How mortality was introduced to Earth

[mfbukowski]

21 minutes ago, theplains said:

I agree.  Fallible leaders can lead people astray with false teachings.

Good, I am glad you see that prophets are fallible. I see that as especially true in the Bible.  I am glad you see the Bible has errors.

Why then do you follow it so literally?  It seems self contradictory to me.  Please explain.

[theplains]

7 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Do you see the prophets and apostles in the Bible as infallible?  Could they also lead people astray?   Could the apostle Paul be responsible for leading people astray by implying that the second coming would happen in their life time?  Do you think that the leaders that God calls know all things perfectly?

Doctrinally speaking, I see the biblical writers as infallible. But I do see a case when Peter was rebuked by
Paul about originally eating like the Gentiles and then switching when the Jews came.  Like the NT disciples,
I also would teach that Jesus can return every day.  But there is correction (like in 1 and 2 Thessalonians)
where some were deceived into believing that the second coming had already occurred. 

I suppose 1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 could be viewed by Paul as applying to those in Paul's day or those in the
days involving the actual return of Christ.

Leaders should not teach things bordering on speculation.  There is plenty to teach which is already based
on scripture.

As for prophecy, and if we are questioning the validity of what Paul believed and taught, we should also look
closely at Joseph Smith and those who followed after him (especially in light of D&C 84).  One word of caution:
this article does not portray LDS leaders in a positive light. It is titled Can We Trust The Prophecies Of Joseph
Smith?

[theplains]

17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Good, I am glad you see that prophets are fallible. I see that as especially true in the Bible.  I am glad you see the Bible has errors.

Why then do you follow it so literally?  It seems self contradictory to me.  Please explain.

Would you open another thread . I am aware of some translations that do not have the same rendering of words
as per the original manuscripts but I don't see doctrinal inconsistencies.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Would you open another thread . I am aware of some translations that do not have the same rendering of words
as per the original manuscripts but I don't see doctrinal inconsistencies.

No, open your own thread, I have no need for it, nor the time.

Book: Missionary Pal, Keith Marston, p26,-28.  Free pdf downloads.

This was from the good old days of Mormon Bible Bashing with y'all.

There are also copies to buy- it will give you hours and hours of bashing pleasure! 

Missionary Pal https://a.co/d/hdXrZrZ

☺️

Edited May 5, 2023 by mfbukowski

[InCognitus]

59 minutes ago, theplains said:

Doctrinally speaking, I see the biblical writers as infallible.

Unfortunately not all the apostles and prophets mentioned in the Bible were also biblical writers, so that's a totally different question.  Luke, for example, was neither an apostle or a prophet, but he wrote about them.

Would all the apostles of Jesus be doctrinally correct in all their teachings, even when they didn't fully understand some of the things they taught?  How long did it take for the apostles to understand the teachings of Jesus when he was with them?   And even after Jesus ascended to heaven, did they fully understand all things?

 Take Peter, for example, when he received his vision of the great sheet coming down out of heaven that had in it all kinds of animals in it, and he was told to "kill and eat".  Did he fully understand the meaning of that vision right away?  Would he be leading people astray if he misinterpreted the meaning?

1 hour ago, theplains said:

I suppose 1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 could be viewed by Paul as applying to those in Paul's day or those in the
days involving the actual return of Christ.

Not just those verses, but 1 Cor 15:51-52 as well.  He says "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed... the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".  Or in the Thessalonians verses, "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep... the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds".   Paul was including himself in that context.  Is that doctrinally correct?  Or was he wrong in teaching that?

1 hour ago, theplains said:

Leaders should not teach things bordering on speculation.  There is plenty to teach which is already based
on scripture.

Was Paul speculating about himself being alive at the second coming?  Or was he teaching things based on scripture?  What about the people that believed what Paul said about the second coming happening in his lifetime? 

4 hours ago, theplains said:

As for prophecy, and if we are questioning the validity of what Paul believed and taught, we should also look
closely at Joseph Smith and those who followed after him (especially in light of D&C 84).  One word of caution:
this article does not portray LDS leaders in a positive light. It is titled Can We Trust The Prophecies Of Joseph
Smith?

We should compare all prophets and apostles equally, and not try to view the prophets and apostles of today any differently than those written about in the Old and New Testaments. 

As for your article, the answer is yes, we can trust the prophecies of Joseph Smith.   See:  https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Alleged_false_prophecies_of_Joseph_Smith

It's easy to claim "false prophecy" when the statements are misconstrued or taken out of context, like those in that article.  Don't be fooled by those tactics. 

[theplains]

On 5/5/2023 at 2:23 PM, mfbukowski said:

it will give you hours and hours of bashing pleasure! 

I don't bash missionaries when I meet them.  But since they are novice at some of the meaty doctrine,
they tend to need to consult with the more-seasoned elders for my questions.  

[theplains]

On 5/5/2023 at 5:25 PM, InCognitus said:

Would all the apostles of Jesus be doctrinally correct in all their teachings, even when they didn't fully understand some of the things they taught?  How long did it take for the apostles to understand the teachings of Jesus when he was with them?   And even after Jesus ascended to heaven, did they fully understand all things?

 Take Peter, for example, when he received his vision of the great sheet coming down out of heaven that had in it all kinds of animals in it, and he was told to "kill and eat".  Did he fully understand the meaning of that vision right away?  Would he be leading people astray if he misinterpreted the meaning?

The disciples did not even believe the death and resurrection of Christ until afterwards.   I can't ascertain what
level of "all things" the apostles understood them at.  But I am certain they were teaching the truth. When error
was found among some less knowledgeable Christians, a correction or further explanation was required. Case in
point being Aquila and Priscilla in Act 18:26.

He did not fully understand the teaching originally, but the Holy Spirit later revealed it to him (Act 10:14-15). He
then repeated it to others (Act 11:8-9). As for the eating of foods, he was eventually rebuked by Paul because
his actions were deceiving others if they also decided to do as Peter did.

 

On 5/5/2023 at 5:25 PM, InCognitus said:

Not just those verses, but 1 Cor 15:51-52 as well.  He says "we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed... the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed".  Or in the Thessalonians verses, "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep... the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds".   Paul was including himself in that context.  Is that doctrinally correct?  Or was he wrong in teaching that?

Since Paul did not know when Christ was returning and that it could actually be in his lifetime, it would be doctrinally
correct for him to say that. This saying by Paul could also be repeated by those who will actually live to see the return
of Christ and they would be teaching correctly.

I believe Jesus can return today, but in all honesty I am not ready.
 

On 5/5/2023 at 5:25 PM, InCognitus said:

As for your article, the answer is yes, we can trust the prophecies of Joseph Smith.   See:  https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/Alleged_false_prophecies_of_Joseph_Smith

It's easy to claim "false prophecy" when the statements are misconstrued or taken out of context, like those in that article.  Don't be fooled by those tactics. 

Both sites, the ones provided, make some valid points, but I have to say that the statements made by
some LDS leaders were not taken out of context.  The sections starts with "Early Mormon leaders
made it quite clear the word “generation” meant those who were alive when the revelation was given
in 1832.

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, theplains said:

I don't bash missionaries when I meet them.  But since they are novice at some of the meaty doctrine,
they tend to need to consult with the more-seasoned elders for my questions.  

FYI That book is out of print, and was never "officially" used- it was  not published by the church- I was joking about "bashing". 

 

[InCognitus]

12 hours ago, theplains said:

The disciples did not even believe the death and resurrection of Christ until afterwards.   I can't ascertain what
level of "all things" the apostles understood them at.  But I am certain they were teaching the truth. When error
was found among some less knowledgeable Christians, a correction or further explanation was required. Case in
point being Aquila and Priscilla in Act 18:26.

This is a good example of the problem, because Apollos was teaching the best he could do according to his current understanding.  Apollos was an "eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures", and he was "instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John."  (Acts 18:25)  He was teaching by the spirit, and taught boldly.  But his understanding was incomplete.  As soon as more information was available to him he accepted it. 

The point is that the Lord used the man even though he taught some things wrong or incompletely.  That's the way it works for all of the Lord's servants.  

12 hours ago, theplains said:

He did not fully understand the teaching originally, but the Holy Spirit later revealed it to him (Act 10:14-15). He
then repeated it to others (Act 11:8-9). As for the eating of foods, he was eventually rebuked by Paul because
his actions were deceiving others if they also decided to do as Peter did.

So you agree then that it is sometimes a process, that even though these people don't have a complete knowledge of things, they can still be used for the Lord's purposes.  This is true of all of God's prophets and apostles.

12 hours ago, theplains said:

Since Paul did not know when Christ was returning and that it could actually be in his lifetime, it would be doctrinally
correct for him to say that. This saying by Paul could also be repeated by those who will actually live to see the return
of Christ and they would be teaching correctly.

So if President Nelson were to say tomorrow that we (including himself) will be alive when Jesus returns, and then 100 years later Jesus still hasn't returned, you would say President Nelson was teaching things correctly, right?   (Well, probably not you, since you would also likely be dead 100 years from now, but the people living 100 years from now). Is that how you see it? 

12 hours ago, theplains said:

Both sites, the ones provided, make some valid points

I couldn't find any valid point on the site you posted.

12 hours ago, theplains said:

The sections starts with "Early Mormon leaders
made it quite clear the word “generation” meant those who were alive when the revelation was given
in 1832.

Just because some people interpreted "generation" that way doesn't mean that's what the Lord meant in his revelation to Joseph Smith.  A similar thing happened with Paul and others, in thinking that Jesus would return in their lifetime, partly because of what Jesus said in verses like Matthew 16:28, Luke 9:27, and Matthew 24:34.  Would you judge whether or not Jesus was prophesying falsely based on other people misinterpreting his meaning?  If not, then why judge Joseph Smith as a false prophet based on other people misinterpreting revelations given through him?

Edited May 10, 2023 by InCognitus

[theplains]

On 5/9/2023 at 3:05 PM, mfbukowski said:

FYI That book is out of print, and was never "officially" used- it was  not published by the church- I was joking about "bashing". 

 

Thank you for the clarification  😀

[theplains]

On 5/9/2023 at 11:24 PM, InCognitus said:

So if President Nelson were to say tomorrow that we (including himself) will be alive when Jesus returns, and then 100 years later Jesus still hasn't returned, you would say President Nelson was teaching things correctly, right?   (Well, probably not you, since you would also likely be dead 100 years from now, but the people living 100 years from now). Is that how you see it? 

I think Paul saying "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent
them which are asleep" is something applicable to all Christians (present and future).  It is not
the same as saying "we [my present audience back when I wrote this letter] will be alive to see
the Second Coming.

As for the site I mentioned before, LDS leaders still continued to believe and teach that "generation"
meant their time, that they would be alive to see the temple reared in their time.

Here are a few quotes:

They are holy places, and they will be held sacred even as Jackson County..” “and I shall yet see
the day that I will go back there, with brother Brigham and with thousands and millions of others,
and we will go precisely according to the dedication of the Prophet of the living God. Talk to me
about my having any dubiety on my mind about these things being fulfilled.—I am just as confident
of it as I am that I am called to be a saviour of men, and no power can hinder it.” (President Heber
C. Kimball, December 17, 1857 Journal of Discourses, Vol 6. p. 190).

I expect to live to be an old man, and to go back with the saints to the land of Jackson County.”
(President B. Young; “God grant it.”) (1857 Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 221)

Brethren, I shall go to Jackson County with thousands of this people who will be faithful to their
integrity; but we cannot go back until we have built some good houses.” (1861 Journal of Discourses,
Vol. 8, p. 350, Disclosure by Heber C. Kimball).

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

Thank you for the clarification  😀

Yes, it was just put together by an apologist, I believe,  who was into "bashing" as an instant response tool in debates etc.  I just want to make it clear that it is in no way official, or even that what it quotes is actually relevant to any questions being asked.  As far as I know, it is just one guy coming up with his golden responses in debates and there is no scholarship behind any of the quotes- but I could be wrong.  It's just a book I found in a store and thought that it MIGHT point out scriptures that I had passed over in thinking about these issues.   I bought it for personal study purposes, to be evaluated if and when I found the quotes useful.

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, theplains said:

I think Paul saying "we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent
them which are asleep" is something applicable to all Christians (present and future).  It is not
the same as saying "we [my present audience back when I wrote this letter] will be alive to see
the Second Coming.

Do you see how such a statement could be misleading to someone living in that time, and they might think that the second coming would happen in their lifetime?  

6 hours ago, theplains said:

As for the site I mentioned before, LDS leaders still continued to believe and teach that "generation"
meant their time, that they would be alive to see the temple reared in their time.

So what if some people misinterpreted what Joseph Smith said?  Does that prove that the revelation was false, or does that just mean that some people didn't fully know how to interpret the revelation? 

We can always trust the revelations of Joseph Smith and other prophets, but we may not always understand them fully or interpret them correctly.

Do you think some people, perhaps even Paul, could have misinterpreted what Jesus said when he said: "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matthew 24:34)?  What "generation" did Jesus had in mind?  If people misunderstood what Jesus meant, would that be the fault of Jesus or his prophecy?

Or what about this one?

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."  (Matthew 16:27–28)  Is Jesus at fault if someone thinks that means that Jesus is coming back in their lifetime?

[theplains]

On 5/11/2023 at 6:15 PM, InCognitus said:

Do you see how such a statement could be misleading to someone living in that time, and they might think that the second coming would happen in their lifetime?  

I see what you mean.  Either the prophecy is wrong (it was never fulfilled within the 
generation) or the prophecy was misinterpreted by leaders after the time and their followers 
were led astray (who kept holding onto the dream that it would still happen in their lifetime 
and in the lifetime of anyone else included in that generation time frame - let's say 1832 
to 1932 or whatever timeframe a 'generation' referred to).

I found this resource and did a search for Jackson.

https://www.lds-general-conference.org/

These are just a few samples of the GC talks that referenced this return to Jackson for the 
planned building of the city and temple.  I'll list only six of them and then continue with 
D&C 101 and 103.  You'll notice from the searches that they decrease substantially as the 
1930s approach.  It would appear that the theme is that a generation represented 100 years
and that it would occur in their lifetime.

21, 1882, Joseph F. Smith

When God leads the people back to Jackson County, how will he do it? Let me picture to you 
how some of us may be gathered and led to Jackson County. I think I see two or three hundred 
thousand people wending their way across the great plain enduring the nameless hardships of 
the journey, herding and guarding their cattle by day and by night, and defending themselves 
and little ones from foes on the right hand and on the left, as when they came here. They 
will find the journey back to Jackson County will be as real as when they came out here. 

22, 1898, Lorenzo Snow

But you will see the day, if you live properly, observe the Word of Wisdom and do that which 
is required, you will go back to Jackson county, many of you whom I am addressing this 
afternoon. I am sure of this.

30, 1921, Melvin J. Ballard

Well, I say, as I saw these things, my soul was stirred, and I said, surely God is at work 
moulding the sentiments of men, altering their will and purpose for the accomplishment of 
his will and his purpose. A TEMPLE WILL BE BUILT IN JACKSON COUNTY, MO. I remember in the 
city of Independence, to which President Grant made reference this morning, the feeling and 
the sentiment of the people are friendly toward the Latter-day Saints, that one of the 
prominent gentlemen of that city, in the commercial club, said to me that he would be glad 
to see the " Mormons " build their contemplated temple in Independence, and suggested that 
he thought they could raise $100,000 in Independence to help us build it. That temple will 
be built, as welt as other things that have been projected by the inspired servants of God, 
for the Lord knows how to work it out.

29, 1922, Andrew Jenson

Perhaps we would have called it Zion, the New Jerusalem, or the capital of the world, fro 
which the law should go forth in the Lord's own due time to all the nations of the earth. 
Jackson county, Missouri, is the one locality about which the Lord said, " Zion shall not 
be moved out of its place, " and while we are now here in these mountains and Salt Lake 
City contains our central stakes at the present time, Jackson county, Missouri, will 
nevertheless be a capital, a headquarters, the place where a great temple shall be built 
unto which Christ shall come in his own due time. We are proud, also that we did not become 
discouraged because we were driven from our first location. For after the mobbers had 
robbed us of our homes in Jackson county, we had courage enough to cross the Missouri river 
and try again, and thus we became successful colonizers also in Clay county, Missouri, in 
1833-1836.

10, 1928, B. H. Roberts

Also in those early decades we had in our minds the idea of finding and establishing Zion, 
and afterward, through the revelations of God, we found where the center place would be and 
could bear witness of that; and some of the saints from the East gathered into Jackson County 
and founded the city of Zion, where a temple was to be built, the plans of which were revealed 
to the Prophet. Then came on persecution and expulsion from Jackson County. Then the great 
point of interest for a number of years was " the redemption of Zion " and the re- establishment 
of the saints upon their lands and the building of the city and the temple. Well, that does 
not now play so important a part in the message we have for the world in the preaching of the 
gospel. Also we had revealed to us the doctrine, the great doctrine, of consecration of all 
our possessions and the receiving back of a stewardship from our consecrations. 

5, 1929, Anthony W. Ivins

The message which they bring to us is this: that the Lord has revealed to them that the time 
has come when the temple is to be erected upon the temple lot at Jackson county, that this 
scripture which I have read, from section 84 of the D &C,; may be fulfilled, because they 
call attention to the fact that the generation which lived at the time that the revelation 
was given has about passed away.

The D&C 84 revelation does not stand in isolation. According to the intro notes of D&C 101,
"Mobs had driven them from their homes in Jackson County".  D&C 101:44-58 is an good description
of how the saints lost the land due to their disobedience and then the enemy came in. They 
are exhorted to regain their land in armed combat.

D&C 103 is a revelation given a few months after D&C 101.  Verse 21 instills further confidence
in the saints.  "Verily, verily I say unto you, that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., is the 
man to whom I likened the servant to whom the Lord of the vineyard spake in the parable 
which I have given unto you".

"Man" is linked back to D&C 101:44,55.  This is a reference to Joseph Smith.

"A certain nobleman had a spot of land, very choice; and he said unto his servants: Go ye 
unto my vineyard, even upon this very choice piece of land, and plant twelve olive trees".

"And the lord of the vineyard said unto one of his servants: Go and gather together the 
residue of my servants, and take all the strength of mine house, which are my warriors, my 
young men, and they that are of middle age also among all my servants, who are the strength 
of mine house, save those only whom I have appointed to tarry".

I would also add verses 56-58 to further detail what Joseph Smith and the saints should
do.

"And go ye straightway unto the land of my vineyard, and redeem my vineyard; for it is mine; 
I have bought it with money. Therefore, get ye straightway unto my land; break down the 
walls of mine enemies; throw down their tower, and scatter their watchmen. And inasmuch as 
they gather together against you, avenge me of mine enemies, that by and by I may come with 
the residue of mine house and possess the land".

The prophecy for an armed combat to retake the lands is given again in D&C 105:26-33. Much 
more information is found in chapter 7 (Faces Eastward) of the book "Coming of the Lord".

http://www.scribd.com/doc/62792449/Coming-of-the-Lord

It denies however that a generation is a set number of years like 100. But it does not 
account for the decreasing frequency of the mention of  "Jackson" in General Conference 
talks as the Latter-day Saints approached 100 years after Joseph Smith's revelation.
Maybe the saints in those days really did believe a generation was 100 years in length
so they held out hope for all those years instead of believing Joseph Smith issued a
false prophecy. 

The term "generation" is mentioned in Matthew 1:17.  It has a different meaning than one
hundred years as some would reckon it today.

"So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David 
until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying 
away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations" 

Regardless of the decreasing frequency of "Jackson", the prophecy of D&C 101/103 [and by
extension D&C 84 - the building of a city and temple in that generation] failed with the 
death of the "servant" (who is identified as Joseph Smith, D&C 103:21).

"And the servant [Joseph Smith] said unto his lord: When shall these things be? And he said 
unto his servant [Joseph Smith]: When I will; go ye straightway, and do all things whatsoever 
I have commanded you" (D&C 101:59-60).

The Lord's command to the servant [Joseph Smith] came a few months later (D&C 103:20-40).
That was not fulfilled. 

So a new prophecy was given. The "Lord" then told Brigham Young that "Zion shall be redeemed 
in mine own due time" (D&C 136:18). 

[InCognitus]

52 minutes ago, theplains said:

I see what you mean.  Either the prophecy is wrong (it was never fulfilled within the 
generation) or the prophecy was misinterpreted by leaders after the time and their followers 
were led astray (who kept holding onto the dream that it would still happen in their lifetime 
and in the lifetime of anyone else included in that generation time frame - let's say 1832 
to 1932 or whatever timeframe a 'generation' referred to).

Or, it was never a prophecy to begin with.  We are talking about multiple things here (like Paul inferring that he would be alive at the second coming).

But such is also the case for the commandment to build a temple in Doctrine and Covenants 84:2-5.  "An house shall be built" was a commandment to build the temple, not a prophecy, and the sincere best efforts of the saints to do so was accepted by the Lord, see Doctrine and Covenants 124:49 and 51:

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, that when I give a commandment to any of the sons of men to do a work unto my name, and those sons of men go with all their might and with all they have to perform that work, and cease not their diligence, and their enemies come upon them and hinder them from performing that work, behold, it behooveth me to require that work no more at the hands of those sons of men, but to accept of their offerings.   And the iniquity and transgression of my holy laws and commandments I will visit upon the heads of those who hindered my work, unto the third and fourth generation, so long as they repent not, and hate me, saith the Lord God.  Therefore, for this cause have I accepted the offerings of those whom I commanded to build up a city and a house unto my name, in Jackson county, Missouri, and were hindered by their enemies, saith the Lord your God."  (Doctrine and Covenants 124:49–51) 

1 hour ago, theplains said:

It denies however that a generation is a set number of years like 100. But it does not 
account for the decreasing frequency of the mention of  "Jackson" in General Conference 
talks as the Latter-day Saints approached 100 years after Joseph Smith's revelation.
Maybe the saints in those days really did believe a generation was 100 years in length
so they held out hope for all those years instead of believing Joseph Smith issued a
false prophecy. 

The term "generation" is mentioned in Matthew 1:17.  It has a different meaning than one
hundred years as some would reckon it today.

The term "generation" can mean different things in different contexts.  You are wrong to pick one definition and apply it universally.  It doesn't need to be 100 years, or however many years, even in the New Testament, like when Jesus said, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Matthew 24:34)  The same can be said of when Jesus used it in Luke 9:41, "O faithless and perverse generation".

1 hour ago, theplains said:

The Lord's command to the servant [Joseph Smith] came a few months later (D&C 103:20-40).
That was not fulfilled. 

Yes, it was a commandment, not a prophecy.  So you do understand after all.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

I see what you mean.  Either the prophecy is wrong (it was never fulfilled within the 
generation) or the prophecy was misinterpreted by leaders after the time and their followers 
were led astray (who kept holding onto the dream that it would still happen in their lifetime 
and in the lifetime of anyone else included in that generation time frame - let's say 1832 
to 1932 or whatever timeframe a 'generation' referred to).

And suppose the generation is actually Joseph's dispenation?

Perhaps it could mean the time of the entire dispensation, with a return to Missouri, perhaps after unpredictable events for protection, a fallen economy, or return to a smaller protectible area, even climate change, a need for otherwise unavailable fresh water on the coasts, soil fertility problems except where mighty rivers still flow, who knows - just before the Savior comes, before the end of Joseph's "generation/dispensation" and the Lord's return.

If one seeks a literal explanation, that's the direction I would take.

It sounds radical and is, but as we head toward cryptocurrency on a governmental level, the world of 666 seems like it might be seen as a pretty literal prophesy, which can also be taken figuratively, actually fulfilled literally.

Or it might also remain in the "wacko-belief" category.

Truth is whatever "actually" becomes human experience. 

Who knows?

 

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

And suppose the generation is actually Joseph's dispenation?

Perhaps it could mean the time of the entire dispensation, with a return to Missouri, perhaps after unpredictable events for protection, a fallen economy, or return to a smaller protectible area, even climate change, a need for otherwise unavailable fresh water on the coasts, soil fertility problems except where mighty rivers still flow, who knows - just before the Savior comes, before the end of Joseph's "generation/dispensation" and the Lord's return.

If one seeks a literal explanation, that's the direction I would take.

It sounds radical and is, but as we head toward cryptocurrency on a governmental level, the world of 666 seems like it might be seen as a pretty literal prophesy, which can also be taken figuratively, actually fulfilled literally.

Or it might also remain in the "wacko-belief" category.

Truth is whatever "actually" becomes human experience. 

Who knows?

 

 

And just to add this, the Mississippi river produces, adding in all the rivers that add into it, more water than most of the rivers in the world.

Who knew?

Not me!  That, and the rivers that go into it might be the last in the fertile mid-west!   

https://www.nps.gov/miss/riverfacts.htm#:~:text=Volume,into the Gulf of Mexico.

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by mfbukowski
Fact check

[theplains]

On 5/19/2023 at 2:37 PM, InCognitus said:

like Paul inferring that he would be alive at the second coming

Paul's exhortation can be extended to all Christians like the gospel message was not solely for Christ's
immediate audience.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord
in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord".

Together with them is a reference to those who had died in Christ, not only the Thessalonians.

[theplains]

On 5/19/2023 at 2:58 PM, mfbukowski said:

It sounds radical and is, but as we head toward cryptocurrency on a governmental level, the world of 666 seems like it might be seen as a pretty literal prophesy, which can also be taken figuratively, actually fulfilled literally.

Makes sense.   But I see Revelation 13:1-15 being fulfilled literally.

"And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to
do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image
to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the
image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would
not worship the image of the beast should be killed". 

[mfbukowski]

19 minutes ago, theplains said:

Makes sense.   But I see Revelation 13:1-15 being fulfilled literally.

"And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to
do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image
to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the
image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would
not worship the image of the beast should be killed". 

So what fulfills this literally?  Or are you saying this has not happened yet? 

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

Paul's exhortation can be extended to all Christians like the gospel message was not solely for Christ's
immediate audience.

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord
in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord".

Together with them is a reference to those who had died in Christ, not only the Thessalonians.

Right, but in saying "we which are alive", Paul is including himself in the group and is inferring that his generation would see the second coming of Christ, and "together with them" are those who are resurrected at the second coming of Christ.  So he clearly infers that the second coming and resurrection would occur during his lifetime.  

[teddyaware]

57 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

Right, but in saying "we which are alive", Paul is including himself in the group and is inferring that his generation would see the second coming of Christ, and "together with them" are those who are resurrected at the second coming of Christ.  So he clearly infers that the second coming and resurrection would occur during his lifetime.  

It’s hard to believe that this great prophet, a seer who had several visions of eternity, including one in which he was carried up by the Spirit to the “third heaven” (very likely a vision of the three degrees of glory like the vision found in Doctrine and Covenants 76) could have been such an ignoramus when it comes to the eschatological timeline of the Lord? How could a prophet of such great Old Testament knowledge and insight been so totally clueless when it comes to the last days prophecies of Isaiah, the prophesied eventual building of the city of the New Jerusalem, and the establishment of a mighty worldwide Zion of God by the gentiles, all of which had to be fulfilled prior to the Second Coming? The expression “we which are alive” is simply another way of saying “the members of the church who are alive at that time.” Since the dawn of the restoration, the leaders of the Church have always appealed to Paul as a prophet of God who knew a latter-day restoration of the gospel would be required because of a coming great apostasy.

 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who oppose the and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (2 Thessalonians 2)

Edited June 1, 2023 by teddyaware

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, teddyaware said:

It’s hard to believe that this great prophet, a seer who had several visions of eternity, including one in which he was carried up by the Spirit to the “third heaven” (very likely a vision of the three degrees of glory like the vision found in Doctrine and Covenants 76) could have been such an ignoramus when it comes to the eschatological timeline of the Lord? How could a prophet of such great Old Testament knowledge and insight been so totally clueless when it comes to the last days prophecies of Isaiah, the prophesied eventual building of the city of the New Jerusalem, and the establishment of a mighty worldwide Zion of God by the gentiles, all of which had to be fulfilled prior to the Second Coming? The expression “we which are alive” is simply another way of saying “the members of the church who are alive at that time.” Since the dawn of the restoration, the leaders of the Church have always appealed to Paul as a prophet of God who knew a latter-day restoration of the gospel would be required because of a coming great apostasy.

 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who oppose the and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (2 Thessalonians 2)

I think there are a lot of reasons that Paul could have been not so clear on the timeline at first.  Even Joseph Smith had questions about the timeline, and the answer he got about it wasn't clear to him (i.e. D&C 130:14-17)

Paul seems to have recognized the problem he created between the writing of his first and second letter to the Thessalonians, almost as if he realized that his comments in his first letter were misleading by implying that the second coming would happen soon, which is why he had to explain why it would not happen soon because of the apostasy in his second letter.   I don't know if that means he first learned that there would be an apostasy in between the two letters, or if he recognized that he just wasn't being clear in the first letter, because he seemed to be correcting the panic in the first two verses of that chapter you are quoting:

"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand." (2 Thessalonians 2:1–2)

Edited June 1, 2023 by InCognitus

[mfbukowski]

 

OH MY GOSH!

I was digging some tomatoes in my back yard and got knocked out and when I awoke I found a thumb drive in my hand which when I plugged it in, contained this letter telliing us exactly how Mortality was Introduced to Earth!  It was covered in mud and appears ancient- but how could that be POSSIBLE??!! 😨

Quote

 

Dear Earth,

I'd like to introduce myself, my name is "Mortality".   I don't really exist yet so you can't really call me a "name" yet because nothing exists that goes through the process that my name represents.

 I am a "human word", but at this point you are a ball of compressed matter, and have not learned what that name really means and the significance of it.   Sorry to give you the bad news, but pretty soon, at least relative to your whole history as a planet, you will find little things running around on your solid surface, after you have one, and you may find that a little itchy.  Some of these little things might start digging into your surface a little- it will just be a bit uncomfortable but nothing too bothersome.

But those little things will eventually grow into bigger things that will be able to talk to each other, kind of like the way we are talking now- spiritually through our different types of intelligence and purpose, but their intelligence will be shared in an extremely primitive manner- by vibrations in the atmosphere instead of doing it just by thought as we are doing it now.  Yes, they will make various gutteral "sounds" by vibrating the atmosphere in a very very limited area for communication !!   I know that is hard to even imagine at this point.

These little things- let's call them "creatures" for now, will get smarter and smarter and eventually a bunch of them will refine this grunting and noise-making into what they call "words" which they will pretend "represents" you and other processes- but of course we know that it is impossible that grunts and noises can "represent" you - as if the grunts ARE your processes- but these undeveloped intelligences will not know the difference between grunts and the experiences they are having.

These particular tiny intelligences will be called "humans"- in their grunts that "word" again is meant to "represent" their kind of being, yet of course we know the logical problem with that assumption.

All these tiny intelligences are built to take in matter and through various process not yet invented, for a period of rotations, then they will cease doing so, because their matter is fragile.  So they will use a small portion of your chemicals and take them in and use that as energy to allow them to move around rather without purpose at first, except taking in more fuel from you simply and eventually they break down and cannot operate any more.  But don't worry- the elements of these obnoxious devices will simply turn back into your elements- and so this process will not harm you in any way.  In a sense you are providing them with a surface on which to reproduce and keep operating- and of course their continuing in operation will become a serious concern once they figure out that eventually, each of them will be unable to function any more, and their elements will return to you.

They will find the fact of giving you back their elements is a serious concern, since it appears to them that that break-down of elements means they cease to exist, yet we of course know that material is eternal, but they will still face this cessation of physical movement as frightening- and anticipate it actually fear it!!  As intelligences we know that intelligence never ceases- it is "eternal"- which is another word which simply is supposed to represent continuity of phases of matter that we already know never ceases- just the various states change between refined and heavy matter.

So anyway, they develop the word for this cessation of motion and return to elements by MY NAME- "Mortality".   Again it is supposed to represent a fearful cessation of progress when we know it is simply one more phase of intelligence and matter working together as is set clearly in the Creator's Plan.

So "Mortalty" is only my name which will not exist as a name until after the creatures have enough intelligence to discover the cessation of their present state of existence and return of elements to you, so we won't directly meet for a VERY VERY many rotations.

I just wanted you to know that perhaps at that time, when the humans invent the word, you will know that it is their belief that the Creator's overall plan is nearing its end and it may be time for a new phase for all of us as intelligences and material beings in our progression.

I wish you well in your journey, and will be glad to meet you when humans fear me due to their ignorance of Creator's plan, and invent me as a state which never exists experientially in reality- until they themselves experience it personally.    They don't understand eternal life yet and never will understand it very well- so we eternals need to be kind to them dispite their stupidity.

Yours always,

Mortality.

 

 

[Kenngo1969]

On 5/5/2023 at 11:04 AM, theplains said:

Doctrinally speaking, I see the biblical writers as infallible. But I do see a case when Peter was rebuked by Paul about originally eating like the Gentiles and then switching when the Jews came.  Like the NT disciples, I also would teach that Jesus can return every day.  But there is correction (like in 1 and 2 Thessalonians)
where some were deceived into believing that the second coming had already occurred. 

I suppose 1 Thessalonians 4:15–17 could be viewed by Paul as applying to those in Paul's day or those in the days involving the actual return of Christ.  Leaders should not teach things bordering on speculation.  There is plenty to teach which is already based on scripture.

As for prophecy, and if we are questioning the validity of what Paul believed and taught, we should also look closely at Joseph Smith and those who followed after him (especially in light of D&C 84).  One word of caution: this article does not portray LDS leaders in a positive light. It is titled Can We Trust The Prophecies Of Joseph
Smith?

Way to go, Jimmy!  I've got to hand it to you: This goes against your usual modus operandi, in which you throw a bomb by starting a thread on an idiosyncratic (and probably incendiary) topic and then do nothing else but sit back and see how the Latter-day Saints respond, avoiding further participation in the thread.  This is the first time I've seen you engage someone by answering a question that one of your interlocutors posed to you.

Well done!  Is this, perhaps, the start of a trend, or is your engagement in this instance with one of your interlocutors only the rare exception to the rule?