How do you balance your spiritual, religious, philosophical and political (gasp) beliefs?

[Stargazer]

14 minutes ago, Calm said:

This part of it is a morality question, imo.  Unless you believe the transcript is fake where he is bragging about trying to get a married woman to sleep with him and what is sexual assault without consent…

Ok, going against my own determination to stay out of it, I will say only that a personally immoral person with good policies is to be preferred over a personally moral person with bad policies. A certain European dictator whom I will not name was as personally moral as we would want any ruler to be, loved animals, and not only was he a vegetarian, he also built some very nice freeways. Yet what came of this personally moral man?

Note also that out of the vast majority of his predecessors and successors, George III was an exception: a moral man who loved his wife deeply and was faithful to her. Yet he was as tyrannical as the system of laws in the United Kingdom permitted him to be. And so we rebelled against him, didn't we? If personal morality was all that important, we should have been happy to have him as our king.

Edited January 19, 2024 by Stargazer
Fixing a bunch of stuff

[mfbukowski]

26 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Sorry, it's behind a paywall and I've already used up my freebie limit for the Times.

But I believe I've seen that transcript, if it's the one I think it is. 

I'd rather not continue to debate this publicly, since it's political and highly divisive. I've said my piece on the subject.

I think that was the Billy Bush conversation that got him in trouble, about grabbing women.

Don't waste your last freebie if you have heard it already....

[pogi]

30 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

a personally immoral person with good policies is to be preferred over a personally moral person with bad policies.

There are times when morality is more important than policy.  The President of the US has very little power in terms of policy making, honestly.   

When an individual is complicit in attempting to forcefully overturn the vote and voice of the people through deceit and fake electors, disregarding legal processes and the decisions of the courts after all their lawsuits failed to show any fraud or illegal voting that would overturn the election.  Instead, they got hit with major lawsuits for lying about voting machines etc.    They do have incredible influence on the tone of the country in inciting violence, hatred, dehumanizing any opposition, and fighting to overthrow the government through lies, violence and deceit though.  

Quote

The letter... encourages members to vote for candidates demonstrating integrity, compassion, and service to others regardless of party affiliation, and cautions Church members against straight-ticket voting.

https://www.ldsliving.com/has-the-churchs-new-political-neutrality-and-voting-letter-been-read-in-your-ward-yet-heres-what-it-says/s/11619

Quote

8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.

9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.

10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.

11 And I give unto you a commandment, that ye shall forsake all evil and cleave unto all good, that ye shall live by every word which proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God.

D&C 98

This is scriptural, so I think it is fair game to discuss. 

Edited January 19, 2024 by pogi

[Stargazer]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

When an individual is complicit in attempting to forcefully overturn the vote and voice of the people through deceit and fake electors, disregarding legal processes and the decisions of the courts after all their lawsuits failed to show any fraud or illegal voting that would overturn the election.

Gosh, I said I would stay out of it...

And I will. 

Except to say that you're too eager to believe everything you hear that supports your narrative.

[Tacenda]

44 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I think that was the Billy Bush conversation that got him in trouble, about grabbing women.

Don't waste your last freebie if you have heard it already....

And here we are.

[Calm]

56 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Yet what came of this personally moral man?

Personal morality is more than chastity.

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

personal morality was all that important, we should have been happy to have him as our king.

I wasn’t arguing anyone should have been rejected purely on morality issues.  I agree that someone who is chaste, charitable and doing al kinds of good can still be an incompetent leader who might cause excessive harm and therefore a competent jerk would possibly be preferable.

But I am wondering about what appeared to me an intentional whitewashing of immoral behaviour, a choice to diminish the immorality of certain behaviours for some reason rather than just taking the public position of “I had to take a barf bag in with me for when I voted, but I was more concerned that ….. didn’t happen to the country than having a dirtbag in office” or some variation of that theme.  I have seen it from people I have been very surprised to see it from and wonder about why they feel they need to do so.

[pogi]

49 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Except to say that you're too eager to believe everything you hear that supports your narrative.

The election wasn't stolen dude, despite the dangerous lies that Trump continues to spew about it.  One of us is deceived, that's for sure. 

Edited January 19, 2024 by pogi

[Stargazer]

42 minutes ago, Calm said:

Personal morality is more than chastity.

Yes, it is. And what element of personal morality did that NY Times transcript cover again? Chastity, I think it was.

Edited January 20, 2024 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

We can't tuck this stuff under a rug and pretend like it never happened.  Especially when he is still claiming the election was stolen.   Perhaps you are the one that is too eager to believe that narrative that it was stolen, maybe?  If you don't believe the election was stolen, then I can't understand how anyone could support such dangerous lies that threatens our democracy.  That is dangerous stuff to be playing with.  No bueno for America. 

And what was Hillary claiming after the 2016 election? She couldn't have claimed that the election was stolen, could she?

And just what was all that sweeping under the rug of the Hunter Biden laptop and all its implications? How many people said they would have voted differently if they had heard about it -- but didn't because the mainstream media was suppressing the information? Remember the "October Surprise" of the 1980 election? When it was claimed (by Democrats) that the Reagan campaign had made a secret deal with the Iranian government whereby the Iranians would hold the hostages until after Reagan was elected and inaugurated? And that is why Carter lost, because the hostages were still being held on his watch?

What really stinks is when one side is so desperate to stay in power that they say the results of an election threatens our democracy. And then the police power is enlisted in order to bury the opposition in indictments? Sounds like the kind of thing Putin does. Trump talked a lot about putting Hillary in jail, so I guess it's the Democrats' turn, after all. But did he even try to put her in jail? Not that I remember.

But you keep believin'. 

 

[pogi]

17 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

And what was Hillary claiming after the 2016 election? She couldn't have claimed that the election was stolen, could she?

And just what was all that sweeping under the rug of the Hunter Biden laptop and all its implications? How many people said they would have voted differently if they had heard about it -- but didn't because the mainstream media was suppressing the information? Remember the "October Surprise" of the 1980 election? When it was claimed (by Democrats) that the Reagan campaign had made a secret deal with the Iranian government whereby the Iranians would hold the hostages until after Reagan was elected and inaugurated? And that is why Carter lost, because the hostages were still being held on his watch?

What really stinks is when one side is so desperate to stay in power that they say the results of an election threatens our democracy. And then the police power is enlisted in order to bury the opposition in indictments? Sounds like the kind of thing Putin does. Trump talked a lot about putting Hillary in jail, so I guess it's the Democrats' turn, after all. But did he even try to put her in jail? Not that I remember.

But you keep believin'. 

 

Whataboutism.  I didn’t vote for Hillary.  She is not running for president.  Neither is Hunter, FYI

This is not about sides.  This is about the moral integrity of those running for President.  I would happily vote for a republican other than Trump.  I would happily vote for someone other than Biden too.

There is only one person running for president currently who tried to overthrow the government and still spews dangerous lies about it.  He will do it again bro.  I’ve said my piece.  

Morality and integrity in the peaceful transfer of power are the only things that will preserve our democracy long term.  Policies aren’t worth that price.

Edited January 20, 2024 by pogi

[Stargazer]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have seen it from people I have been very surprised to see it from and wonder about why they feel they need to do so.

OK, let's remove party politics from it for a moment.

Leaving aside his personal morality, what moral positions does Biden support? Does he support abortion for all nine months of a pregnancy? How many genders do he and his policy makers believe there are? Do they wish to make it a criminal offense to deliberately misgender someone, like Canada does? Do they feel that biological men should be permitted to pretend they're women to compete against women in sports? How about sending biological men pretending to be women into women's prisons? Should non-violent crimes such as shoplifting and simple theft be no longer pursued as crimes in the courts? Should the national border be allowed to become more of a guideline than a rule? Judging by what's going on in this country, Biden's cool with all of it. If one is cool with all that, then Biden's your man. 

[Calm]

Just now, Stargazer said:

OK, let's remove party politics from it for a moment.

Leaving aside his personal morality, what moral positions does Biden support? Does he support abortion for all nine months of a pregnancy? How many genders do he and his policy makers believe there are? Do they wish to make it a criminal offense to deliberately misgender someone, like Canada does? Do they feel that biological men should be permitted to pretend they're women to compete against women in sports? How about sending biological men pretending to be women into women's prisons? Should non-violent crimes such as shoplifting and simple theft be no longer pursued as crimes in the courts? Should the national border be allowed to become more of a guideline than a rule? Judging by what's going on in this country, Biden's cool with all of it. If one is cool with all that, then Biden's your man. 

Oh man, this could go on forever given the slate of politicians we currently have.

[Stargazer]

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

Whataboutism.  I didn’t vote for Hillary.  She is not running for president.  Neither is Hunter, FYI

No, it's not whataboutism. But if it's heinous for Trump to claim his election was stolen (and it's you who brought it up, not me, as if it were important), then it's heinous for Hillary. Good for goose? Then good for gander. And I don't care who you voted for. You voted for whom you felt was the best candidate, which is your right.

It's about whether or not Joe Biden has participated in bribery and influence peddling. You haven't the vaguest idea what was found on that laptop, I'd guess. Do you not remember that Biden boasted rather openly in an interview during his vice presidency that he threatened a cutoff of a billion dollars in financial aid to Ukraine unless the justice department leader in Ukraine was stopped from investigating fraud in energy company Burisma, in which his son Hunter was inexplicably (despite having no qualifications whatsoever) a director? And subsequently, as Biden crowed, the Ukraine government fired the person leading the investigation, thus terminating it. What a coincidence! Except Biden acted like it was his doing that caused it. There are other instances in which "the Big Guy" got a cut of the action. But nevermind all that, because Orange Man Bad.

I wanted Vivek Ramaswamy to win the Republican nomination. Not Trump. But Trump is all I got.

I wonder how much longer before Nemesis shuts this down. 

Edited January 20, 2024 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

Oh man, this could go on forever given the slate of politicians we currently have.

Yep. Christ cannot return soon enough.

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

No, it's not whataboutism. But if it's heinous for Trump to claim his election was stolen (and it's you who brought it up as if it were important), then it's heinous for Hillary. Good for goose? Then good for gander. And I don't care who you voted for. You voted for whom you felt was the best candidate, which is your right.

It's about whether or not Joe Biden has participated in bribery and influence peddling. You haven't the vaguest idea what was found on that laptop, I'd guess. Do you not remember that Biden boasted rather openly in an interview during his vice presidency that he threatened a cutoff of a billion dollars in financial aid to Ukraine unless the justice department leader in Ukraine was stopped from investigating fraud in energy company Burisma, in which his son Hunter was inexplicably (despite having no qualifications whatsoever) a director? And subsequently, as Biden crowed, the Ukraine government fired the person leading the investigation, thus terminating it. What a coincidence! Except Biden acted like it was his doing that caused it. There are other instances in which "the Big Guy" got a cut of the action. But nevermind all that, because Orange Man Bad.

I wanted Vivek Ramaswamy to win the Republican nomination. Not Trump. But Trump is all I got.

I wonder how much longer before Nemesis shuts this down. 

I’ve said my piece.  I will simply note that I have never defended anything that Hillary has said or done.  So no, not good for the goose or gander.  
It is clear that your narrative about Trump antagonists is really skewed.

I am NOT a democrat.  I am not a fan of Hillary or Biden.

Edited January 20, 2024 by pogi