Entering the Presence of the Divine

[manol]

In another thread, @Dario_M said he was trying to figure out “how to” connect with the Holy Spirit. Here is a link to my post in that thread which Dario subsequently replied to:

My post at that link is arguably an introduction to this post; it looks like clicking the arrow in the upper-right-hand corner will take you there.

In this post I've assembled some specific thoughts on the subject.  Since I'm no longer LDS, take all of this with as many grains of salt as needed.  The only claim I make is that the approach described herein seems to work for me.

The process I will describe has two steps, with the first taking considerably longer to explain than the second. Please consider all of the following to be “in my opinion”:

The Holy Spirit is present with or without our awareness, and we can connect with the Holy Spirit by aligning our spirit, our awareness, our energy, our consciousness, to a suitably high spritual energy level. This can be thought of as “tuning our radio” to the station of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes in the moment we cannot get all the way there, but we can always make worthwhile progress.

The KEY to aligning with or attuning to the Holy Spirit is to deliberately direct or re-direct our THOUGHTS.

Our thoughts are like the rudder of a ship. If we want to change the direction of our ship, we must first change the alignment of our rudder, and then our ship will come into alignment to our new direction. So if we want our “ship” to be aligned to the Holy Spirit, we must consciously and deliberately and consistently change the alignment of our thoughts accordingly.

One way of doing so is to use what might be called “rudder thoughts”. Imo it is useful to come up with one (or more) brief “rudder thought” in advance so we can begin to acclimate to it and so that we have it handy. We want to choose a thought from among the highest we can conceive of and aspire to at this point in time. This may well be a thought that we do not yet fully believe, which is to be expected because our “ship” is not yet aligned to it.

Here are a few possible “rudder thoughts”:

“God is love, and I am made in the image of God; therefore, I too am love.”

“Perfect love casts out fear, and I choose to align with perfect love in all aspects of my life. Where once was fear, there now is love.”

“I am filled with the Pure Love of Christ. I see everyone and everything through the eyes of Christ.”

The exact words are not particularly important. What IS important, and this is the part that is actually transformational, is the spiritual energy the words INVITE, and our job includes being deliberately receptive to that energy. Each time we “go there” by thinking our rudder thought and FEELING the energy that it invites, we are making progress toward re-aligning our spirit, our awareness, our energy, our consciousness, to this new and better direction. The effect is cumulative, so every effort we make is progress.

Now there will be times when circumstances are particularly discouraging, and in a sense this is actually an opportunity because when we can choose light and love (whether in this way or in some other) in the face of darkness or fear or any other inhibitions, we make enormous progress even if such is not apparent to us in the moment. And if we are unable to do so, it is not held against us. We simply re-align our rudder, our thoughts, once we realize that we need to, without wasting time berating ourselves.

Rudder thoughts can change or evolve or be replaced as one feels inclined to. They can be a song or a hymn or a prayer or a scripture or a statement. And there may come a time when a person can align their consciousness to the energy the rudder thought invites without the intermediary of words, tuning directly into that higher energy “radio station” just by holding the INTENTION of doing so.

In my opinion one way to use rudder thoughts is to spend time contemplating them and letting them have their effect on us fairly often, perhaps once or twice a day; to try to remember to mentally run through them when we have a spare moment here and there; to generally try to acclimate oneself to them; and to use them to re-direct our attention when we find ourselves in negative thoughts or when we notice that our spiritual energy is down.

One thing to be aware of is that negative thoughts are barriers between oneself and God, between oneself and God's love, between oneself and Christ, and between oneself and the Holy Spirit. We cannot be simultaneously tuned-in to a radio station of negativity and tuned-in to the radio station of communion with the Holy Spirit. And it doesn't matter how “justifed” those negative thoughts may be, the effect of “tuning in” to them is that we are not “tuned in” to the Divine. By way of example, for those of you who have been through the Temple, recall that only the best of feelings are to be present in the prayer circle.

Having, to the best of one's ability, aligned oneself with the highest spiritual energy or consciousness one can aspire to in the moment, it is time for the second step of the process: Entering the Presence of the Divine. Again, we use directed intention to do this. We might announce to ourselves something like:

“I am in the Presence of the Divine.”

And we receive that Presence.

In a way this is analogous to entering the Celestial Room in the Temple. Except that we won't need to hurry off to make room for the next group; we can hang out in the Presence of the Divine for as long as we wish.

In my opinion.

I welcome comments and invite anyone, especially those with a more mainstream LDS paradigm, to post any thoughts they have that might assist Dario in his pursuit of “how to” connect with the Holy Spirit. I have family visiting this week so my replies may be slow.

Edited September 10, 2023 by manol

[CV75]

9 minutes ago, manol said:

In another thread, @Dario_M said he was trying to figure out “how to” connect with the Holy Spirit. Here is a link to my post in that thread which Dario subsequently replied to:

My post at that link is arguably an introduction to this post; it looks like clicking the arrow in the upper-right-hand corner will take you there.

In this post I've assembled some specific thoughts on the subject.  Since I'm no longer LDS, take all of this with as many grains of salt as needed.  The only claim I make is that the approach described herein seems to work for me.

The process I will describe has two steps, with the first taking considerably longer than the second. Please consider all of the following to be “in my opinion”:

The Holy Spirit is present with or without our awareness, and we can connect with the Holy Spirit by aligning our spirit, our awareness, our energy, our consciousness, to a suitably high spritual energy level. This can be thought of as “tuning our radio” to the station of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes in the moment we cannot get all the way there, but we can always make worthwhile progress.

The KEY to aligning with or attuning to the Holy Spirit is to deliberately direct or re-direct our THOUGHTS.

Our thoughts are like the rudder of a ship. If we want to change the direction of our ship, we must first change the alignment of our rudder, and then our ship will come into alignment to our new direction. So if we want our “ship” to be aligned to the Holy Spirit, we must consciously and deliberately and consistently change the alignment of our thoughts accordingly.

One way of doing so is to use what might be called “rudder thoughts”. Imo it is useful to come up with one (or more) brief “rudder thoughts” in advance so we can begin to acclimate to it and so that we have it handy. We want to choose a thought from among the highest we can conceive of and aspire to at this point in time. This may well be a thought that we do not yet fully believe, which is to be expected because our “ship” is not yet aligned to it.

Here are a few possible “rudder thoughts”:

“God is love, and I am made in the image of God; therefore, I too am love.”

“Perfect love casts out fear, and I choose to align with perfect love in all aspects of my life. Where once was fear, there now is love.”

“I am filled with the Pure Love of Christ. I see everyone and everything through the eyes of Christ.”

The exact words are not particularly important. What IS important, and this is the part that is actually transformational, is the spiritual energy the words INVITE, and our job includes being deliberately receptive to that energy. Each time we “go there” by thinking our rudder thought and FEELING the energy that it invites, we are making progress toward re-aligning our spirit, our awareness, our energy, our consciousness, to this new and better direction. The effect is cumulative, so every effort we make is progress.

Now there will be times when circumstances are particularly discouraging, and in a sense this is actually an opportunity because when we can choose light and love (whether in this way or in some other) in the face of darkness or fear or any other inhibitions, we make enormous progress even if such is not apparent to us in the moment. And if we are unable to do so, it is not held against us. We simply re-align our rudder, our thoughts, once we realize that we need to, without wasting time berating ourselves.

Rudder thoughts can change or evolve or be replaced as one feels inclined to. They can be a song or a hymn or a prayer or a scripture or a statement. And there may come a time when a person can align their consciousness to the energy the rudder thought invites without the intermediary of words, tuning directly into that higher energy “radio station” just by holding the INTENTION of doing so.

In my opinion one way to use rudder thoughts is to spend time contemplating them and letting them have their effect on us fairly often, perhaps once or twice a day; to try to remember to mentally run through them when we have a spare moment here and there; to generally try to acclimate oneself to them; and to use them to re-direct our attention when we find ourselves in negative thoughts or when we notice that our spiritual energy is down.

One thing to be aware of is that negative thoughts are barriers between oneself and God, between oneself and God's love, between oneself and Christ, and between oneself and the Holy Spirit. We cannot be simultaneously tuned-in to a radio station of negativity and tuned-in to the radio station of communion with the Holy Spirit. And it doesn't matter how “justifed” those negative thoughts may be, the effect of “tuning in” to them is that we are not “tuned in” to the Divine. By way of example, for those of you who have been through the Temple, recall that only the best of feelings are to be present in the prayer circle.

Having, to the best of one's ability, aligned oneself with the highest spiritual energy or consciousness one can aspire to in the moment, it is time for the second step of the process: Entering the Presence of the Divine. Again, we use directed intention to do this. We might announce to ourselves something like:

“I am in the Presence of the Divine.”

And we receive that Presence.

In a way this is analogous to entering the Celestial Room in the Temple. Except that we won't need to hurry off to make room for the next group; we can hang out in the Presence of the Divine for as long as we wish.

In my opinion.

I welcome comments and invite anyone, especially those with a more mainstream LDS paradigm, to post any thoughts they have that might assist Dario in his pursuit of “how to” connect with the Holy Spirit. I have family visiting this week so my replies may be slow.

I would say when a person is angry and wants to take revenge, the Holy Spirit's role is to help them remember the Lord and with that, desire to do better. With that desire, the Holy Spirit will be the Lord's agent in answering a prayer for help concerning feelings and behavior. The power of the Holy Ghost can help the person without the gift of the Holy Ghost as well as the person with the gift. Baptized members are encouraged to partake of the sacrament (in every sense of the word) so that they remember and remain receptive to this role.

[Dario_M]

9 hours ago, manol said:

In another thread, @Dario_M said he was trying to figure out “how to” connect with the Holy Spirit. Here is a link to my post in that thread which Dario subsequently replied to:

My post at that link is arguably an introduction to this post; it looks like clicking the arrow in the upper-right-hand corner will take you there.

In this post I've assembled some specific thoughts on the subject.  Since I'm no longer LDS, take all of this with as many grains of salt as needed.  The only claim I make is that the approach described herein seems to work for me.

The process I will describe has two steps, with the first taking considerably longer to explain than the second. Please consider all of the following to be “in my opinion”:

The Holy Spirit is present with or without our awareness, and we can connect with the Holy Spirit by aligning our spirit, our awareness, our energy, our consciousness, to a suitably high spritual energy level. This can be thought of as “tuning our radio” to the station of the Holy Spirit. Sometimes in the moment we cannot get all the way there, but we can always make worthwhile progress.

The KEY to aligning with or attuning to the Holy Spirit is to deliberately direct or re-direct our THOUGHTS.

Our thoughts are like the rudder of a ship. If we want to change the direction of our ship, we must first change the alignment of our rudder, and then our ship will come into alignment to our new direction. So if we want our “ship” to be aligned to the Holy Spirit, we must consciously and deliberately and consistently change the alignment of our thoughts accordingly.

One way of doing so is to use what might be called “rudder thoughts”. Imo it is useful to come up with one (or more) brief “rudder thought” in advance so we can begin to acclimate to it and so that we have it handy. We want to choose a thought from among the highest we can conceive of and aspire to at this point in time. This may well be a thought that we do not yet fully believe, which is to be expected because our “ship” is not yet aligned to it.

Here are a few possible “rudder thoughts”:

“God is love, and I am made in the image of God; therefore, I too am love.”

“Perfect love casts out fear, and I choose to align with perfect love in all aspects of my life. Where once was fear, there now is love.”

“I am filled with the Pure Love of Christ. I see everyone and everything through the eyes of Christ.”

The exact words are not particularly important. What IS important, and this is the part that is actually transformational, is the spiritual energy the words INVITE, and our job includes being deliberately receptive to that energy. Each time we “go there” by thinking our rudder thought and FEELING the energy that it invites, we are making progress toward re-aligning our spirit, our awareness, our energy, our consciousness, to this new and better direction. The effect is cumulative, so every effort we make is progress.

Now there will be times when circumstances are particularly discouraging, and in a sense this is actually an opportunity because when we can choose light and love (whether in this way or in some other) in the face of darkness or fear or any other inhibitions, we make enormous progress even if such is not apparent to us in the moment. And if we are unable to do so, it is not held against us. We simply re-align our rudder, our thoughts, once we realize that we need to, without wasting time berating ourselves.

Rudder thoughts can change or evolve or be replaced as one feels inclined to. They can be a song or a hymn or a prayer or a scripture or a statement. And there may come a time when a person can align their consciousness to the energy the rudder thought invites without the intermediary of words, tuning directly into that higher energy “radio station” just by holding the INTENTION of doing so.

In my opinion one way to use rudder thoughts is to spend time contemplating them and letting them have their effect on us fairly often, perhaps once or twice a day; to try to remember to mentally run through them when we have a spare moment here and there; to generally try to acclimate oneself to them; and to use them to re-direct our attention when we find ourselves in negative thoughts or when we notice that our spiritual energy is down.

One thing to be aware of is that negative thoughts are barriers between oneself and God, between oneself and God's love, between oneself and Christ, and between oneself and the Holy Spirit. We cannot be simultaneously tuned-in to a radio station of negativity and tuned-in to the radio station of communion with the Holy Spirit. And it doesn't matter how “justifed” those negative thoughts may be, the effect of “tuning in” to them is that we are not “tuned in” to the Divine. By way of example, for those of you who have been through the Temple, recall that only the best of feelings are to be present in the prayer circle.

Having, to the best of one's ability, aligned oneself with the highest spiritual energy or consciousness one can aspire to in the moment, it is time for the second step of the process: Entering the Presence of the Divine. Again, we use directed intention to do this. We might announce to ourselves something like:

“I am in the Presence of the Divine.”

And we receive that Presence.

In a way this is analogous to entering the Celestial Room in the Temple. Except that we won't need to hurry off to make room for the next group; we can hang out in the Presence of the Divine for as long as we wish.

In my opinion.

I welcome comments and invite anyone, especially those with a more mainstream LDS paradigm, to post any thoughts they have that might assist Dario in his pursuit of “how to” connect with the Holy Spirit. I have family visiting this week so my replies may be slow.

Ooh but i believe you. Don't worrie. Salt is not nessasary haha. 

[Navidad]

I wonder if we sometimes ignore the fact that both the Old Testament and the New indicate that the Holy Spirit is the force or presence of God to and in humans? Asking about the gender of the Holy Spirit is perhaps like asking about the gender of the wind, running water, flames, love, compassion, etc.? I resist speculation when it comes to the Spirit, but its seems to me when we "practice the presence of God" in our lives a la Brother Lawrence or John of the Cross, we are talking about practicing the presence of God through God's power, force, and authority in the presence of the Spirit. Psalm 139 is a wonderful OT reference to the Holy Spirit. It is full of "you" when referring to the Spirit of God - the Psalmist is talking to God directly and uses the term you, not he or she or even it. Methinks God in three persons is a metaphor, not meant to describe the nature of the being.

My LDS friends seem to believe that only they practice the presence of God via the force and presence of the Holy Spirit. I cannot fathom that belief in the face of knowing so many non-LDS Christians who consistently practiced and practice the presence and exhibit the impact of the force and being of God in their lives over the last two thousand years and in the prior two thousand years. Christ made it clear He was sending the power, force, and authority of God in the personage or force of the comforter - that presence of God that quiets us at times, motivates us at other times, assures us at other times, enables us at other times. That force that was present in the pillar of fire and the column of smoke as well as at Pentecost in a powerful way is God in us, each and every one of us who call Him Father, Lord, and Savior. That is my speculation and belief this early Monday Chihuahua morning. 

[Sara H]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

My LDS friends seem to believe that only they practice the presence of God via the force and presence of the Holy Spirit. I cannot fathom

It is my understanding that you would want for me to be extremely forthright with you about how I perceive our doctrine; with that in mind, here goes. This does not indicate that I agree or disagree with you; rather, I am simply explaining to you how I comprehend our religion. 

We do think that only members of our church, which we define as those who have been baptized by an appropriate authority, and not Christians in general have the constant companionship of the holy spirit. Non-members are permitted to feel the prompting of the holy spirit for a very little length of time, such as while discerning whether or not the church is true; nonetheless, they are not permitted to enjoy the gift of the holy ghost. Therefore, if you think about the person in your life who is the most devout Christian, you will see that they do not have the constant companionship of the holy spirit since they have not been really baptized in accordance with our faith. This is how I grew up believing. I understand how you could feel this is hurtful. 

 

[pogi]

17 hours ago, manol said:

One way of doing so is to use what might be called “rudder thoughts”. Imo it is useful to come up with one (or more) brief “rudder thought” in advance so we can begin to acclimate to it and so that we have it handy. We want to choose a thought from among the highest we can conceive of and aspire to at this point in time. This may well be a thought that we do not yet fully believe, which is to be expected because our “ship” is not yet aligned to it.

I think you touch on an important point here in recognizing that God and His spirit are always present.   We, on the other hand, are not.  I find the daily practice of meditative prayer extremely helpful in becoming present with the Lord and hearing His voice.  It is helpful to set aside our regrets and ruminations of the past and worries about the future and just sit with the Lord in the present, where he resides.  You mention the practice of redirecting our thoughts on a specific theme or idea - that is a lot like what meditative prayer is, except meditation is less about actively "thinking" and more about actively paying attention or "listening".   The Spirit is always there, we just need to learn how to pay attention.  It becomes quickly apparent just how distracted our thoughts are when one sits tries to pay attention to the feelings/presence of the spirit.  Gently redirecting our attention without judgment is really helpful over time at quieting our mind and becoming aware of the Spirit that is ever present.

I like the analogy of tuning into a radio.  One of my favorite Mormon messages plays on that theme:

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by pogi

[manol]

8 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Ooh but i believe you. Don't worrie. Salt is not nessasary haha. 

Thank you Dario.

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

both the Old Testament and the New indicate that the Holy Spirit is the force or presence of God to and in humans

Agreed!

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I think you touch on an important point here in recognizing that God and His spirit are always present.   We, on the other hand, are not. 

Ah, Pogi, I was hoping you would stop in and post!

Ime there is a tendency to see God in the past, and to see God in the future.  Similarly, there is a tendency to see God as far, far away.  But God is HERE.  And God is NOW. 

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I find the daily practice of meditative prayer extremely helpful in becoming present with the Lord and hearing His voice.  It is helpful to set aside our regrets and ruminations of the past and worries about the future and just sit with the Lord in the present, where he resides. 

Yes!!  Imo there is a "place" we can go and experience a little bit of "on earth as it is in heaven", but we have to lay aside attachments, and I didn't want to make my initial post potentially more controversial.  But you expressed the concept BEAUTIFULLY.

1 hour ago, pogi said:

You mention the practice of redirecting our thoughts on a specific theme or idea - that is a lot like what meditative prayer is, except meditation is less about actively "thinking" and more about actively paying attention or "listening".   The Spirit is always there, we just need to learn how to pay attention. [emphasis manol's]

My experience (twenty-something years active LDS and twenty-something years former LDS) has been that the applicable principles are identical whether one is a member or not. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by manol

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Sara H said:

It is my understanding that you would want for me to be extremely forthright with you about how I perceive our doctrine; with that in mind, here goes. This does not indicate that I agree or disagree with you; rather, I am simply explaining to you how I comprehend our religion. 

We do think that only members of our church, which we define as those who have been baptized by an appropriate authority, and not Christians in general have the constant companionship of the holy spirit. Non-members are permitted to feel the prompting of the holy spirit for a very little length of time, such as while discerning whether or not the church is true; nonetheless, they are not permitted to enjoy the gift of the holy ghost. Therefore, if you think about the person in your life who is the most devout Christian, you will see that they do not have the constant companionship of the holy spirit since they have not been really baptized in accordance with our faith. This is how I grew up believing. I understand how you could feel this is hurtful. 

 

You are correct. I absolutely prefer you be forthright in explaining your understanding of LDS doctrine. In this case, I believe that doctrine as you and others express it, to run counter to my lived experience. From all I have observed, the lived experience of the Holy Spirit in the non-LDS Christian and the LDS Christian are identical. Also the writings we have from those of the 15th-19th centuries are identical to those we read today, both in and out of the LDS church. Of course, truth and doctrine are not synonyms. . . Not for any group or individual. Keep on being forthright. I don't have to agree with what is said to up vote it for how it is said. I don't think an up vote is an agreement device as much as it is an appreciation device.

[manol]

1 hour ago, Sara H said:

... This is how I grew up believing...

What you described in your post is how I grew up believing too.

In my opinion, there is a level beyond what is taught in the lesson manuals, where the Spirit does the teaching one-on-one.  I believe this is part of the Plan. 

Ime there is a deep and abiding peace that accompanies expanding one's circle of inclusion to the point where no one is left out.  Ime there is a point at which it's no longer "us" and "them"; instead, there is only "us".

[Sara H]

31 minutes ago, Navidad said:

You are correct. I absolutely prefer you be forthright in explaining your understanding of LDS doctrine. In this case, I believe that doctrine as you and others express it, to run counter to my lived experience. From all I have observed, the lived experience of the Holy Spirit in the non-LDS Christian and the LDS Christian are identical. Also the writings we have from those of the 15th-19th centuries are identical to those we read today, both in and out of the LDS church. Of course, truth and doctrine are not synonyms. . . Not for any group or individual. Keep on being forthright. I don't have to agree with what is said to up vote it for how it is said. I don't think an up vote is an agreement device as much as it is an appreciation device.

I'm just going to explain how it is that we teach people about the Holy Ghost's fellowship. I am not suggesting that either you or I are in the right. Watch this discussion from the first 40 seconds to the first 1:30 minutes, if you have the time. Henry B describes how the continual championship of the Holy Ghost is only available to those who have been baptized as members of our church. 

You can probably tell that I disagree with the majority of my fellow LDS members when they say that we ought to be categorized as Christians. From a personal standpoint, I believe that it is insulting. The Christian religion has a long and illustrious history, and I admire what Christians have accomplished in the years since Christ's death as a result of their faith. However, during the vast bulk of the time that Christians were attempting to figure out what Christianity means, our gospel was hidden from the world. We did not take part in that conversation, and our teaching expresses exactly that when we explain to everyone that our message was hidden from the planet for close to 1800 years. If you don't mind me asking, as a Christian, how do you feel about what Henry has to say in the video? Anyway, thanks for your time. 

 

 

[webbles]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

I wonder if we sometimes ignore the fact that both the Old Testament and the New indicate that the Holy Spirit is the force or presence of God to and in humans? Asking about the gender of the Holy Spirit is perhaps like asking about the gender of the wind, running water, flames, love, compassion, etc.? I resist speculation when it comes to the Spirit, but its seems to me when we "practice the presence of God" in our lives a la Brother Lawrence or John of the Cross, we are talking about practicing the presence of God through God's power, force, and authority in the presence of the Spirit. Psalm 139 is a wonderful OT reference to the Holy Spirit. It is full of "you" when referring to the Spirit of God - the Psalmist is talking to God directly and uses the term you, not he or she or even it. Methinks God in three persons is a metaphor, not meant to describe the nature of the being.

My LDS friends seem to believe that only they practice the presence of God via the force and presence of the Holy Spirit. I cannot fathom that belief in the face of knowing so many non-LDS Christians who consistently practiced and practice the presence and exhibit the impact of the force and being of God in their lives over the last two thousand years and in the prior two thousand years. Christ made it clear He was sending the power, force, and authority of God in the personage or force of the comforter - that presence of God that quiets us at times, motivates us at other times, assures us at other times, enables us at other times. That force that was present in the pillar of fire and the column of smoke as well as at Pentecost in a powerful way is God in us, each and every one of us who call Him Father, Lord, and Savior. That is my speculation and belief this early Monday Chihuahua morning. 

For us, the Holy Ghost is an actual being with a spirit body and He only exists in one place at one time.  He isn't a force.

But, we also talk about the "Light of Christ", the "Manifestation of the Holy Ghost", and the "Gift of the Holy Ghost".  There are other words that interchangeable amongst those but those are the three main separations.

"Light of Christ" is a force/influence/power/energy/etc that can be felt by everyone.  It comes from God and we all have it.

"Manifestation of the Holy Ghost" is when the Holy Ghost manifests Himself to a person to bear record of Christ.  These can happen to everyone as well.  One way I've heard this described is an "ignition of the Light of Christ".  It is when a person feels the truth of things.

"Gift of the Holy Ghost" is when the Holy Ghost becomes a "constant companion".  He will be there to comfort you, help you, teach you, etc.  As long as we are doing our part, He will never leave us alone.

 

So, yes, everyone has the "Light of Christ".  Everyone can receive a "Manifestation of the Holy Ghost".  But not everyone has the "Gift of the Holy Ghost".  I also believe that many non-LDS Christians and even many non-Christians practice the presence and exhibit the impact of the force and being of God in their lives.  That doesn't mean that I believe they have the "Gift of the Holy Ghost" as it is a different thing.

References for the above:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2005/04/the-light-of-christ?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1996/10/always-have-his-spirit?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/light-of-christ?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/holy-ghost?lang=eng

 

[Sara H]

11 minutes ago, webbles said:

He only exists in one place at one time.  He isn't a force

[webbles]

1 minute ago, Sara H said:

How does that say He can be in more than one place at a time?

Also, Joseph Fielding Smith said in Doctrines of Salvation, 1:38

Quote

As a Spirit personage the Holy Ghost has size and dimensions. He does not fill the immensity of space, and cannot be everywhere present in person at the same time. He is also called the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, the Spirit of Truth, and the Comforter

 

[pogi]

9 hours ago, Navidad said:

I wonder if we sometimes ignore the fact that both the Old Testament and the New indicate that the Holy Spirit is the force or presence of God to and in humans? Asking about the gender of the Holy Spirit is perhaps like asking about the gender of the wind, running water, flames, love, compassion, etc.? I resist speculation when it comes to the Spirit, but its seems to me when we "practice the presence of God" in our lives a la Brother Lawrence or John of the Cross, we are talking about practicing the presence of God through God's power, force, and authority in the presence of the Spirit. Psalm 139 is a wonderful OT reference to the Holy Spirit. It is full of "you" when referring to the Spirit of God - the Psalmist is talking to God directly and uses the term you, not he or she or even it. Methinks God in three persons is a metaphor, not meant to describe the nature of the being.

My LDS friends seem to believe that only they practice the presence of God via the force and presence of the Holy Spirit. I cannot fathom that belief in the face of knowing so many non-LDS Christians who consistently practiced and practice the presence and exhibit the impact of the force and being of God in their lives over the last two thousand years and in the prior two thousand years. Christ made it clear He was sending the power, force, and authority of God in the personage or force of the comforter - that presence of God that quiets us at times, motivates us at other times, assures us at other times, enables us at other times. That force that was present in the pillar of fire and the column of smoke as well as at Pentecost in a powerful way is God in us, each and every one of us who call Him Father, Lord, and Savior. That is my speculation and belief this early Monday Chihuahua morning. 

Hi Navidad,

FWIW I don't agree with how many in my church believe and teach about the Holy Ghost.  I think the way some teach it is misleading and can lead to confusion and hurt feelings from non-members.   It gets a little messy because the "Holy Spirit" is a term that is used interchangeably to refer to the Holy Ghost and the light of Christ.  "Spirit of the Lord", "Spirit of Christ", and "Spirit of God" are all terms that are used interchangeably.  I think a lot of confusion arises because of this.  It is my position and belief that the light of Christ (Holy Spirit) is the primary influence of God in our lives - member or not.  It is the medium by which we communicate with the Lord and experience His presence.   

I believe that the role of the Holy Ghost is much more limited.  It is not something that members "always have with them" from 8 years old and onward.   Members are counseled to "receive" the Holy Ghost after baptism.  It is something that we aspire and work towards - and I believe is probably something that we don't attain to fully in this life, kind of like the counsel to "be perfect".     The role of the Holy Ghost is primarily 2-fold - 1) It testifies of the Father and the Son, and 2) it sanctifies/purifies from sin (baptism of fire).  Everything else I primarily attribute to the Holy Spirit, aka light of Christ.   We are also taught that revelation can happen through the Holy Ghost, but we are taught the same thing about the light of Christ.   It is my understanding and belief that the influence that we all primarily feel on a day-to-day basis is that of the light of Christ:

Quote

11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;

12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—

13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things.

44 For you shall ^alive by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God.

45 For the ^aword of the Lord is truth, and whatsoever is truth is ^blight, and whatsoever is light is ^cSpirit, even the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

46 And the ^aSpirit giveth ^blight to ^cevery man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.

47 And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit ^acometh unto God, even the Father.

49 The ^alight shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not; nevertheless, the day shall come when you shall ^bcomprehend even God, being quickened in him and by him.

50 Then shall ye know that ye have ^aseen me, that I am, and that I am the true ^blight that is in you, and that you are in me; otherwise ye could not abound.

66 Behold, that which you hear is as the ^avoice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is ^bSpirit; my Spirit is truth; ^ctruth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

66 Behold, that which you hear is as the ^avoice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is ^bSpirit; my Spirit is truth; ^ctruth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

D&C 88

Quote

36 The ^aglory of God is ^bintelligence, or, in other words, ^clight and truth.

37 Light and truth forsake that ^aevil one.

D&C 93

Spirit, Light, truth, the word of God, the glory of God, the power of God, etc. all reference to the light of Christ.  

What is profound is that the following is in reference to the light of Christ (not the Holy Ghost) which abounds in every living being:

Quote

And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit ^acometh unto God, even the Father.

D&C 88:47

Edited September 11, 2023 by pogi

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Hi Navidad,

FWIW I don't agree with how many in my church believe and teach about the Holy Ghost.  I think the way some teach it is misleading and can lead to confusion and hurt feelings from non-members.   It gets a little messy because the "Holy Spirit" is a term that is used interchangeably to refer to the Holy Ghost and the light of Christ.  "Spirit of the Lord", "Spirit of Christ", and "Spirit of God" are all terms that are used interchangeably.  I think a lot of confusion arises because of this.  It is my position and belief that the light of Christ (Holy Spirit) is the primary influence of God in our lives - member or not.  It is the medium by which we communicate with the Lord and experience His presence.   

I believe that the role of the Holy Ghost is much more limited.  It is not something that members "always have with them" from 8 years old and onward.   Members are counseled to "receive" the Holy Ghost after baptism.  It is something that we aspire and work towards - and I believe is probably something that we don't attain to fully in this life, kind of like the counsel to "be perfect".     The role of the Holy Ghost is primarily 2-fold - 1) It testifies of the Father and the Son, and 2) it sanctifies/purifies from sin (baptism of fire).  Everything else I primarily attribute to the Holy Spirit, aka light of Christ.   We are also taught that revelation can happen through the Holy Ghost, but we are taught the same thing about the light of Christ.   It is my understanding and belief that the influence that we all primarily feel on a day-to-day basis is that of the light of Christ:

Light, truth, the word of God, the glory of God, the power of God, etc. all reference to the light of Christ.  

What is profound is that the following is in reference to the light of Christ (not the Holy Ghost) which abounds in every living being:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't know how similar this is to what you've said, but the Holy Ghost to me is the Saviour's spirit. In my faith walk now.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I don't know how similar this is to what you've said, but the Holy Ghost to me is the Saviour's spirit. In my faith walk now.

I personally think those are two different things, but I respect your beliefs.  However, I do think that because the Holy Ghost is a being who can only reside in one place at one time, He utilizes the omnipresent Spirit of the Lord that resides in every being, just as the Father and the Son do, if and when He wants to communicate with us.  All truth, enlightenment, and understanding happens via that omnipresent influence/power/Spirit that is the medium of transmitting and understanding all goodness.  I do believe that what many in the church attribute to the "Holy Ghost", is actually the "Saviour's spirit" (aka light of Christ, Spirit of the Lord, Holy Spirit, Spirit of God, etc.) as you suggest.   That is the medium through which we all experience God.  

Edited September 11, 2023 by pogi

[Navidad]

5 hours ago, webbles said:

For us, the Holy Ghost is an actual being with a spirit body and He only exists in one place at one time.  He isn't a force.

But, we also talk about the "Light of Christ", the "Manifestation of the Holy Ghost", and the "Gift of the Holy Ghost".  There are other words that interchangeable amongst those but those are the three main separations.

"Light of Christ" is a force/influence/power/energy/etc that can be felt by everyone.  It comes from God and we all have it.

"Manifestation of the Holy Ghost" is when the Holy Ghost manifests Himself to a person to bear record of Christ.  These can happen to everyone as well.  One way I've heard this described is an "ignition of the Light of Christ".  It is when a person feels the truth of things.

"Gift of the Holy Ghost" is when the Holy Ghost becomes a "constant companion".  He will be there to comfort you, help you, teach you, etc.  As long as we are doing our part, He will never leave us alone.

 

So, yes, everyone has the "Light of Christ".  Everyone can receive a "Manifestation of the Holy Ghost".  But not everyone has the "Gift of the Holy Ghost".  I also believe that many non-LDS Christians and even many non-Christians practice the presence and exhibit the impact of the force and being of God in their lives.  That doesn't mean that I believe they have the "Gift of the Holy Ghost" as it is a different thing.

References for the above:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2005/04/the-light-of-christ?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1996/10/always-have-his-spirit?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/light-of-christ?lang=eng

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/holy-ghost?lang=eng

 

Perhaps you might specifically describe what it is of the Holy Spirit that you have that I don't have? Pragmatically speaking (said that for Mark), what does the LDS experience of the "Gift of the Holy Ghost" grant you that I am not granted in my life right now?  Any Biblical texts that you might use to explain what you have as a result of LDS baptism that I don't have as a result of my current commitment and dedication to Christ?

Most importantly to me, how does the Gift(s) of the Holy Ghost manifest itself in you as a member of the LDS Church that is different from how it is manifested in my wife? What gifts do you have that God refuses me or withholds from me as I am now? Also how would I be spiritually different a week from now if I undergo LDS baptism by a missionary and some leaders in our ward lay hands on me confirm me into the LDS church? Next Monday as I write a post on this forum, how will I be a different Christian from what I am now in writing you this post?  That is the singularly most important question I could ask. How would I be spiritually different then from now? I can't ask for a CFR for these kinds of questions. I can only ask for a forthright (as Sara might say) response. How will I be a different Christian? How will the LDS concept of the Gift of the Holy Spirit make me different from what I have experienced the last sixty or so years? How does your doctrine of the Holy Spirit make you a different Christian than those to whom it is denied? Thanks.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Navidad

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, pogi said:

 It is my understanding and belief that the influence that we all primarily feel on a day-to-day basis is that of the light of Christ:

Interesting, however the majority, if not all of the LDS folks I talk with use the light of Christ as a distancing mechanism to distance themselves from the non-LDS Christian. In other words, we have the light of Christ (is it the LDS perspective that a force deemed the light of Christ is indeed Biblical?) but we do not have the Gift of the Holy Ghost, whatever that means to you. I haven't been totally successful (in my mind) in having an LDS friends tell me with exactitude what the Gift of the Holy Spirit that I don't have entails, and how I would be a different Christian tomorrow if I was granted it today. Take care. I always appreciate your comments.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Navidad

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Perhaps you might specifically describe what it is of the Holy Spirit that you have that I don't have? Pragmatically speaking (said that for Mark), what does the LDS experience of the "Gift of the Holy Ghost" grant you that I am not granted in my life right now?  Any Biblical texts that you might use to explain what you have as a result of LDS baptism that I don't have as a result of my current commitment and dedication to Christ?

Most importantly to me, how does the Gift(s) of the Holy Ghost manifest itself in you as a member of the LDS Church that is different from how it is manifested in my wife? What gifts do you have that God refuses me ow withholds from me as I am now? Also how would I be spiritually different a week from now if I undergo LDS baptism by a missionary and some leaders in our ward lay hands on me confirm me into the LDS church? Next Monday as I write a post on this forum, how will I be a different Christian from what I am now in writing you this post?  That is the singularly most important question I could ask. How would I be spiritually different then from now? I can't ask for a CFR for these kinds of questions. I can only ask for a forthright (as Sara might say) response. How will I be a different Christian? What will the LDS concept of the Gift of the Holy Spirit make me different from what I have experienced the last sixty or so years? How does your doctrine of the Holy Spirit make you a different Christian than those to whom it is denied? Thanks.

If I may attempt an answer from my perspective...

I am assuming that by "Holy Spirit", you mean Holy Ghost - remember it can refer to different things to us.  We all have equal access to the Spirit of Christ.  The gift of the Holy Ghost is often misunderstood, I think.  In my view, the gift of the Holy Ghost is not the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, as some may think/teach.  It is the key to have access to the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost IF we follow the commission to "receive the Holy Ghost".  It is an invitation and a key.  It is not anything more than that.   I would suggest that the vast majority of baptized members don't experience the Holy Ghost any differently than you do.   I would suggest that there are only a select few who have attained to the level of actually receiving the Holy Ghost as directed.   I think these are the limited few who have been purified and sanctified through the baptism of fire (something that happens after confirmation/"gift of the Holy Ghost") and have their callings and election made sure.  That is the only difference I see between baptized members and non-members in relation to the Holy Ghost.  I think that those who have the gift of the Holy Ghost have the opportunity to receive that higher ordinance.   Other than that, I don't think there is a difference.  The "gifts of the spirit" are not limited to members of the church.  I think those are endowed through the Spirit of Christ, which is different. 

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Interesting, however the majority, if not all of the LDS folks I talk with use the light of Christ as a distancing mechanism to distance themselves from the non-LDS Christian. In other words, we have the light of Christ (is it the LDS that a forced deemed the light of Christ is Biblical?) but we do not have the Gift of the Holy Ghost, whatever that means to you. I haven't been totally successful (in my mind) in having an LDS friends tell me with exactitude what the Gift of the Holy Spirit that I don't have entails, and how I would be a different Christian tomorrow if I was granted it today. Take care. I always appreciate your comments.

That makes me sad, honestly.   I agree that is probably currently the dominant view within my church, but it is not the only view.   There are plenty of teachings/scriptures to the contrary. 

[webbles]

14 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Perhaps you might specifically describe what it is of the Holy Spirit that you have that I don't have? Pragmatically speaking (said that for Mark), what does the LDS experience of the "Gift of the Holy Ghost" grant you that I am not granted in my life right now?  Any Biblical texts that you might use to explain what you have as a result of LDS baptism that I don't have as a result of my current commitment and dedication to Christ?

Most importantly to me, how does the Gift(s) of the Holy Ghost manifest itself in you as a member of the LDS Church that is different from how it is manifested in my wife? What gifts do you have that God refuses me ow withholds from me as I am now? Also how would I be spiritually different a week from now if I undergo LDS baptism by a missionary and some leaders in our ward lay hands on me confirm me into the LDS church? Next Monday as I write a post on this forum, how will I be a different Christian from what I am now in writing you this post?  That is the singularly most important question I could ask. How would I be spiritually different then from now? I can't ask for a CFR for these kinds of questions. I can only ask for a forthright (as Sara might say) response. How will I be a different Christian? What will the LDS concept of the Gift of the Holy Spirit make me different from what I have experienced the last sixty or so years? How does your doctrine of the Holy Spirit make you a different Christian than those to whom it is denied? Thanks.

First, "Gifts of the Holy Ghost" is different from "Gift of the Holy Ghost".  "Gift of the Holy Ghost" is a constant companionship with the Holy Ghost.  "Gifts of the Holy Ghost" are things like "gift of healing", "gift of tongues", "gift of seership", "gift of friendship", and similar.  Another term that might be used is "spiritual gifts".  These are gifts that God grants us through the Holy Ghost.  I, personally, believe that everyone has at least one spiritual gift.  But I do know that Joseph Smith said that they "cannot be enjoyed without the gift of the Holy Ghost" (https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/times-and-seasons-15-june-1842/9).  Considering he had the gift of translation before he was baptized and received the Holy Ghost, I'm not sure how to fit the two together.  My best guess is that we all have spiritual gifts but it is after receiving the Holy Ghost that we can fully utilize them.

I agree with pogi that we are supposed to "receive the Holy Ghost".  For those that perform the ordinance, we are instructed to say those words (step 4 in section 18.8.2 - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/general-handbook/18-priesthood-ordinances-and-blessings?lang=eng&id=title_number25#title_number25).  So just being confirmed doesn't gift us with the Holy Ghost.  It takes effort on our part.  That does mean that a recently baptized and confirmed person might not feel all that much different from how they were before.  It could also mean that they feel much different.  It is different for every person, depending on where they are in their spiritual journey.

To be frank, I don't know how the Holy Ghost would manifest in you vs where you are know.  I was 8 when I was confirmed and I have very few memories of before so I don't even know how it affected me.  Based on what I've read from you, my guess is that it would mostly strengthen and confirm what you've already done.  I believe you have spiritual gifts and have been working on them and using them.  I believe you have received manifestations of the Holy Ghost.  I believe He has guided you to be a better Christian.  But I also believe that with the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, you would be able to become even more.

[Navidad]

4 hours ago, webbles said:

How does that say He can be in more than one place at a time?

Also, Joseph Fielding Smith said in Doctrines of Salvation, 1:38

 

I admit to being confused as to when something a former apostle said has the weight of doctrine, when it is a result of revelation, and when it is his personal opinion.

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I admit to being confused as to when something a former apostle said has the weight of doctrine, when it is a result of revelation, and when it is his personal opinion.

Join the club.  The best recommendation is to not to take any leaders word for it.  We are supposed to rely on personal revelation.   After all, we are going to be judged by the light we personally receive, not on the light that anyone else receives. 

[Navidad]

19 minutes ago, webbles said:

"Gift of the Holy Ghost" is a constant companionship with the Holy Ghost.

Do you understand that to be taught in the Bible, or is it a uniquely LDS concept stemming from a modern revelation to an LDS leader? Thanks for your time and care in responding. I really appreciate it.

[Navidad]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

After all, we are going to be judged by the light we personally receive, not on the light that anyone else receives. 

Well I certainly agree with you about that. That has been a maturing concept in my mind. Thanks and take care.