Worthy - worthiness; righteousness; and eligible - eligibility; and authority

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am not sure what I said that you are referring to. I would mostly affirm that I think exaltation and sanctification share some common components. The distinction would be in us becoming "like God" instead of "as God."

This quote is not about your question here, but here is what the church says about your questions.

You might want to ask the church first before you waste time with us yahoos on the board.

 

Salvation

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/salvation?lang=eng

[Rain]

31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

This is still speaking of salvation as some kind of event or ordinance.  "Before" implies an event in time.

No, I specifically said, "I'm not sure there is an actual one (exaltation) follows the other (salvation)".  Perhaps you meant to quote someone else?

31 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I believe there is no problem for an individual to believe that, but what is your church source which indicates salvation as an event "before" exaltation?

NA since I wasn't saying that.

 

[Sara H]

12 hours ago, InCognitus said:

What Rain said above in response to your post was perfect.  There's nothing I could add.

But I did ask you for sources in this post here , and you haven't provided them.  You said "In today's culture, it makes sense for Latter-day Saints to want to project an image that is more Christian than LDS."  This is also why I asked you for your definition of Christian.  Since you say you are not using more than interpretation of the term "Christian", then what exactly is your definition of Christian?

I've already described what I consider to be a Christian, but it seems that you don't agree with me. The apostate Christian religions, which were persuaded to remove many priceless truths and crucial covenants from their teachings, are what our theory contrasts with the true and eternal gospel, or true Christianity. 

 

According to our doctrine, "Jesus Christ Founded His Church Among His Followers When He Was on the Earth. The fullness of the gospel was removed from the earth after his crucifixion and the deaths of his apostles due to widespread apostasy. Our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, restored the fullness of the gospel through the prophet Joseph Smith. Jesus Christ's authentic church has returned to the planet. All people now have access to the teachings and ordinances required for SALVATION because of the restoration. For me, that provides a clear and concise explanation of our beliefs and the motivation behind our recruitment efforts. 

 

Traditional Christianity was created on this planet, developed over many years, and according to our faith, at its inception, it was affected by men who were under the control of Satan, Pagans, and those who despised Christ. A valid baptism cannot be done within Traditional Christianity as a result of the removal of many vows and facts. In contrast to the history of the gospel we follow, the history of Traditional Christianity is of this world and it will not have any strength or authority to transcend this world. The gospel that we have decided to follow rules the cosmos, the skies, and even the Gods. Unlike the Traditional Christianity of this world, it is an immortal gospel that will never come to an end. 

 

The gospel didn't cease to exist when God took it from the earth for protection. In the skies and everywhere, it was still running at full capacity. Because of the veil of forgetfulness that surrounds us while we are here, we are unable to fully comprehend the eternal gospel before it was expelled from the planet. But if we keep the commandments, God has promised that one day this veil will disappear and we shall once more comprehend the full grandeur of our message. However, just because we don't fully comprehend the history of our faith doesn't imply we should turn to other sources in search of a history that makes some sense to us. And in my opinion, that is what we are trying to do when we pretend that Traditional Christianity is part of our history, which it very surely isn't. The history of our gospel continued to be lived in the heavens and on other planets that were similar to this one while Traditional Christianity was still practised here on earth. Since the faith I adhere to doesn't have two histories, I have no inclination to try to pretend that it does. I admit that I simply don't understand what was going on inside the real gospel when it wasn't on earth if God is to be believed when he claims to have taken the gospel from earth for roughly 1800 years. Why do you feel the need to act like Traditional Christianity is our history when the history of the eternal gospel was still being lived in heaven and on other planets during the time we're speaking of?

 

[Vanguard]

1 hour ago, Sara H said:

I've already described what I consider to be a Christian, but it seems that you don't agree with me. The apostate Christian religions, which were persuaded to remove many priceless truths and crucial covenants from their teachings, are what our theory contrasts with the true and eternal gospel, or true Christianity. 

 

According to our doctrine, "Jesus Christ Founded His Church Among His Followers When He Was on the Earth. The fullness of the gospel was removed from the earth after his crucifixion and the deaths of his apostles due to widespread apostasy. Our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, restored the fullness of the gospel through the prophet Joseph Smith. Jesus Christ's authentic church has returned to the planet. All people now have access to the teachings and ordinances required for SALVATION because of the restoration. For me, that provides a clear and concise explanation of our beliefs and the motivation behind our recruitment efforts. 

 

Traditional Christianity was created on this planet, developed over many years, and according to our faith, at its inception, it was affected by men who were under the control of Satan, Pagans, and those who despised Christ. A valid baptism cannot be done within Traditional Christianity as a result of the removal of many vows and facts. In contrast to the history of the gospel we follow, the history of Traditional Christianity is of this world and it will not have any strength or authority to transcend this world. The gospel that we have decided to follow rules the cosmos, the skies, and even the Gods. Unlike the Traditional Christianity of this world, it is an immortal gospel that will never come to an end. 

 

The gospel didn't cease to exist when God took it from the earth for protection. In the skies and everywhere, it was still running at full capacity. Because of the veil of forgetfulness that surrounds us while we are here, we are unable to fully comprehend the eternal gospel before it was expelled from the planet. But if we keep the commandments, God has promised that one day this veil will disappear and we shall once more comprehend the full grandeur of our message. However, just because we don't fully comprehend the history of our faith doesn't imply we should turn to other sources in search of a history that makes some sense to us. And in my opinion, that is what we are trying to do when we pretend that Traditional Christianity is part of our history, which it very surely isn't. The history of our gospel continued to be lived in the heavens and on other planets that were similar to this one while Traditional Christianity was still practised here on earth. Since the faith I adhere to doesn't have two histories, I have no inclination to try to pretend that it does. I admit that I simply don't understand what was going on inside the real gospel when it wasn't on earth if God is to be believed when he claims to have taken the gospel from earth for roughly 1800 years. Why do you feel the need to act like Traditional Christianity is our history when the history of the eternal gospel was still being lived in heaven and on other planets during the time we're speaking of?

 

I actually think these are some pretty good points you make. I had not thought of Christianity in this way until you brought it up. This is indeed one of if not the greatest differences between the LDS faith and general Christianity, that being, His gospel as we understand it in at least one important way ceased to exist millennia ago. What was left after this gospel departed is the story of centuries worth of effort by those who continued trying to make sense of Christianity. By and large I believe they were able to preserve and practice much of the beauty of the gospel the Lord established back then and we still see its beautiful fruits being practiced around the world today.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Vanguard

[Navidad]

59 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

According to our doctrine, "Jesus Christ Founded His Church Among His Followers When He Was on the Earth. The fullness of the gospel was removed from the earth after his crucifixion and the deaths of his apostles due to widespread apostasy. Our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, restored the fullness of the gospel through the prophet Joseph Smith. Jesus Christ's authentic church has returned to the planet. All people now have access to the teachings and ordinances required for SALVATION because of the restoration. For me, that provides a clear and concise explanation of our beliefs and the motivation behind our recruitment efforts. 

 

Traditional Christianity was created on this planet, developed over many years, and according to our faith, at its inception, it was affected by men who were under the control of Satan, Pagans, and those who despised Christ. A valid baptism cannot be done within Traditional Christianity as a result of the removal of many vows and facts. In contrast to the history of the gospel we follow, the history of Traditional Christianity is of this world and it will not have any strength or authority to transcend this world. The gospel that we have decided to follow rules the cosmos, the skies, and even the Gods. Unlike the Traditional Christianity of this world, it is an immortal gospel that will never come to an end. 

 

The gospel didn't cease to exist when God took it from the earth for protection. In the skies and everywhere, it was still running at full capacity. Because of the veil of forgetfulness that surrounds us while we are here, we are unable to fully comprehend the eternal gospel before it was expelled from the planet. But if we keep the commandments, God has promised that one day this veil will disappear and we shall once more comprehend the full grandeur of our message. However, just because we don't fully comprehend the history of our faith doesn't imply we should turn to other sources in search of a history that makes some sense to us. And in my opinion, that is what we are trying to do when we pretend that Traditional Christianity is part of our history, which it very surely isn't. The history of our gospel continued to be lived in the heavens and on other planets that were similar to this one while Traditional Christianity was still practised here on earth. Since the faith I adhere to doesn't have two histories, I have no inclination to try to pretend that it does. I admit that I simply don't understand what was going on inside the real gospel when it wasn't on earth if God is to be believed when he claims to have taken the gospel from earth for roughly 1800 years. Why do you feel the need to act like Traditional Christianity is our history when the history of the eternal gospel was still being lived in heaven and on other planets during the time we're speaking of?

 

Hi - You have a beginning quotation mark before the word Jesus Christ as if you are quoting something. Then you never put in a end-of-quotation mark. Are you quoting from some authoritative source of LDS doctrine or are you stating your own personal interpretation of your doctrine? If you are quoting something (see your quotation mark), could you please provide the source and citation? Thanks. Oh and who are "those under the control of Satan, Pagans, and those who despised Christ?" Can you give me names? I am a "traditional Christian" that you so boldly, casually, and painfully are talking about, as if I am not reading how you describe me. I am not an invisible caricature. I am right here. Will you look at me in my monitor and tell me that I am under the control of Satan, Pagans, and am one who despises Christ? Oh, and then tell me that is the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Sara H said:

Why do you feel the need to act like Traditional Christianity is our history when the history of the eternal gospel was still being lived in heaven and on other planets during the time we're speaking of?

Why does calling myself a Christian or calling the church a Christian church mean that I'm acting that Traditional Christianity is my history?  This feels like the argument that other Christians use to deny my Christianity.  I don't accept Traditional Christianity but that doesn't mean I'm not a Christian.

[Sara H]

37 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hi - You have a beginning quotation mark before the word Jesus Christ as if you are quoting something. Then you never put in a end-of-quotation mark. Are you quoting from some authoritative source of LDS doctrine or are you stating your own personal interpretation of your doctrine? If you are quoting something (see your quotation mark), could you please provide the source and citation? Thanks. Oh and who are "those under the control of Satan, Pagans, and those who despised Christ?" Can you give me names? I am a "traditional Christian" that you so boldly, casually, and painfully are talking about, as if I am not reading how you describe me. I am not an invisible caricature. I am right here. Will you look at me in my monitor and tell me that I am under the control of Satan, Pagans, and am one who despises Christ? Oh, and then tell me that is the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1985/10/the-only-true-church?lang=eng

 

Here is a sermon given by Boyd K. Packer, an apostle in our church. Would you like to view this so that we can talk about what I'm attempting to explain in more detail? 

[Sara H]

38 minutes ago, webbles said:

Why does calling myself a Christian or calling the church a Christian church mean that I'm acting that Traditional Christianity is my history?  This feels like the argument that other Christians use to deny my Christianity.  I don't accept Traditional Christianity but that doesn't mean I'm not a Christian.

What branch of Christianity do you say you follow? Traditional Christianity or the Christianity that God removed from the earth for 1800 years, the restored gospel?

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, Rain said:

I'm not sure there is an actual one follows the other, but yes, you cannot have exaltation without salvation.  

Sorry but if you were saying that salvation was part of exaltation, one process, here, I missed it.   🫠

I think "process" is a useful word to clarify this - it becomes a lifelong commitment.

"The salvation process" is the way I think of it.  Thanks for helping me clarify my own garbled 🥴 words! 

[Navidad]

28 minutes ago, Sara H said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1985/10/the-only-true-church?lang=eng

 

Here is a sermon given by Boyd K. Packer, an apostle in our church. Would you like to view this so that we can talk about what I'm attempting to explain in more detail? 

Hi Sara: I am very familiar with that talk and with Apostle Packer. That talk was given around 40 years ago and it never mentions pagans or Satan or anyone despising Christ. Thanks

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

I don't accept Traditional Christianity but that doesn't mean I'm not a Christian.

Never mind.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Navidad

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, Sara H said:

What branch of Christianity do you say you follow? Traditional Christianity or the Christianity that God removed from the earth for 1800 years, the restored gospel?

Never mind.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Navidad

[Navidad]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Sorry but if you were saying that salvation was part of exaltation, one process, here, I missed it.   🫠

I think "process" is a useful word to clarify this - it becomes a lifelong commitment.

"The salvation process" is the way I think of it.  Thanks for helping me clarify my own garbled 🥴 words! 

I am not sure if you have me on ignore or not - you said you were going to ignore me, so I thought of that as an active verb. Anyway, in case you are reading this, I just thought of you. I am reading an article for my thesis and here is what I just read. "Historians could have learned long ago from Saussure or Wittgenstein that language cannot be avoided, it is not just a tool but the form of human existence."  He went on to say, "This phenomenon is described by the American pragmatist philosopher, Charles S Peirce as abduction. We look for a theory, he explains, taking our starting point in facts. We proceed by a trial and error method, we do not make random guesses, however, we use our intuition instead. Abduction is a sudden regrouping of hitherto unconscious information into a new form." Aren't you proud of me, I am continuing to get eddicated! Have a good day! 🙃

[Vanguard]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Hi - You have a beginning quotation mark before the word Jesus Christ as if you are quoting something. Then you never put in a end-of-quotation mark. Are you quoting from some authoritative source of LDS doctrine or are you stating your own personal interpretation of your doctrine? If you are quoting something (see your quotation mark), could you please provide the source and citation? Thanks. Oh and who are "those under the control of Satan, Pagans, and those who despised Christ?" Can you give me names? I am a "traditional Christian" that you so boldly, casually, and painfully are talking about, as if I am not reading how you describe me. I am not an invisible caricature. I am right here. Will you look at me in my monitor and tell me that I am under the control of Satan, Pagans, and am one who despises Christ? Oh, and then tell me that is the doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Nav - You've misattributed the quotation. ; )

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Sara H said:

What branch of Christianity do you say you follow? Traditional Christianity or the Christianity that God removed from the earth for 1800 years, the restored gospel?

Even if we follow a different branch than the rest of Christianity, that shouldn’t matter when talking about who we are in the sense of do we or do we not believe in Christ and seek to listen and follow him to the best of our ability.

Christianity can be viewed as the collection of Christian sects with different branches that are rooted in the life, death, and resurrection of Christ 2000 years ago, but as no branch of a tree would have the right to claim to be the tree itself while excluding the rest of the branches no matter how small, so should no branch of Christianity insist it is “Christianity”, nor should we choose to label ourselves or others as the only tree with those roots.

Christianity can also be viewed as the collection of individuals believing in Christ, seeking to follow him.  What sect one belongs to becomes meaningless for this (and given that even within sects each individual has their own unique set of interpretations if we are trying to be precise it is less branching trees and more probability spheres where if you claim to be of one sect, you will find yourself somewhere in the vicinity of the central point of all those who claim to be part of that sect).  I often think this description is best.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Calm

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Sara H said:

What branch of Christianity do you say you follow? Traditional Christianity or the Christianity that God removed from the earth for 1800 years, the restored gospel?

I follow the restored gospel.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Sorry but if you were saying that salvation was part of exaltation, one process, here, I missed it.   🫠

I think "process" is a useful word to clarify this - it becomes a lifelong commitment.

"The salvation process" is the way I think of it.  Thanks for helping me clarify my own garbled 🥴 words! 

For me the label “Plan of Salvation” could be seen as a map to a destination of Salvation as is often depicted in lessons, but it makes more sense to me to see Salvation as the whole map, not just one point on it, like using a map of the United States or the world to show locations you have been all through your life as opposed to just printing/writing out a specific set of directions to get to San Francisco from Salt Lake like I used to use for trips home.

Perhaps even better would be to look at the Plan of Salvation as a set of blueprints where one focuses on one small part to understand the day’s job while always keeping in mind the full set.  The Plan of Salvation is the plan of our construction as eternal, exalted beings.  Salvation then is keeping to the blueprints and not getting too creative on our own, though the architect being the perfect creator that he is, sets up the opportunities for a lot of customizing.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Sara H said:

According to our doctrine, "Jesus Christ Founded His Church Among His Followers When He Was on the Earth.

Is this a quote?  (Google says not)

If so, what is the full quote and please provide a link to where you got it. CFR

Edited June 22, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Sara H said:

And in my opinion, that is what we are trying to do when we pretend that Traditional Christianity is part of our history, which it very surely isn't.

This is like saying the history of the Americas before the establishment of the United States is not part of our history (the people of the United States) because we don’t claim the US was established on the foundation of the cultures that existed here and instead point back to Europe and Greece, etc.

The Restored Gospel came back to the awareness of mortal men in the context of Traditional Christianity. We can’t understand why Joseph felt the need to ask God if we don’t understand the basic history of Christianity because that created the environment that nurtured and pushed Joseph to the Grove.  Therefore the history of traditional Christianity is also the history of the Restored Gospel, just as the history of the Americas that existed before the appearance of the US is the history of the US because it was the cradle and crucible that allowed the US to come to be.  To truly understand the US, one needs to understand all of what came before.

To me it’s pretending to believe we do not have roots in traditional Christianity, like someone who thinks they are nobility and therefore ignores the fact that their mother’s father was a ‘commoner’ that made a mint by first working at and then buying a junkyard and eventually owning a multitude of junkyards spread across the country by insisting that the descendants of all the siblings of that grandfather actually aren’t related to them at all and when you look at their pedigree chart, a quarter of it is missing.

Also we need to be aware that everyone who joined the Church in its early modern years came from a different belief system and brought with them ideas that influenced the expression of the Restoration, including adding in some of the ideas that were used in doctrine (Priesthood Ban).  The Restored Gospel was not dropped fully formed with a manual written by God into Joseph’s lap.  Unless we are aware of some of the beliefs that were brought into the Church by converts and why they were held by these converts as well as those who borrow ideas from nonmembers (good and bad…the young earth creationism of Joseph Fielding Smith was not revealed, but acquired from his study of a Seventh Day Adventist:  https://benspackman.com/2020/09/interpreting-science-and-scripture-joseph-fielding-smith-seventh-day-adventists-and-hermeneutics-in-lds-history/ ), we will mess up in understanding what is actually the Restored Gospel and what are the ideas of men.  If some of the ideas of traditional Christianity (antiCatholicism anyone? Curse of Cain) are a part of the current history of our faith, the history of traditional Christianity is also our history.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Calm

[Navidad]

51 minutes ago, Calm said:

This is like saying the history of the Americas before the establishment of the United States is not part of our history (the people of the United States) because we don’t claim the US was established on the foundation of the cultures that existed here and instead point back to Europe and Greece, etc.

The Restored Gospel came back to the awareness of mortal men in the context of Traditional Christianity. We can’t understand why Joseph felt the need to ask God if we don’t understand the basic history of Christianity because that created the environment that nurtured and pushed Joseph to the Grove.  Therefore the history of traditional Christianity is also the history of the Restored Gospel, just as the history of the Americas that existed before the appearance of the US is the history of the US because it was the cradle and crucible that allowed the US to come to be.  To truly understand the US, one needs to understand all of what came before.

To me it’s pretending to believe we do not have roots in traditional Christianity, like someone who thinks they are nobility and therefore ignores the fact that their mother’s father was a ‘commoner’ that made a mint by first working at and then buying a junkyard and eventually owning a multitude of junkyards spread across the country by insisting that the descendants of all the siblings of that grandfather actually aren’t related to them at all and when you look at their pedigree chart, a quarter of it is missing.

Also we need to be aware that everyone who joined the Church in its early modern years came from a different belief system and brought with them ideas that influenced the expression of the Restoration, including adding in some of the ideas that were used in doctrine (Priesthood Ban).  The Restored Gospel was not dropped fully formed with a manual written by God into Joseph’s lap.  Unless we are aware of some of the beliefs that were brought into the Church by converts as well as those who borrow ideas from nonmembers (good and bad…the young earth creationism of Joseph Fielding Smith was not revealed, but acquired from his study of a Seventh Day Adventist:  https://benspackman.com/2020/09/interpreting-science-and-scripture-joseph-fielding-smith-seventh-day-adventists-and-hermeneutics-in-lds-history/ ), we will mess up in understanding what is actually the Restored Gospel and what are the ideas of men.  If some of the ideas of traditional Christianity (antiCatholicism anyone? Curse of Cain) are a part of the current history of our faith, the history of traditional Christianity is also our history.

Wow, this is good. I was just about to write the same theme, but using the illustration of the history of Mexico and Spain. You beat me to it and did a better job than I would have done. Thanks.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Wow, this is good. I was just about to write the same theme, but using the illustration of the history of Mexico and Spain. You beat me to it and did a better job than I would have done. Thanks.

Don’t diminish yourself when you compliment others.  That part doesn’t make others feel better about themselves and for some, they will feel the need to support you rather than focusing on just feeling good about you liking them (like me feeling the need to scold you here ).  Plus you are a great writer.  My lecture for today.   
 

And thank you for the compliment.  It does make me feel good about my efforts.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Calm

[Navidad]

3 hours ago, Vanguard said:

Nav - You've misattributed the quotation. ; )

Well, that is certainly a possibility. But pretend for a minute that you have been a faithful member of what she calls "traditional Christianity" for your whole life. In that context and through that lens read again what she wrote. If I am part as a committed believer in a movement that has continually existed for 2000+ years in a continual crimson thread of the shed blood of Christ, and she deemed it the product of Satan, despisers of Christ, and pagan influencers, might you not be inclined to take that personally? It seems that hand painted signs on a street corner bother folks here. I understand that. And I condemn those signs Is it unrealistic to assume that her comments are the same thing with the same degree of offense to someone like me? Or, perhaps I don't understand your use of the term "misattributed?" Sorry if I misattributed, but what she said was highly offensive, and yes I know all about Hellenists, Isaiah Christ despisers, and certainly see Satan as an enemy and sometimes influencer in all churches, including yours and mine. Take care.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Navidad

[Navidad]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

Don’t diminish yourself when you compliment others.  That part doesn’t make others feel better about themselves and for some, they will feel the need to support you rather than focusing on just feeling good about you liking them (like me feeling the need to scold you here ).  Plus you are a great writer.  My lecture for today.   
 

And thank you for the compliment.  It does make me feel good about my efforts.

Wow, you sound like my mom . . . That is what she would have said to me. Oh, and that is now officially a second compliment! All my writing energy is now going into my thesis today ! 80,000 words, 468 footnotes and counting!

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

This is like saying the history of the Americas before the establishment of the United States is not part of our history (the people of the United States) because we don’t claim the US was established on the foundation of the cultures that existed here and instead point back to Europe and Greece, etc.

The Restored Gospel came back to the awareness of mortal men in the context of Traditional Christianity. We can’t understand why Joseph felt the need to ask God if we don’t understand the basic history of Christianity because that created the environment that nurtured and pushed Joseph to the Grove.  Therefore the history of traditional Christianity is also the history of the Restored Gospel, just as the history of the Americas that existed before the appearance of the US is the history of the US because it was the cradle and crucible that allowed the US to come to be.  To truly understand the US, one needs to understand all of what came before.

To me it’s pretending to believe we do not have roots in traditional Christianity, like someone who thinks they are nobility and therefore ignores the fact that their mother’s father was a ‘commoner’ that made a mint by first working at and then buying a junkyard and eventually owning a multitude of junkyards spread across the country by insisting that the descendants of all the siblings of that grandfather actually aren’t related to them at all and when you look at their pedigree chart, a quarter of it is missing.

Also we need to be aware that everyone who joined the Church in its early modern years came from a different belief system and brought with them ideas that influenced the expression of the Restoration, including adding in some of the ideas that were used in doctrine (Priesthood Ban).  The Restored Gospel was not dropped fully formed with a manual written by God into Joseph’s lap.  Unless we are aware of some of the beliefs that were brought into the Church by converts as well as those who borrow ideas from nonmembers (good and bad…the young earth creationism of Joseph Fielding Smith was not revealed, but acquired from his study of a Seventh Day Adventist:  https://benspackman.com/2020/09/interpreting-science-and-scripture-joseph-fielding-smith-seventh-day-adventists-and-hermeneutics-in-lds-history/ ), we will mess up in understanding what is actually the Restored Gospel and what are the ideas of men.  If some of the ideas of traditional Christianity (antiCatholicism anyone? Curse of Cain) are a part of the current history of our faith, the history of traditional Christianity is also our history.

I believe Joseph Smith was influenced by many writings that weren't traditional, such as hell for those unbaptized. Joseph restored a different Jesus as well. I like the changes he made and have no problem since I believe most or all religions are man made and even inspired men.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Tacenda

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Joseph restored a different Jesus as well.

There is only one Jesus.  He restored a different view of Jesus.

Does it make sense to say there is a different Tacenda than you just because your family may not see your posts that much, so they don’t think of you that way while we see little of your being a mother, etc. so that isn’t the biggest side of you we think of when we think of you or speak of on here?

I make a big deal of this because it makes it sound to me like Jesus as a person never existed and he is more like a character in a book and movie that I compare and say the movie Aragorn is a different Aragorn than the book Aragorn.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Calm