How mortality was introduced to Earth

[Kenngo1969]

On 5/9/2023 at 8:29 AM, theplains said:

I don't bash missionaries when I meet them.  But since they are novice at some of the meaty doctrine, they tend to need to consult with the more-seasoned elders for my questions.  

Whether you "bash" with them or not, please don't waste our Elders' time like that, Jimmy.  Their time is better spent seeking out those who wish, sincerely, to hear their message.  Please save them (and yourself) the time, and simply tell them you're not interested.

[theplains]

On 6/1/2023 at 11:31 AM, mfbukowski said:

So what fulfills this literally?  Or are you saying this has not happened yet? 

Future.

[theplains]

On 6/1/2023 at 1:23 PM, InCognitus said:

Right, but in saying "we which are alive", Paul is including himself in the group and is inferring that his generation would see the second coming of Christ, and "together with them" are those who are resurrected at the second coming of Christ.

Does Paul's statement apply to the future ones who will still be living at the Second Coming?

[theplains]

On 6/3/2023 at 12:29 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

Well done!  Is this, perhaps, the start of a trend, or is your engagement in this instance with one of your interlocutors only the rare exception to the rule?

Thank you. Stay tuned 🙂

 

[theplains]

On 6/3/2023 at 12:37 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

Their time is better spent seeking out those who wish, sincerely, to hear their message.  Please save them (and yourself) the time, and simply tell them you're not interested.

It is always a good use of time to share with them the message of the Eternal God, not a man and woman
who are taught to have become Gods. 

[InCognitus]

12 hours ago, theplains said:

Does Paul's statement apply to the future ones who will still be living at the Second Coming?

If you change the word "we" to "those", it makes sense for "those which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord".  The same could be said for 1 Cor 15:51-52, if you take Paul and his readers out of it and change "we" to "those":  "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

[theplains]

On 6/7/2023 at 10:42 PM, InCognitus said:

If you change the word "we" to "those", it makes sense for "those which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord".  The same could be said for 1 Cor 15:51-52, if you take Paul and his readers out of it and change "we" to "those":  "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

If my pastor were to preach the same message today, I think it would be appropriate to also
use "we" because it could happen in our lifetime.

Jesus used the same methodology when he spoke to his disciples about the end times in
Matthew 24:30-33

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and
great glory  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather
together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  [To his disciples
who were hearing his words] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender,
and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all
these things, know that ait is near, even at the doors".

His message to them is also applicable in our day.

That's my impression.

[InCognitus]

22 hours ago, theplains said:

If my pastor were to preach the same message today, I think it would be appropriate to also
use "we" because it could happen in our lifetime.

Jesus used the same methodology when he spoke to his disciples about the end times in
Matthew 24:30-33

"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the
earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and
great glory  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather
together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.  [To his disciples
who were hearing his words] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender,
and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:  So likewise ye, when ye shall see all
these things, know that ait is near, even at the doors".

His message to them is also applicable in our day.

That's my impression.

Except that Jesus used "they" and "ye" (you), which could be understood to be the future reader.  Not "we" (including himself) like Paul.  That's the big difference.

And obviously Paul's readers at Thessalonica understood him to be saying the second coming would be happening "soon" (in his lifetime and their lifetime), or otherwise (after Paul found out differently about the timing) he wouldn't have needed to correct them (and himself) in his 2nd epistle to them by telling them the second coming would not happen "soon" because there must be an apostasy first (2 Thes 2:1-3).

Edited June 13, 2023 by InCognitus

[theplains]

On 6/12/2023 at 4:16 PM, InCognitus said:

Except that Jesus used "they" and "ye" (you), which could be understood to be the future reader.  Not "we" (including himself) like Paul.  That's the big difference.

Those who heard Jesus speaking to them would understand it as it being pertinent to them.  But in hindsight,
we can understand it to also include the people in our present day.  2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 is about the future;
which ties in with Revelation 19:11-21.

[InCognitus]

15 hours ago, theplains said:

2 Thessalonians 2:3-12 is about the future;

No, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-7 is in the past, because Paul said it was already starting to happen in his day, see verse 7 ("For the mystery of iniquity doth already work").  The man of sin (Satan) is allowed to wreak havoc until Christ returns. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 describes the return of Christ when Satan's work will be destroyed, and that is in the future.  So the apostasy part of that chapter has already taken place.

15 hours ago, theplains said:

which ties in with Revelation 19:11-21.

There's no mention of an apostasy in Revelation 19:11-21, that's because it has already taken place (it's depicted in Revelation 12 by the "woman" going into the wilderness).  Paul said the apostasy (i.e. wolves entering into the church and "not sparing the flock") would happen after his "departing" in Acts 20:28-31. 

[theplains]

On 6/16/2023 at 1:16 AM, InCognitus said:

No, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-7 is in the past, because Paul said it was already starting to happen in his day, see verse 7 ("For the mystery of iniquity doth already work").  The man of sin (Satan) is allowed to wreak havoc until Christ returns. 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 describes the return of Christ when Satan's work will be destroyed, and that is in the future.  So the apostasy part of that chapter has already taken place.

I interpret that section a little differently.  I believe it is the Holy Spirit that is constraining the man of
sin, but in the future he [the man of sin] will be revealed with all his power, signs, and lying wonders.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out
of the way.  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of
his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  Even him, whose coming is after the
working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of
unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might
be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That
they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

This man of sin is most likely the beast mentioned in Revelation 19:19-20.

Edited June 19, 2023 by theplains

[mfbukowski]

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😉

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

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 Now that is funny. I love English.  I am really grateful I didn’t have to learn it as a second language though. 

[InCognitus]

5 hours ago, theplains said:

I interpret that section a little differently.  I believe it is the Holy Spirit that is constraining the man of
sin, but in the future he [the man of sin] will be revealed with all his power, signs, and lying wonders.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out
of the way.  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of
his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:  Even him, whose coming is after the
working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of
unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might
be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That
they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 

This man of sin is most likely the beast mentioned in Revelation 19:19-20.

So if you believe 2 Thes 2 is referring to the beast mentioned in Revelation 19:19-20, then how is it that this beast began his work at the time of Paul (i.e. "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work")?  Is the beast a man, or something else that can live from the time of Paul until the coming of Christ?

And you never explained how the apostasy is connected to Revelation 19. 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

 Now that is funny. I love English.  I am really grateful I didn’t have to learn it as a second language though. 

Yeah, but they are all like that, really.

That's why taking scriptures "literally" is impossible 99% of the time.  And in a translation, something as logically vague as religion imo simply CANNOT be taken literally.

My copy of the Quran doesn't even use the word "translation", it calls itself an "interpretation".

I wish Joseph used that word, especially on the Book of Abraham-an INSPIRED, interpretive, revelation- not really a "translation" at all.

[theplains]

On 6/19/2023 at 3:14 PM, InCognitus said:

So if you believe 2 Thes 2 is referring to the beast mentioned in Revelation 19:19-20, then how is it that this beast began his work at the time of Paul (i.e. "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work")?  Is the beast a man, or something else that can live from the time of Paul until the coming of Christ?

And you never explained how the apostasy is connected to Revelation 19. 

Satan and his demons have had their influence since the beginning.  But I believe that in the future, he
will be manifested visibly (as well as the false prophet) for the world to see.  I view the great apostasy
taking place in the future (2 Thess. 2:8-12), where the demonic person will deceive the world with power,
signs, and lying wonders (2 Thess 2:9; Rev. 13:3-4,13-14.  This will culminate with destruction at the
second coming of Christ (2 Thess. 2:8; Rev. 19:20).

I believe in a literal return of Christ and his literal casting of the beast and the false prophet into the
lake of fire when He returns.