Can Cultural Diversity Exist in Zion?

[JLHPROF]

I assume by a Zion society that you mean a society similar to the millennial reign and then the society of God's Kingdom on earth. I don't think it's a stretch to suppose that all worldly traditions will eventually be removed from such a society. Many of our cultural traditions are not evil or wrong per se but they are also not of god.

Diverse languages were mentioned. It's important to remember where this diversity of language came from according to god. The scriptures tell us that God confounded our language as a punishment. There is no reason to suppose eventually we will not all be back to speaking the same language.

Diversity of cultures is not a bad thing but we should realize that eventually those cultural differences that are literally the result of being fallen will be removed when the earth is no longer in a fallen state.  Scriptures also tell us that the Lord will make an end of all nations.

So how much cultural diversity will there be in Zion?  We can't say but we can say that worldliness will eventually be removed.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

Really think we need to clarify what is mean by “diversity.” People seem to have varying ideas of diversity from “see I’m not racist, I have a black friend” to multiculturalism. Also would be interested in what you think is the, current dominant culture in the church, if any, and how you would describe it. If there is one, how amenable do you think that culture is to pluralism?

I don't think this has anything to do with "racism"; the question is how one establishes unity (ZION) when major chunks of of the people within the organization to be unified speak different languages?

Let me give an example.

You are an active LDS family with a strong testimony.

For the good of YOUR FAMILY, you must leave the oppressive nation in which you presently live.

You emigrate to a nation without the oppression; and happen to live in an area which is predominantly occupied by people who also came from your "old country".  It's comfortable culturally.

To make it easy for most people reading this, let's pretend that you are an American and an English only speaker.

Yet America has changed and now you feel oppressed here.

You move to Africa.

You live within an area largely occupied by Americans, and you feel very comfortable in your neighborhood.

More Americans keep coming. Great! Your stake creates another English ward. And another.

Soon there are enough English speakers to make an English STAKE!

You love your English stake!  The social events are fun again, no hassles about translation, you understand the lessons and Sacrament talks, the jokes- it brings back "the church experience" you had back home.  Your testimony grows.

But your African nation thinks that they are getting too much of American culture influencing everything in their society. Americans are taking jobs away from their own people.

Immigration slows down. Fewer Americans can get work permits. People are leaving the church, especially the youth. 

Over time, the American Stake is having trouble sustaining itself, or at least the Area Authorities think so.

Your stake is dissolved.

Most of the former members are highly resentful that "They took away our Stake".

Now they feel disenfranchised.  It's back to all the old problems about social issues all over again. Clearly dissolving "Your Stake" has left a lot of hurt feelings, and some are leaving because they are just plain tired of being what they see as " second class members".

You are called to be a counselor in the Area Presidency, probably  because you are familiar with both sides of the issue

WHAT DO YOU RECOMMEND?

😳

 

[mfbukowski]

41 minutes ago, Ragerunner said:

The cultural acceptance we will have to figure out how to do through Christlike love.

Agree fully.

But now the BIG QUESTION:

Does having Stakes based on culture (language) help or hinder  "figuring it out through Christlike love"?

[Rain]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I don't think this has anything to do with "racism"; the question is how one establishes unity (ZION) when major chunks of of the people within the organization to be unified speak different languages?

Let me give an example.

You are an active LDS family with a strong testimony.

For the good of YOUR FAMILY, you must leave the oppressive nation in which you presently live.

You emigrate to a nation without the oppression; and happen to live in an area which is predominantly occupied by people who also came from your "old country".  It's comfortable culturally.

To make it easy for most people reading this, let's pretend that you are an American and an English only speaker.

Yet America has changed and now you feel oppressed here.

You move to Africa.

You live within an area largely occupied by Americans, and you feel very comfortable in your neighborhood.

More Americans keep coming. Great! Your stake creates another English ward. And another.

Soon there are enough English speakers to make an English STAKE!

You love your English stake!  The social events are fun again, no hassles about translation, you understand the lessons and Sacrament talks, the jokes- it brings back "the church experience" you had back home.  Your testimony grows.

But your African nation thinks that they are getting too much of American culture influencing everything in their society. Americans are taking jobs away from their own people.

Immigration slows down. Fewer Americans can get work permits. People are leaving the church, especially the youth. 

Over time, the American Stake is having trouble sustaining itself, or at least the Area Authorities think so.

Your stake is dissolved.

Most of the former members are highly resentful that "They took away our Stake".

Now they feel disenfranchised.  It's back to all the old problems about social issues all over again. Clearly dissolving "Your Stake" has left a lot of hurt feelings, and some are leaving because they are just plain tired of being what they see as " second class members".

You are called to be a counselor in the Area Presidency, probably  because you are familiar with both sides of the issue

WHAT DO YOU RECOMMEND?

😳

 

That's a tough one, especially since people can feel so different.  Having traveled quite a bit we love the idea of going into a new culture and learning about it, but I recognize that we would be going by choice and with ability to financially take care of our family. Many who arrive in new countries are not arriving by choice, have lost all or almost all of their possessions and may have lost many family members. 

Many of their cultures are also based on family, extended family and community where as the US has a very strong individualism culture. So here they are arriving already so vulnerable and not only lose so much, but suddenly instead of the sense of community there is so much where they are expected to go it alone. So an American just won't get the same experience going to Africa as an African will get coming here.  The very basic individualism culture is very different than the very basic community culture.

So what would I do after thinking about it writing this post? I would go to the leaders in those communities. Not the church leaders, the ones who naturally lead - though they may be the same, but not always.  I would explain the situation to them and have them give their input.  So often when we help people whether they be immigrants, refugees, women, the poor, those who are gay, of a different race, children etc we make plans without ever consulting them, thinking we know best, when we actually really don't understand the situation well at all.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Rain

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, ksfisher said:

Are you meaning when diversity comes (it's already here) or when you supposition comes?

Yes it's here, but are we promoting unity based on the love of Christ by having language-based units?

Is there any other way?

(Eve before eating the fruit)

(Bad if you do, bad if you don't)

[mfbukowski]

8 minutes ago, Rain said:

That's a tough one, especially since people can feel so different.  Having traveled quite a bit we love the idea of going into a new culture and learning about it, but I recognize that we would be going by choice and with ability to financially take care of our family. Many who arrive in new countries are not arriving by choice, have lost all or almost all of their possessions and may have lost many family members. 

Many of their cultures are also based on family, extended family and community where as the US has a very strong individualism culture. So here they are arriving already so vulnerable and not only lose so much, but suddenly instead of the sense of community there is so much where they are expected to go it alone. So an American just won't get the same experience going to Africa as an African will get coming here.  The very basic individualism culture is very different than the very basic community culture.

So what would I do after thinking about it writing this post? I would go to the leaders in those communities. Not the church leaders, the ones who naturally lead - though they may be the same, but not always.  I would explain the situation to them and give their input.  So often when we help people whether they be immigrants, refugees, women, the poor, those who are gay, of a different race, children etc we make plans without ever consulting them, thinking we know best, when we actually really don't understand the situation well at all.

NOW we are getting somewhere!

It's a great idea, and I think the first suggestion of a solution.

BUT will we then find leaders who might be already prejudiced against the church? Or not want a temple in their district because of traffic or who knows what?  It's a tough problem I think! 

[mfbukowski]

22 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I'm fine with finding my Zion in Utah.

 

That's a great point, but I can guarantee that not all members would agree!  If it ever really happens, will we be able to pick our own locale?

Definitely a different way to see it!

Like all conversions it is a matter of testimony- or will it be a physical location?

 

[mfbukowski]

20 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

What constitutes diversity? What does it look like in practice?

People who talk funny who think I talk funny.

AND they have weird music and dance around instead or my RIGHT way of dancing.

🤪

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

I say we host more 'Christmas in Zarahemla' parties, or other such holidays so we can host a Fiesta and/or Luau. Enough times so we can practice more authentic ambiance, decoration, foods, games.

Uh, I think that is the problem.

What is the "authentic ambiance, decoration, foods, games" of Zarahemla?

THAT is what is needed.

[Navidad]

I think Zion will achieve true diversity when it accepts a Mennonite into its midst, just as they are! The last time we were in our ward, our new bishop looked down at us and said with a smile, "It is always good to have you folks visiting with us!" After six years of attendance! I about fell out of the pew. That is why I loved pastoring a non-denominational community church. The barriers of denominational distinctions really didn't matter. I learned in public school work that often times, people were advocates for diversity with which they were comfortable. No others needed to apply!

[Navidad]

6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

People who talk funny who think I talk funny.

AND they have weird music and dance around instead or my RIGHT way of dancing.

🤪

Oh my goodness, there is a RIGHT way to dance? 🙃 Your idea of diversity must include sinners! And as a Mennonite, that's all I have to say about that!

[Navidad]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Uh, I think that is the problem.

What is the "authentic ambiance, decoration, foods, games" of Zarahemla?

THAT is what is needed.

Snickerdoodles

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have it on authority that the devil hates Latin. Almost as much as people who have to learn it in school even.

It's all them declensions and stuff.

How could anyone get it all right?

I think what people actually SPOKE was the vulgate 

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, Smiley McGee said:

Really think we need to clarify what is mean by “diversity.” People seem to have varying ideas of diversity from “see I’m not racist, I have a black friend” to multiculturalism. Also would be interested in what you think is the, current dominant culture in the church, if any, and how you would describe it. If there is one, how amenable do you think that culture is to pluralism?

That's what I am trying to figure out.

The scriptures are English and so is Conference. That affects everything 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

The TV tells me using Latin is how you cast magic spells.

Blame it on that Hairy Potmaker character 

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I assume by a Zion society that you mean a society similar to the millennial reign and then the society of God's Kingdom on earth. I don't think it's a stretch to suppose that all worldly traditions will eventually be removed from such a society. Many of our cultural traditions are not evil or wrong per se but they are also not of god.

Diverse languages were mentioned. It's important to remember where this diversity of language came from according to god. The scriptures tell us that God confounded our language as a punishment. There is no reason to suppose eventually we will not all be back to speaking the same language.

Diversity of cultures is not a bad thing but we should realize that eventually those cultural differences that are literally the result of being fallen will be removed when the earth is no longer in a fallen state.  Scriptures also tell us that the Lord will make an end of all nations.

So how much cultural diversity will there be in Zion?  We can't say but we can say that worldliness will eventually be removed.

Somehow I missed this, but this is EXACTLY what I was looking to discuss!!

So now are we going down the right or wrong path?

I notice that you do not present any method or path to get to the answer, not that anyone HAS a solution.

So should we be so attached to our own culture that we are offended when our old "language stake" is dissolved because the demographics have shifted?

Or when we have to change buildings because "our" Ward building is now needed by a "foreign" newly established ward?

These are actual problems that humans create which to some, interfere with becoming "one unified Zion people".

Some might think that if you come to the USA, you MUST learn English, even to participate in church, or you are putting up barriers that do not belong in a church which teaches us to abandon personal cultures to enable Zion to become one unified Kingdom of God.

It doesn't matter which language is chosen- what matters is spiritual unity.

 

 

Edited August 26, 2023 by mfbukowski
Quote error to be repaired

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Scriptures also tell us that the Lord will make an end of all nations.

Yes, this is the crux of the problem!

But how do we get there?

Shouldn't we be planning for this if Zion will be established "soon"??

Edited August 26, 2023 by mfbukowski
Quote Error to be corrected

[Pyreaux]

33 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Uh, I think that is the problem.

What is the "authentic ambiance, decoration, foods, games" of Zarahemla?

THAT is what is needed.

In the past it was cactus or palm tree decorations, unlit tiki torches, and self-served soft tacos. And getting our Polynesian member to recite the story of Samuel for us as a reminder that the Book of Mormon has a Nativity story too. What we don't know of Zarahemla is subsidized by the native culture south of the border where Zarahemla is popularly believed to be, Mexican and Hawaiian influenced warm-weather ways to celebrate Christmas. Hispanic foods. It just with more times we intentionally attempt to do things like that means more we can improve our craft, the more exposure to Authentic foods and activities of other geographical area.

[Ragerunner]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Agree fully.

But now the BIG QUESTION:

Does having Stakes based on culture (language) help or hinder  "figuring it out through Christlike love"?

Help - I think they serve a current need and help those grow in the gospel with their native language.
Hinder - Because of the language barrier it does restrict the ability to better communicate and understand each other with different cultural backgrounds.

I really do think AI will break these language barriers within five years with new seamless technology. As that technology grows the need for language based wards and stakes will disappear and our ability to better breakdown those cultural barriers will increase significantly. 
 

Hopefully helping us become even more Christlike to one another.

[mfbukowski]

38 minutes ago, Ragerunner said:

Help - I think they serve a current need and help those grow in the gospel with their native language.
Hinder - Because of the language barrier it does restrict the ability to better communicate and understand each other with different cultural backgrounds.

I really do think AI will break these language barriers within five years with new seamless technology. As that technology grows the need for language based wards and stakes will disappear and our ability to better breakdown those cultural barriers will increase significantly. 
 

Hopefully helping us become even more Christlike to one another.

Good points.

AI can also be seen as pretty scary.  I am not sure I would trust any "AI Translation" of anything important, though. 

[CV75]

On 8/25/2023 at 4:08 PM, mfbukowski said:

The way I am raising this issue is intentionally more confrontational than I usually would be, to make a point, attempting to replicate the moods that might be the silently held attitudes of some church members.

I actually overheard this question being discussed.

We are now an international church, with most growth happening in Africa and Latin America, yet we also hope to become a "Zion People" in a unified culture directed by the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

We teach our Gospel and perform temple ordinances in many languages and many cultures.

We all like our own language and traditions and in many ways they become part of who we are, and our personal identities. We are now becoming a much more culturally diverse church than ever before.

So now, suppose events evolve and we are all supposed to give it all up and act as if we are all 6th generation Mormons ( "M" word used intentionally ), which in the minds of many means Utah LDS culture.

Can diversity exist in Zion, when it comes?  Should we all strive NOW to integrate activities between wards with different languages?

How do we prepare now to become one people, while presently encouraging diversity?

I think the ‘Come, Follow Me’ lesson for Aug. 21-27 covers this pretty well!

The language of Zion (the Spirit) can be spoken in any language, so I think as the saints become of one heart and one mind in the Lord, they will figure out the right ways to relate to each other on inter-unit activity levels as the need arises. There's a lot to be said already about how much good the tithing and fast offerings of a globally diverse membership does, and a diversity of membership from different units regularly get involved in humanitarian projects (e.g., food drives, refugee assistance, etc.). As we get involved in our communities as counseled, members of different languages will rub shoulders more often.

[mfbukowski]

47 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

In the past it was cactus or palm tree decorations, unlit tiki torches, and self-served soft tacos. And getting our Polynesian member to recite the story of Samuel for us as a reminder that the Book of Mormon has a Nativity story too. What we don't know of Zarahemla is subsidized by the native culture south of the border where Zarahemla is popularly believed to be, Mexican and Hawaiian influenced warm-weather ways to celebrate Christmas. Hispanic foods. It just with more times we intentionally attempt to do things like that means more we can improve our craft, the more exposure to Authentic foods and activities of other geographical area.

We need AI to make something up for us.

Or another Joseph.  Or the former presented as the latter.  😳😱 It almost doesn't matter which 🤯

[Ragerunner]

17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Good points.

AI can also be seen as pretty scary.  I am not sure I would trust any "AI Translation" of anything important, though. 

AI technology will be used for good and bad. Just like the internet, computers, etc.

It will open a whole new world of possibilities that have the potential to do a lot of good for humanity. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Ragerunner

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I think Zion will achieve true diversity when it accepts a Mennonite into its midst, just as they are! The last time we were in our ward, our new bishop looked down at us and said with a smile, "It is always good to have you folks visiting with us!" After six years of attendance! I about fell out of the pew. That is why I loved pastoring a non-denominational community church. The barriers of denominational distinctions really didn't matter. I learned in public school work that often times, people were advocates for diversity with which they were comfortable. No others needed to apply!

No, we want racial and linguistic diversity, not doctrinal diversity.

"Visiting" is a rather ambiguous word, isn't it.

Not sure what your point is; did you feel welcomed or snubbed?

Sorry but I tend to be unsure of interpreting your comments

Edited August 26, 2023 by mfbukowski

[Navidad]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

No, we want racial and linguistic diversity, not doctrinal diversity.

"Visiting" is a rather ambiguous word, isn't it.

Not sure what your point is; did you feel welcomed or snubbed?

Like outsiders! You said a mouthful in this response. "Not doctrinal diversity." Is there something to be afraid of in "doctrinal diversity." It seems to me that is enriching, expanding, and an asset, no? Doctrine, is a part of religion, is a part of culture, no?

Edited August 26, 2023 by Navidad