers routinely use other translations, although I wouldn't recommend the NIV. We even have a NT translation from a BYU scholar. We can no longer continue to rely solely on a very outdated KJV. We are missing too much and losing contact with the rest of the religious world who don't use it. 

  I read the footnotes 👍

Edited February 29, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[ZealouslyStriving]

7 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Not at all.  
sometimes it doesn’t feel safe to share opinions with new posters who don’t first share their opinions on their own post.  The way I worded my question was not very inviting.

this is not always the warmest place. 

Third times a charm 😁

[ZealouslyStriving]

33 minutes ago, juliann said:

No. The Bible is talking about current things relevant to them. That is very well established in Biblical scholarship.  Do you really think our prophets consider perfume bottles and bangles to be such a problem for LDS women that they should be made bald as punishment? And all the men killed? Really? 

Really? From Scripture+ :

"The Daughters of Zion Are Lifted Up in Pride (Read it from ScripturePlus App)

"The daughters of Zion can symbolize members of the church who are in the covenant with God, regardless of gender. David Seeley wrote an article in the book entitled, Isaiah in the Book of Mormon, explaining that the main lesson we learn from the Isaiah chapters in the Book of Mormon is to avoid haughtiness and pride manifested in every imaginable way. Isaiah was warning the people of his day. You would think we would get the message—it is still pertinent. Further Reading 
 David Rolph Seely, "Nephi's Use of Isaiah 2–14 in 2 Nephi 12–30" in Isaiah in the Book of Mormon, ed. Donald W. Parry and John W. Welch (Provo, UT: FARMS, 1998), 156–164, esp. 164: "Isaiah looks into the future and sees the destruction of a series of nations and peoples, and in each case he cites pride as the cause of their rejection of the Lord and of their eventual scattering and destruction. In his own prophecy about the history of the Jews, Lehites, and gentiles, Nephi also identifies, often in the language of Isaiah, the main challenge that each of these groups faces as pride." 
 Book of Mormon Central, "How Does Nephi Use Isaiah to Teach Us to Avoid Pride? (2 Nephi 15:21)," KnoWhy 48 (March 7, 2016).

Read more on ScripturePlus App"

Edited February 29, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[CV75]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I believe the verses indicated are linked and foreshadow a continuing slouch towards worldliness among Church members that will result in major consequences. Thoughts?

* I want to copy-paste the verses, but this phone and I have a difficult relationship 💔*

I think the Lord speaks through the living prophet concerning the guidance we need to overcome worldliness and navigate the spiritual polarization in the world around us that has become so evident as time rolls on. The consequences of our choices will certainly result according to the Lord's timing. He will not let any individual or collective pride get in the way of His Second Coming.

Perhaps we might treat the members' worldliness we see today with the same charity and grace with which we treat the fallibility assigned to the saints and their leaders of yesteryear on various issues. We do not need to partake in worldiness, but we nevertheless need to charitably serve as good examples and learn from our and others' growth process.

Edited February 29, 2024 by CV75

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

I think the Lord speaks through the living prophet concerning the guidance we need to overcome worldliness and navigate the spiritual polarization in the world around us that has become so evident as time rolls on. The consequences of our choices will certainly result according to the Lord's timing. He will not let any individual or collective pride get in the way of His Second Coming.

Perhaps we might treat the members' worldliness we see today with the same charity and grace with which we treat the fallibility assigned to the saints and their leaders of yesteryear on various issues. We do not need to partake in worldiness, but we nevertheless need to charitably serve as good examples and learn from our and others' growth process.

I've said that same thing over the last couple of days. 😩 Ugh. Is there some way I can lock this topic since I started it? 😞

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

You choosing a verse that focuses on women’s apparel as signs of end times is just a bit odd, imo, rather than selfishness, neglect of the poor, materialism, willingness to go to war, rejection of God, etc.

Absolutely a good question!

[ZealouslyStriving]

After this debacle I'm going to have to crack open a cold one I bought today:

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

Absolutely a good question!

Which I answered. 😢

[ZealouslyStriving]

Just now, ZealouslyStriving said:

Which I answered. 😢

With explanations and pictures...

[CV75]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I know there has been a few times on BYUTv that I have raised an eyebrow. 🤨 I am curious of the experiences of others. I have been out of the loop for quite a while and only started attending a Ward 2 weeks ago. 

Can prophecies of judgement apply to the Church members as a whole and not just individually?

I think the Lord always judges us individually, but when a large number of individuals in a community receive His judgement it may be misinterpreted as collective judgement.

[juliann]

27 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Really? From Scripture+

"The Daughters of Zion Are Lifted Up in Pride (Read it from ScripturePlus App)

"The daughters of Zion can symbolize members of the church who are in the covenant with God, regardless of gender. David Seeley wrote an article in the book entitled, Isaiah in the Book of Mormon, explaining that the main lesson we learn from the Isaiah chapters in the Book of Mormon is to avoid haughtiness and pride manifested in every imaginable way. Isaiah was warning the people of his day. You would think we would get the message—it is still pertinent. Further Reading 
 David Rolph Seely, "Nephi's Use of Isaiah 2–14 in 2 Nephi 12–30" in Isaiah in the Book of Mormon, ed. Donald W. Parry and John W. Welch (Provo, UT: FARMS, 1998), 156–164, esp. 164: "Isaiah looks into the future and sees the destruction of a series of nations and peoples, and in each case he cites pride as the cause of their rejection of the Lord and of their eventual scattering and destruction. In his own prophecy about the history of the Jews, Lehites, and gentiles, Nephi also identifies, often in the language of Isaiah, the main challenge that each of these groups faces as pride." 
 Book of Mormon Central, "How Does Nephi Use Isaiah to Teach Us to Avoid Pride? (2 Nephi 15:21)," KnoWhy 48 (March 7, 2016).

Read more on ScripturePlus App"

The phrase in red is what I said in response to you saying it could be referring to wards and stakes. If you look here https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 3&version=NIV  the chapter heading says, judgment on Jerusalem and Judah. Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction by Boadt describes the first 12 chapters of Isaiah as "Oracles against Judah, mostly from Isaiah's early years." p 325. 

Yes, you or others can read more into a judgment based on contemporary events but that is not what the OT itself is saying or doing. If you notice in the Seely quote, you will note he is blaming pride resulting in a rejection of the Lord, a universal trait,  not bangles and worldly ways. Isolating a pericope demonizing women will not be welcomed as an indictment of modern LDS women being "worldly," especially when you have not defined wordly. Until you define your words, this thread will be all over the place. As for "The daughters of Zion can symbolize members of the church who are in the covenant with God, regardless of gender.   it can be made to symbolize whatever someone wants which IMO is a sort of apologetic for some misogynist verse. And we are still left with the OT's actual meaning. So why use it all to make a point which can be made in a myriad of other ways with other verses? 

I really appreciate you using documentation. Thank you. 

Edited February 29, 2024 by juliann

[ZealouslyStriving]

Just now, juliann said:

The phrase in red is what I said in response to you saying it could be referring to wards and stakes. If you look here https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah 3&version=NIV  the chapter heading says, judgment on Jerusalem and Judah. Reading the Old Testament: An Introduction by Boadt describes the first 12 chapters of Isaiah as "Oracles against Judah, mostly from Isaiah's early years." p 325. 

Yes, you or others can read more into a judgment based on contemporary events but that is not what the OT itself is saying or doing. If you notice in the Seely quote, you will note he is blaming pride resulting in a rejection of the Lord, a universal trait,  not bangles and worldly ways. Isolating a pericope demonizing women will not be welcomed as an indictment of modern LDS women being "worldly," especially when you have not defined wordly. Until you define your words, this thread will be all over the place. 

I really appreciate you using documentation. Thank you. 

Nevermind.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

When do the standard we are adopting begin to fall outside of scriptural standards? Will sleeveless and briefs garments one day be acceptable, for example? What would be the line?

I think that whatever the living prophet determines to be the outward expression of an inner commitment is valid. Hypotheticals don't count in my book but fundamental principles do. This helps me balance my personal comfort level and bias with tolerance with keeping the covenants and a developing relationship with God.

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

I think that whatever the living prophet determines to be the outward expression of an inner commitment is valid. Hypotheticals don't count in my book but fundamental principles do. This helps me balance my personal comfort level and bias with tolerance with keeping the covenants and a developing relationship with God.

Keep reading... I acknowledged it was a poor example.

[ZealouslyStriving]

Well, I've learned what topic not to broach in here. 😐

[juliann]

3 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Well, I've learned what topic not to broach in here. 😐

It's not the topic, it is the approach.  Telling Mormons that they are becoming "worldly" and facing retribution is a little inflammatory if not approached carefully.  A misogynist scripture might not be the best way...

The only way we found to control attackers from the very early days of the board was to demand documentation. That means you will have to carefully define the meaning you are applying to words or clarification if asked. You did get swarmed, however. Some of your later posts were downright cute and I enjoy your sense of humor. 

Get a feel for the board and its posters. (And I'm not around much usually.)