Biblical Archaeology and Book of Mormon Archaeology

[Calm]

6 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

I hope that Christians will download "Lesson 21-Man May Become Like God" to be prepared when the fulltime Mormon missionaries come knocking at their doors.  There is actually so very much history in the evolution of Mormonism, from 1830 until 1844, and from 1844 until the migration from Nauvoo to the Utah Valley, in 1848.  The Brigham Young experience and the Adam-God doctrine, from 1851 until Young's death in 1877, is another expansive era of history that the Mormon Church has chronicled quite incorrectly in order to cover-up the Adam-God doctrine era, which was maintained from 1851 until 1895 and was placed into the temple endowment as the "Lecture Before the Veil" and documented in the book written by Edward Tullidge in 1877 and blessed by Brigham Young, "Women of Mormondom." Tullidge's book was dedicated to Eliza R. Snow, the brother of Mormon prophet Lorenzo Snow, who concocted the infamous saying, "As Man is, God once was, and as God is man may become."  "Lesson 21-Man May Become Like God" is a restatement of Smith, Jr.'s King Follett discourse and Lorenzo Snow's refinement of the pagan polytheistic theology.  

Anyone who hangs around this board for very long is already aware of this, but thanks for posting Lesson 21.  It is a fun find.

We have had some interesting (and not so interesting) discussions over the years. (I miss Dr. Steuss and so many long absent posters, made some good friends and interesting discussion partners over the years)

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/58450-as-man-now-is-god-once-was-as-god-is-now-man-may-be/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/48238-monolatry-existence-of-other-gods/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/23463-the-lorenzo-snow-couplet-and-gordon-b-hinckley/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/67166-the-famous-couplet/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/26305-do-elder-oaks-and-pres-hinckley-have-different-views/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/59683-was-heavenly-father-the-savior-of-another-world/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/56594-seeking-a-clear-definition-of-exaltation/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/75294-ontology-the-transcendence-of-god-and-theosis/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/55283-did-joseph-smith-restore-theosis-part-three-the-book-of-mormon/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/25909-early-christian-theosis-quotes/

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/59811-the-orthodox-church-and-the-lds-church/

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Calm

[NRnowlinMA]

I've heard the arguments, but don't accept them, about Roberts playing the devil's advocate in "Studies of the Book of Mormon." Your originality in coming up with your own thoughts is really dismal.  FAIR is a BYU-Mormon corporation supported apologetic machine and utilizes dated materials to support its Mormon supporting positions. If Roberts' commissioned study of the Book of Mormon was a support of the Book of Mormon, why wasn't it published to the Mormon people after Roberts's completion, around 1925?  Wikipedia offers a much more objective survey of Robert's work:  Studies of the Book of Mormon - Wikipedia   The Institute for Religious Research also had a few facts to offer about B.H. Roberts contribution to truth and objectivity:  A Mormon General Authority's Doubts About the Authenticity of the Book of Mormon | Institute for Religious Research (irr.org)   Most "Christian" scholars read the "Studies of the Book of Mormon" as Roberts' opinion that Smith, Jr. could have easily plagiarized from "A View of the Hebrews."  Roberts also was also extremely concerned about the anachronisms in the BOM, especially the horse and the elephant.   

Just as Hugh B. Brown stated to Thomas S. Ferguson that the BOA should be de-canonized and not regarded as LDS scripture, but later lied and denied that he had ever said that the Brown, the LDS Church never appreciated a man like B.H. Roberts, torn between tradition, his loyalty for the Mormon Church, and the truth about the BOM.  The Mormon Church had also during the 1990s commissioned Dr. Stan Larson to investigate, as a professional linguist, the accusation that Smith, Jr. had plagiarized the Sermon on the Mount from the light of new scriptural translation discoveries from the Dead Sea Scrolls.  Larson completed the study and determined that Smith had plagiarized from the 18th Century King James Bible.  The Mormon hierarchy refused to publish Dr. Larson's completed study.  Dr. Larson was enraged by the LDS response to his conclusions and published the study independently.  I have a copy of the study sent to me from Dr. Larson.       

The heresies, such as apotheosis, man becoming a god, and the doctrines of works were opposed and expunged in good faith at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.  They were a fulfilment of the Apostle Paul's prophecies written to Timothy in the 4th chapter of each letter.  Paul called them doctrines of devils.  I guarantee any two fulltime Mormon missionaries that if they begin their discussion in the home of a Christian who knows nothing about Mormon theology with reading "Lesson 21" verbatim to the investigators, they in all probability will ask those missionaries to leave and never return.  There were quite a few departures from the true gospel of grace taught by the Apostles of Jesus before the death of the Apostle John, and the Apostles, especially Paul, warned the Christians about them.  

Now, again about the archaeology of the Hill Cumorah.  The following link might be helpful to you.

Archaeology of Cumorah | A Careful Examination (faenrandir.github.io)

There is no doubt from this link that your apostles, prophets, and seventies since Joseph Smith, Jr. all believed that the Hill Cumorah in upstate New York, near Palmyra, New York was the site of the last battle between the Nephites and the Lamanites in the BOM.  There is also a link to an article by my friendly adversary, Dr. John Clark at BYU.  Supposedly the Hill Cumorah has been excavated to an extent and no artifacts of war have been found.  I had not known this esoteric fact, but if it is true, the statements of all the Mormon general authorities in the link are baldfaced lies. How come rank-and-file members of the LDS Church still believe that the Hill Cumorah was where the last battle occurred?  So much for Mormon apologetics!

 

[webbles]

10 minutes ago, NRnowlinMA said:

The heresies, such as apotheosis, man becoming a god, and the doctrines of works were opposed and expunged in good faith at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

CFR that the Council of Nicaea has anything to do with works vs faith.  The agenda per wikipedia has nothing to do with works vs faith.  It also has nothing to do with apotheosis.  The agenda was over the Arian question, the date of Easter, the Meletian schism, and 20 new canons.

[Calm]

49 minutes ago, NRnowlinMA said:

FAIR is a BYU-Mormon corporation supported apologetic machine 

If only!  Volunteers working for free and paying for the opportunity to do so and donations from nice people is how we get by most of the time.

Are you confusing us with FARMS perhaps?  If so, I question the depth of your apologetic research. 
 

Quote

and utilizes dated materials to support its Mormon supporting positions

 

Check out our conferences and please point to the “dated” materials used in there.  There have been a number of occasions new research was first presented at a FAIR conference, I believe.  Books hot of the presses being delivered just in time to be sold in our bookstore at the conferences…

 

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

 Your originality in coming up with your own thoughts is really dismal.

I prefer to use documentation to avoid making mistakes of memory, such as confusing who said what.

3 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

The following link might be helpful to you.

Archaeology of Cumorah | A Careful Examination (faenrandir.github.io)

There is no doubt from this link that your apostles, prophets, and seventies since Joseph Smith, Jr. all believed that the Hill Cumorah in upstate New York, near Palmyra, New York was the site of the last battle between the Nephites and the Lamanites in the BOM.

I have never claimed this traditional view was and is not common among past and current leadership or membership.  Please address what I have said and requested and not a strawman.  You have still not answered my CFR.

I prefer to depend as much as I can on the text of the Book of Mormon and not on assumptions about it (at least others’ assumptions).

Quote

, the statements of all the Mormon general authorities in the link are baldfaced lies.

Mistaken, sincere belief is not a lie, even if false.  It is understandable that a mistake was made linking the record holding hill in the text of Book of Mormon with the record holding hill of Joseph’s history, but an assumption is not revelation and neither is tradition.  It is a nonissue as far as I am concerned.  Our leaders are human and make mistakes, sometimes big ones.  So what?  It is better that way, imo, because then we will learn to depend on God, not man.

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

13 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

I've heard the arguments, but don't accept them

That's perfectly fine, bud. But you're reading comprehension is so terrible, everything we say isn't merely being rejected as a difference of opinion, it's clear to me you don't even understand what has been said. Most of it has gone over your head, and your replies are loaded with logical Fallacies of Relevance, Appeals to Authority, Arguments from Repetition and some are just wrong. Let me show you.

13 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

The heresies, such as apotheosis, man becoming a god, and the doctrines of works were opposed and expunged in good faith at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

Not only did that not happen at all, I had just told you theosis is a Catholic doctrine, today. I just quoted the doctrine as far back as the First Century A.D. You are either a liar, or you don't actually know what you are talking about, now in two religions. 

Its fairly common knowledge that the Catholic apostate monk, Martin Luther, in making up his new religion, was the one who rejected all works despite contradicting the Bible. Like you, when something contradicts you, the easiest (if not the most honest) way to deal with it, is to deny its validity. So, Luther hated James’ Epistle and the Sermon on the Mount because they speak of works and so contradicted his new doctrine of faith alone.

"Sermon on the Mount”, Luther memorably said was “the devil’s masterpiece”

“St. James’ Epistle is really an epistle of straw, for it has nothing of the nature of the Gospel about it.” - Martin Luther

13 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

There is no doubt from this link that your apostles, prophets, and seventies since Joseph Smith, Jr. all believed that the Hill Cumorah in upstate New York, near Palmyra, New York was the site of the last battle between the Nephites and the Lamanites in the BOM... Supposedly the Hill Cumorah has been excavated to an extent and no artifacts of war have been found.

They are all entitled to their own opinions, but mere comments on geography are not binding on the Church. The Church authoritatively never identifies the drumlin in western New York as the same Hill Cumorah mentioned in the text of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith never used the name "Cumorah" in his own writings when referring to the gold plates' resting place. It is not even clear exactly when the New York hill became associated with the name. There are plenty of other comments by Joseph Smith and other leaders that said the Book of Mormon took place in South or Central America, so, are we just ignoring all those comments then? Are we to ignore what the Book of Mormon, what scripture, says about the matter over non-scriptural comments?

No actual archaeological digs have been performed at the site to actually attempt to find artifacts. There's been no professional archaeological supervision, corroboration or documentation. Amateurs digging up arrowheads is not an archaeological excavation. You don't know anything about it.

Edited December 29, 2023 by Pyreaux

[NRnowlinMA]

Mormon apologists, go back to your seminaries and institutes of religion and study Christian theological history.  Get your tithing money back for the diplomas you supposedly received.  Your words are moot!  From 40 AD, Pentecost, until Paul was killed, around 65 AD he preached the gospel of grace and nothing else.  Peter said in his epistle that those who do not follow the lead of Paul's message were confirming their damnation, even though some of what Paul had to say was difficult to understand.  The gospel of grace, not the doctrines of devils, was taught in Christian congregations until the Apostle John was removed, or ordered by a bishop, who had been ordained through Paul, to retire to Judea and keep his mouth shut, where John later died.  Around 90 AD was when the heresies were concocted by men of cunning craftiness about man becoming gods and rituals and works providing salvation or justification, instead of the grace of Christ wrought through his precious blood.  The Jesus and his Apostles never taught that man "may become like, or as great as the Lord God, nor would they.  There is a group of books based upon Martin Luther's commentaries in the Library of Congress archives that discuss the effects of the heresies and budding Roman Catholicism on the 2nd and 3rd Century Christians. Your dismal arguments defending Smith, Jr.'s resurrection of the heresies in his pagan discourses. 

Now, about that statement you made about the Mormon prophets, apostles, and seventies, general authorities authoritatively stating, for the record, their inspired words about Mormon geography.  It was Smith, Jr. who said, in 1831, in D&C 68:3-5, that Mormon scripture is, "the mind and word of the Lord when spoken by the general authorities, when "they" shall speak (or write) as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost."  How interesting that those statements about Cumorah were not opinions to the Mormon people who heard and read them.  They were the canon gospel truths, straight from the mouth of the Mormon lord.  I'm sure that when those statements were made, no one argued with it.  It was Orson Pratt who said, "when the prophets and apostles utter words about science and history, they are to be taken to heart as much as scripture as words about theology and doctrine."  That assertion of yours about opinions was given by Mormon apostles, prophets, and seventies about the Adam-God doctrine being an opinion of Brigham Young even though the doctrine was practiced in the Utah Valley for over 40 years and placed into, first. the Mormon St. George temple liturgy as the Lecture Before the Veil in 1877 by Brigham Young, and later into the Salt Lake temple endowment liturgy.  Your prophet, Joseph Fielding Smith was inducted into the Salt Lake temple through the Lecture at the Veil before it was quietly expunged, much as the Lectures on Faith were expunged and de-canonized around 1925. He blatantly lied in his "Answers to Gospel Questions" about the Adam-God doctrine NOT being taught in the Mormon temple.  JF Smith was getting his Adam-God endowment before going on his mission where he arrogantly claimed to "clean" though late.  This is a matter of historical fact!  I was told and threatened by your GA Marcus Nash in Mountlake Terrace, Washington in the year 1999 to keep my mouth shut about what he called the Adam-God theory and its practice in the Salt Lake Valley.  I was threatened with excommunication, much as Dr. Ken Clark, former bishop and CES campus director, was about teaching Mormon students the truth about what was theologically taught to Mormons in Salt Lake City from 1851 until around 1885, and what was sermonized by Brigham Young in Mormon general conferences.  

You see, Pyreaux, no matter how hard you try to hide the truth from human beings, it will eventually surface.  Your apostle Boyd Packer learned this the hard way when he tried to excommunicate all of the Mormon educators who believed that the publication of the truth of Mormon theological history was far more important than attempting to hide it.  Why don't you read the statements of Mormon archaeologist Dr. John Clark about the excavations on the Hill Cumorah as a result of the attempt to improve the area.  

Weebles, Pyreaux, I don't know what your professions are, but I hope you are better at those particular jobs than attempting to defend heretical polytheistic Mormon theology and its severely clouded history.  And by the way, you haven't mentioned anything about "Lesson 21-Man May Become Like God" and my assertion that "no reasonable lukewarm or ardent Christian knowing nothing about Mormonism would join the Mormon Church through baptism if the 1984 "Lesson 21" is read verbatim to them before beginning the formal discussions." Answer this question, "why aren't the facts contained in "Lesson 21" revealed to investigators before they are duped into baptism?" Please read it and get back to me. 

[webbles]

11 minutes ago, NRnowlinMA said:

Weebles, Pyreaux, I don't know what your professions are, but I hope you are better at those particular jobs than attempting to defend heretical polytheistic Mormon theology and its severely clouded history.  And by the way, you haven't mentioned anything about "Lesson 21-Man May Become Like God" and my assertion that "no reasonable lukewarm or ardent Christian knowing nothing about Mormonism would join the Mormon Church through baptism if the 1984 "Lesson 21" is read verbatim to them before beginning the formal discussions." Answer this question, "why aren't the facts contained in "Lesson 21" revealed to investigators before they are duped into baptism?" Please read it and get back to me. 

@NRnowlinMA, before we continue, I would recommend you start to quote parts that you are responding to.  If you don't do a quote and want to reach a person, start typing '@' and then their name and it will ping them (see what I did at the start of this paragraph).  It will help this conversation continue.

Second, you really need to respond to our questions.  I asked you to show how the Council of Nicaea had anything to do with faith vs works or apotheseis.  I'm really curious why you think that.  Is there something that wikipedia is missing?  If not, then it means you just made it up and that could be a sign that much of your other assertions are also made up.

Third, I don't see what you want to discuss about Lesson 21.  Saying "no reasonable lukewarm or adent Christian ..." is a nice testimony of yours but since there are a lot of people who have joined the church and who knew about our beliefs, I don't see it as a fact.  I actually knew a bunch of people who, before they were baptized, had their preachers, pastors, friends, etc sit them down and show them pretty much every "anti-Mormon" movie, book, article, etc that they could.  Guess what?  Those people still were baptized.

[Amulek]

19 minutes ago, NRnowlinMA said:

Please read it and get back to me. 

Please answer the CFR's (call for references) which have been posed to you.

You stated that "it was Smith, Jr. who stated in his history that Moroni, the angel, buried the alleged golden plates on a hill he called Cumorah near Palmyra, New York, near where the final battle BOM occurred."

@Calm has asked, on multiple occasions now, for you to provide evidence of this claim.

If the prophet Joseph really did state this in his history as you purport, it should be trivially easy to provide us with a reference.

So, let's have it then. Please either put up or shut up.

 

[Calm]

I have major family stuff going on for awhile, so I probably won’t invest any more effort into this thread at least for a few days and until my CFRs are answered. I see Amulek (thank you!) is keeping an eye on things, so not worried they will be forgotten in the meantime…anyone else can feel free to remind NR CFRs (doesn’t weebles have one or two as well?) are waiting for answers too. Thanks ahead of time. 

[Pyreaux]

 

3 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

Mormon apologists, go back to your seminaries and institutes of religion and study Christian theological history.  Get your tithing money back for the diplomas you supposedly received.  Your words are moot!  From 40 AD, Pentecost, until Paul was killed, around 65 AD he preached the gospel of grace and nothing else.  Peter said in his epistle that those who do not follow the lead of Paul's message were confirming their damnation, even though some of what Paul had to say was difficult to understand.  The gospel of grace, not the doctrines of devils, was taught in Christian congregations until the Apostle John was removed.

This is demonstratably false. What does Paul mean in 1 Cor 9:24-27 and Phil 3:11-14 other than to preach there is something else to obtain, and believers must work to obtain it?

“Run in such a way that you may obtain it.” 1 Cor 9:24
“I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.” 1 Cor 9:27
“I press toward the goal of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.” Phil 3:14

Do you concur with Martin Luther? What do you think of the Epistle of James?

"Faith without works Is dead... You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." James 2:14-26

3 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

The Jesus and his Apostles never taught that man "may become like, or as great as the Lord God, nor would they.  There is a group of books based upon Martin Luther's commentaries in the Library of Congress archives that discuss the effects of the heresies and budding Roman Catholicism on the 2nd and 3rd Century Christians. Your dismal arguments defending Smith, Jr.'s resurrection of the heresies in his pagan discourses. 

So, you [edit: errored]. There was no, and is no, heresy of theosis decreed by the Catholics during the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. I'm even starting to doubt the existence of your unnamed book you are attempting to claim is the source of your [edit: error]. You sure it was a book? You sure it wasn't nothing?

John taught “we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2). Tell me how this is not theosis?

3 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

Now, about that statement you made about the Mormon prophets, apostles, and seventies, general authorities authoritatively stating, for the record, their inspired words about Mormon geography.  It was Smith, Jr. who said, in 1831, in D&C 68:3-5, that Mormon scripture is, "the mind and word of the Lord when spoken by the general authorities, when "they" shall speak (or write) as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost."  How interesting that those statements about Cumorah were not opinions to the Mormon people who heard and read them.  They were the canon gospel truths, straight from the mouth of the Mormon lord.

You are [edit: wrong]. The Prophet can add to the scriptures, but such new additions are presented by the First Presidency to the body of the Church and are accepted by common consent as binding doctrine of the Church (See D&C 26:2; 107:27-31).

“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside.” The standard works, are the “measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3 vols. (1955), 3:203)

Until such doctrines are sustained by vote in conference, they are “neither binding nor the official doctrine of the Church.” (Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christian? (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1992), 15.)

You can't throw an Apostle's every thought and utterance at us and claim we must believe it is the same as holy writ. That it not how it works.

3 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

You see, Pyreaux, no matter how hard you try to hide the truth from human beings, it will eventually surface.  Your apostle Boyd Packer learned this the hard way when he tried to excommunicate all of the Mormon educators who believed that the publication of the truth of Mormon theological history was far more important than attempting to hide it.  Why don't you read the statements of Mormon archaeologist Dr. John Clark about the excavations on the Hill Cumorah as a result of the attempt to improve the area.  

I have. I and Dr. John Clark, have said the New York hill is not Hill Cumorah. The Book of Mormon does not say the Hill Cumorah is where Moroni buried the plates. 

3 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

Weebles, Pyreaux, I don't know what your professions are, but I hope you are better at those particular jobs than attempting to defend heretical polytheistic Mormon theology and its severely clouded history.  And by the way, you haven't mentioned anything about "Lesson 21-Man May Become Like God" and my assertion that "no reasonable lukewarm or ardent Christian knowing nothing about Mormonism would join the Mormon Church through baptism if the 1984 "Lesson 21" is read verbatim to them before beginning the formal discussions." Answer this question, "why aren't the facts contained in "Lesson 21" revealed to investigators before they are duped into baptism?" Please read it and get back to me. 

Tell us what you don't like about Lesson 21. Your replies are usually just name-dropping word salads, and delusions that all the Christian history you've botched here agrees with you. All I know about your opinion about it so far is that you were easily "duped" by it. I don't know how to disagree with that. What religion are you now? If you won't say, how do you expect anyone to join? Too busy protecting your own beliefs from criticism to share?

Edited December 29, 2023 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

Just now, Pyreaux said:

You are a liar.

Maybe avoid the personal accusations as they distract from the substance of our comments, please (plus they get people banned and threads locked)?  Let behaviour speak for itself.  I know there will be those that ignore the rules, but I don’t think the mods understand such to open the door for others to make similar accusations, even in cases where it is deserved.

Sorry for the board nannying, it is the holidays and I want to save moderators having to play referee…nor do I want to see good posters such as yourself banned from a thread.   

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Until such doctrines are sustained by vote in conference, they are “neither binding nor the official doctrine of the Church.” (Stephen E. Robinson, Are Mormons Christian? (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1992), 15.)

Also helpful…

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/approaching-mormon-doctrine

[Pyreaux]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Maybe avoid the personal accusations as they distract from the substance of our comments, please (plus they get people banned and threads locked)?  Let behaviour speak for itself.  I know there will be those that ignore the rules, but I don’t think the mods understand such to open the door for others to make similar accusations, even in cases where it is deserved.

Sorry for the board nannying, it is the holidays and I want to save moderators having to play referee…nor do I want to see good posters such as yourself banned from a thread.   

Fine, he "errors".

[NRnowlinMA]

God bless you, Pyreaux, pyrex, or whatever you call yourself.  If you will believe Martin Luther, read what he said about the doctrines of works considered and allowed by the Council of Nicaea, that led to Roman Catholic rituals, and the "illusion of man thinking that he can be God, or as great as God."  There were several heresies discussed at Nicaea, Arianism, doctrines about the resurrection of Jesus, and man becoming a god, or as great as a god.  Smith, Jr. resurrected the heresies that had never been an official part of the doctrine and gospel of Jesus. 

In 1831, the 1833 Book of Commandments had not been written, and there was no such thing as canonization of scripture by common consent.  Actual common consent did not begin until 1917.  Joseph Smith approved the Lectures on Faith as doctrine in 1835 in Kirtland, Ohio, and so they were the doctrine of the LDS Church for nearly 100 years.  Yet, what the general authorities stated under the influence of the Holy Ghost was the mind and will of the Mormon lord.  Every Mormon general authority, long before 1917 and 1955, believed and testified in the name of their god that the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, New York was the Book of Mormon Hill Cumorah. That's what Michael Coe found so humorous about Mormon doctrine and history.  "They can change it as long as it is convenient for political purposes.  They can pretend that they are swallowing camels, while choking on gnats." 

Recall that before Dr. Simon Southerton published his proofs about Lamanite DNA not being Hebrew or Jewish, Spence Kimball said to hundreds of Peruvians under what he called the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, "The blood of Father Lehi, Nephi, and Israel flows in your veins."  Yet, that was a blatant lie told by Kimball.  Send an email to Dr. John Clark at BYU and ask him if a goodly portion of the Hill Cumorah in New York has been excavated for commercial improvement without any discoveries of archaeological artifacts? He won't lie to you. If I follow your line of reasoning, the statements of Mormon apostles and prophets in general conferences can't be taken as "scripture" unless it is put to a vote. Ezra T. Bensen didn't see it that way and said so in a speech to BYU. 

In late 1984, just before his death, Mormon Apostle B.R. McConkie came to preside over a stake conference in the Palomar Stake of Southern California and attended an elders' quorum meeting in the Oceanside 1st Ward.  He "testified" that "Lesson 21-Man May Become Like God" was the most important lesson in the 1984 39-lesson LDS Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, "Search These Commandments."  Why?  He said that "Lesson 21" was a restatement of Smith, Jr.'s King Follett Discourse and Lorenzo Snow's refinement of it in his couplet, "as man is, God once was, and as God is, man my become."  He warned the elders not to expose the contents of "Lesson 21" to anyone who was not LDS.  I was present in that quorum of elders that particular Sunday. 

The devilish doctrine of works, and not grace, is promulgated in "Lesson 21," as is the "destiny of all worthy Mormon elders to be as great as the Mormon father-god. In that pernicious lesson, the doctrine of polytheism is advanced as a continuation of father-godhood, from father to son, through the exaltation of a worthy mortal elder, and his wife, attaining father-godhood and celestial mother goddess status.  The role of the heavenly mother-goddess is directly implied in "Lesson 21" and the 1984 Relief Society lesson manual explained the role of being the exalted wife of Mormon father-(g)od to all the potential heavenly-mother goddesses.  That every father-(g)od is born mortally on an earth-like planet somewhere in the cosmos, lives and abides by the works required of him, dies, is resurrected and is deemed worthy by a superior council of father-gods to be exalted and made into a creator.  It is implied in "Lesson 21" that the mortal sons of father-gods must do everything that the father-gods have done to take their place in the hierarchy of father-gods.  The word grace is nowhere mentioned in "Lesson 21."  You may not have explored Joe Smith, Jr's teachings in depth, but he, in 1944, stated in connection with the King Follett funeral Discourse, that it is the duty of every exalted formerly mortal god to sire, with his goddess wife, a firstborn spirit son who will serve as the savior of that god's world, to be his world's redeemer.  Wild, huh?  This anthropomorphic system of gods is much more convoluted and pagan than Greek mythology. 

For the foregoing reasons, "Lesson 21," if read by any reasonable Christian, is the undoing of a formal association of that Christian with Mormonism.  That is why I've sent hundreds of PDF copies of "Lesson 21" to evangelical anti-Mormon ministries.  A PDF copy of "Lesson 21" was placed on the Mormonthink.org website in 2011, but many Christians still don't know that it is available on the Internet.  You see, Pyreaux, "Lesson 21" tells the investigating Christians the salient facts about Mormon theology and doctrine that the Mormon missionaries don't reveal in their scripted discussions.  I believe that most reasonable Christians don't believe that is the purpose of Christianity and the destiny of man to be as great as God, for no mortal can ever become as great as the Lord Jesus Christ. Most sincere Christians just want to worship and praise Jesus and to try to be like him, not his Father, working diligently after receiving salvation from sin by grace through faith in Jesus precious redeeming blood. 

The old Mormon film, "Man's search for Happiness" makes it abundantly clear that Mormon theology maintains that resurrection is the only free gift offered to mankind by Jesus. The film states that in order to attain exaltation, the highest degree of eternal opportunity, people must constantly work for it, constantly improving over the time of mortality, never knowing if you are good enough.  This is not what Paul states in Ephesians 2:1-9 (KJV).  I sincerely hope that "Lesson 21" will serve as the means for the ultimate failure of the fulltime Mormon missionary scheme.   

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, NRnowlinMA said:

I sincerely hope that "Lesson 21" will serve as the means for the ultimate failure of the fulltime Mormon missionary scheme.   

Hope away.  It won't stop anything.   

[Amulek]

24 minutes ago, NRnowlinMA said:

[...] Spence Kimball [...]

[...] Joe Smith [...]

Please read the board guidelines. You are engaging in uncivil behavior here:

• Do not belittle religious leaders or use demeaning nicknames (ex. Calling Joseph Smith "Joe")

I don't want to see you banned before you have an opportunity to provide us with answers to the questions which have been asked of you.

Please provide a reference for your claim that "it was Smith, Jr. who stated in his history that Moroni, the angel, buried the alleged golden plates on a hill he called Cumorah near Palmyra, New York, near where the final battle BOM occurred."

You seem to have a lot to say about Mormonism, having allegedly been a devout member for over 30 years, so surely you ought to be able to show me where to find this. Thanks!

 

Edited December 29, 2023 by Amulek

[Pyreaux]

3 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

God bless you, Pyreaux, pyrex, or whatever you call yourself.  If you will believe Martin Luther, read what he said about the doctrines of works considered and allowed by the Council of Nicaea, that led to Roman Catholic rituals, and the "illusion of man thinking that he can be God, or as great as God."  There were several heresies discussed at Nicaea, Arianism, doctrines about the resurrection of Jesus, and man becoming a god, or as great as a god.  Smith, Jr. resurrected the heresies that had never been an official part of the doctrine and gospel of Jesus. 

It's a Louisiana-French thing (eaux = o), Pyro. Made more sense when I was making a cool unique Gametag.

Yes, I would love to read what this Martin Luther book said. Tell me what book it is, please. CFR

3 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

Every Mormon general authority, long before 1917 and 1955, believed and testified in the name of their god that the Hill Cumorah near Palmyra, New York was the Book of Mormon Hill Cumorah.

Very interesting. I would really like to see just one quote please. Your link does not seem to quote anything like, "I testify in the name of God" CFR

3 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

If I follow your line of reasoning, the statements of Mormon apostles and prophets in general conferences can't be taken as "scripture" unless it is put to a vote. Ezra T. Bensen didn't see it that way and said so in a speech to BYU. 

Basically, if it's intended to be a doctrine, at some time and occasion, you make it official. Otherwise, it's not official. Right?

3 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

In late 1984, just before his death, Mormon Apostle B.R. McConkie came to preside over a stake conference in the Palomar Stake of Southern California and attended an elders' quorum meeting in the Oceanside 1st Ward.  He "testified" that "Lesson 21-Man May Become Like God" was the most important lesson in the 1984 39-lesson LDS Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, "Search These Commandments."  Why?  He said that "Lesson 21" was a restatement of Smith, Jr.'s King Follett Discourse and Lorenzo Snow's refinement of it in his couplet, "as man is, God once was, and as God is, man my become."  He warned the elders not to expose the contents of "Lesson 21" to anyone who was not LDS.  I was present in that quorum of elders that particular Sunday. 

So, first issue, you are against reserving deep doctrine before a certain foundation is laid first? I don't agree. Do you subject children to the Passion of the Christ without telling them who he is and why it happened? 

Against Order is Against Reason - "The teaching of all doctrine has a certain order, and there are some things which must be delivered first, others in the second place, and others in the third, and so all in their order; and if these things be delivered in their order, they become plain; but if they be brought forward out of order, they will seem to be spoken against reason. And therefore order is to be observed above all things, if we seek for the purpose of finding what we seek. For he who enters rightly upon the road, will observe the second place in due order, and from the second will more easily find the third; and the further he proceeds, so much the more will the way of knowledge become open to him, even until he arrive at the city of truth, whither he is bound, and which he desires to reach. But he who is unskilful, and knows not the way of inquiry, as a traveler in a foreign country, ignorant and wandering, if he will not employ a native of the country as a guide — undoubtedly when he has strayed from the way of truth, shall remain outside the gates of life, and so, involved in the darkness of black night, shall walk through the paths of perdition. Inasmuch therefore, as, if those things which are to be sought, be sought in an orderly manner, they can most easily be found, but the unskillful man is ignorant of the order of inquiry, it is right that the ignorant man should yield to the knowing one, and first learn the order of inquiry, that so at length he may find the method of asking and answering." (Clementine Recognitions 3:34)

3 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

The devilish doctrine of works, and not grace, is promulgated in "Lesson 21," as is the "destiny of all worthy Mormon elders to be as great as the Mormon father-god. In that pernicious lesson, the doctrine of polytheism is advanced as a continuation of father-godhood, from father to son, through the exaltation of a worthy mortal elder, and his wife, attaining father-godhood and celestial mother goddess status.  The role of the heavenly mother-goddess is directly implied in "Lesson 21" and the 1984 Relief Society lesson manual explained the role of being the exalted wife of Mormon father-(g)od to all the potential heavenly-mother goddesses.  That every father-(g)od is born mortally on an earth-like planet somewhere in the cosmos, lives and abides by the works required of him, dies, is resurrected and is deemed worthy by a superior council of father-gods to be exalted and made into a creator.  It is implied in "Lesson 21" that the mortal sons of father-gods must do everything that the father-gods have done to take their place in the hierarchy of father-gods.  The word grace is nowhere mentioned in "Lesson 21."  You may not have explored Joe Smith, Jr's teachings in depth, but he, in 1944, stated in connection with the King Follett funeral Discourse, that it is the duty of every exalted formerly mortal god to sire, with his goddess wife, a firstborn spirit son who will serve as the savior of that god's world, to be his world's redeemer.  Wild, huh?  This anthropomorphic system of gods is much more convoluted and pagan than Greek mythology. 

Grace will save you, but there is more to be had than just salvation. There are rewards and crowns not given freely, rather are given by works.

I don't think Mormonism is more convoluted and pagan Greek than the Trinity. The Jews say Trinitarianism is polytheism. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints considers itself monotheistic, because God the Father is The God of the Universe and is worshipped by Jesus Christ as well. 

What do you think of humans becoming joint-heirs with Jesus Christ, and thus gods? In LDS theology, no one is to be worshipped as a god in the sense of polytheism. 

3 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

You see, Pyreaux, "Lesson 21" tells the investigating Christians the salient facts about Mormon theology and doctrine that the Mormon missionaries don't reveal in their scripted discussions.  I believe that most reasonable Christians don't believe that is the purpose of Christianity and the destiny of man to be as great as God, for no mortal can ever become as great as the Lord Jesus Christ. Most sincere Christians just want to worship and praise Jesus and to try to be like him, not his Father, working diligently after receiving salvation from sin by grace through faith in Jesus precious redeeming blood. 

The old Mormon film, "Man's search for Happiness" makes it abundantly clear that Mormon theology maintains that resurrection is the only free gift offered to mankind by Jesus. The film states that in order to attain exaltation, the highest degree of eternal opportunity, people must constantly work for it, constantly improving over the time of mortality, never knowing if you are good enough.  This is not what Paul states in Ephesians 2:1-9 (KJV).  I sincerely hope that "Lesson 21" will serve as the means for the ultimate failure of the fulltime Mormon missionary scheme.   

Paul writes to us that human persons are called to grow into the full measure of the stature of Christ (Eph. 4:3). An ancient patristic statement (first coined by St. Athanasius of Alexandria) words it this way: “God became a human person by nature so that human persons could become divine by grace.” This is what the Catholic Church calls theosis / divinization / deification: i.e., the partaking of and sharing in divine nature of the Lord as St. Peter once wrote (2 Pet. 1:4) by invitation, by adoption, by gift. Human persons are called to be transformed and transfigured (meta-morphed) from a fallen nature and "changed into the same image from glory to glory" into the same glory as the Lord (2 Corinthians 3:18).

Edited December 30, 2023 by Pyreaux

[InCognitus]

25 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Against Order is Against Reason - The teaching of all doctrine has a certain order, and there are some things which must be delivered first, others in the second place, and others in the third, and so all in their order; and if these things be delivered in their order, they become plain; but if they be brought forward out of order, they will seem to be spoken against reason. And therefore order is to be observed above all things, if we seek for the purpose of finding what we seek. For he who enters rightly upon the road, will observe the second place in due order, and from the second will more easily find the third; and the further he proceeds, so much the more will the way of knowledge become open to him, even until he arrive at the city of truth, whither he is bound, and which he desires to reach. But he who is unskilful, and knows not the way of inquiry, as a traveller in a foreign country, ignorant and wandering, if he will not employ a native of the country as a guide — undoubtedly when he has strayed from the way of truth, shall remain outside the gates of life, and so, involved in the darkness of black night, shall walk through the paths of perdition. Inasmuch therefore, as, if those things which are to be sought, be sought in an orderly manner, they can most easily be found, but the unskilful man is ignorant of the order of inquiry, it is right that the ignorant man should yield to the knowing one, and first learn the order of inquiry, that so at length he may find the method of asking and answering." (Clementine Recognitions 3:34)

Just providing a linked reference to the above just in case @NRnowlinMA isn't aware that this is actually an early Christian teaching:  Clementine Recognitions 3:34, also on the New Advent site:  Recognitions, Book III, Chapter 34.

And lets not forget:  

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.   I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able."  (1 Corinthians 3:1–2)

"Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.  Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.  For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.  But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."  (Hebrews 5:10–14)

Edited December 29, 2023 by InCognitus

[NRnowlinMA]

Pyreaux, you will have to make a trip to the Library of Congress to read the commentaries of Martin Luther.  They supposedly were going to be placed on the LOC Internet database, but never were.  I live 25 miles from DC and use the Library of Congress as often as I need.  Luther was the reformer of Catholicism who stated that "grace, not works, was the gospel of Jesus and his Apostles from the day of Pentecost to the death of the last Apostle.  Works were emphasized by heretical Christians such as Ignatius, which contradicted the gospel taught by Paul, Peter, James, and John.  As Luther, interpreted, taught, "too much human philosophy was inserted into the basic teachings of grace, which promoted human endeavor or faith and grace."

Now, again, to the matter of Cumorah.  You want references. so I will give you a Mormon reference from the "Interpreter:  A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship:"

The Geology of Moroni’s Stone Box:
Examining the Setting and
Resources of Palmyra

Benjamin R. Jordan and Warren P. Aston

Interpreter: A Journal of Latter-day Saint Faith and Scholarship 30 (2018): 233-252

• Article Formats:
• Abstract: The story of Joseph Smith retrieving gold plates from a stone box on a hillside in upstate New York and translating them into the foundational text of the Restoration is well known among Latter-day Saints. While countless retellings have examined these events in considerable detail, very few have explored the geological aspects involved in this story. In particular, none have discussed in detail the geological materials that would have been required by the Nephite prophet Moroni ca. ad 421 to construct a sealed container able to protect the gold plates from the elements and from premature discovery for some fourteen centuries. This paper reports the outcomes from a field investigation into what resources would have been available to Moroni in the Palmyra area. It was conducted by the authors in New York state in October 2017.
• The hill near Palmyra,¹ New York state, in which Moroni buried the plates and from which Joseph Smith retrieved them, has long been popularly known among Latter-day Saints as “Cumorah.” This unofficial practice derived from the assumption by many early Book of Mormon believers that this hill marks the location of the final battles between the Lamanite and Nephite armies. The practice remains common today among the general membership. As the Book of Mormon describes the land of Cumorah, its hill, and those wars in some detail, it is evident to [Page 234]the careful reader that the real-world setting was not — indeed could not — have been situated in New York state.² Accordingly, for clarity throughout this paper, the New York hill where the plates were buried by Moroni is referred to as the “Palmyra hill.”

As read, the BOM record tells that Mormon buries the plates, which Moroni digs up and completes.  Then Moroni later buries the plates in the Hill Cumorah, in upstate New York, which is the same Hill Rama known to the alleged Jaredites. In Volumer 1, History of the Church, pp 1-14

[Pyreaux]

15 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

Pyreaux, you will have to make a trip to the Library of Congress to read the commentaries of Martin Luther.  They supposedly were going to be placed on the LOC Internet database, but never were.  I live 25 miles from DC and use the Library of Congress as often as I need.  Luther was the reformer of Catholicism who stated that "grace, not works, was the gospel of Jesus and his Apostles from the day of Pentecost to the death of the last Apostle.  Works were emphasized by heretical Christians such as Ignatius, which contradicted the gospel taught by Paul, Peter, James, and John.  As Luther, interpreted, taught, "too much human philosophy was inserted into the basic teachings of grace, which promoted human endeavor or faith and grace."

Fine, but you can't even give me the title, yet you can freely quote from it? If that's true, it's kind of a rudely elitist thing to be doing.

 

15 hours ago, NRnowlinMA said:

The hill near Palmyra,¹ New York state, in which Moroni buried the plates and from which Joseph Smith retrieved them, has long been popularly known among Latter-day Saints as “Cumorah.” This unofficial practice derived from the assumption by many early Book of Mormon believers that this hill marks the location of the final battles between the Lamanite and Nephite armies. The practice remains common today among the general membership. As the Book of Mormon describes the land of Cumorah, its hill, and those wars in some detail, it is evident to [Page 234]the careful reader that the real-world setting was not — indeed could not — have been situated in New York state.² Accordingly, for clarity throughout this paper, the New York hill where the plates were buried by Moroni is referred to as the “Palmyra hill.”

As read, the BOM record tells that Mormon buries the plates, which Moroni digs up and completes.  Then Moroni later buries the plates in the Hill Cumorah, in upstate New York, which is the same Hill Rama known to the alleged Jaredites. In Volumer 1, History of the Church, pp 1-14

.... WHAT?!! What was that last part? That is not what he said.

BOM record tells that Moroni digs up the plates from Cumorah, travels with them for decades until he buries the plates, in the Palmyra hill in upstate New York. 

Edited December 30, 2023 by Pyreaux

[NRnowlinMA]

That Moroni allegedly buries the plates, is the basis for him returning to show Joe Smith, Jr. where is to find the buried plates.  Noone saw the alleged plates that Smith, Jr. retrieved.  Hence, the so-called plates could have been made from anything and made to deceive the onlooker.   

I see that inCognitus has entered into the fray.  Welcome!  Had I known the facts contained in "Lesson 21" at the time, in 1970, when Craig Burgess and Barry Erickson, both from Utah, misrepresented Mormon theology and Mormon history to me, I would NEVER have consented to join Mormonism.  As is the law, when a contractor, or offeror, withholds vital information, such as about a heavenly mother-goddess in Mormon heaven and about the goal of becoming gods and goddesses, from the contractee, or offeree, in a business contract involving consideration, such as the paying of tithing as a condition of baptism, the contract is regarded as utterly void.  I was told by the missionaries that the payment of tithing was a required condition for baptism. I recall asking them if they had told everything I should, and needed, know about Mormon theology in order to make my decision.  They looked me straight in the eye and said that they had told me everything. This, of course, was a deliberate lie., which I came to discover five years later.  It was fraudulent for those missionaries not to tell me the true facts about Mormon theology, and this is said by millions of Mormon converts who have later resigned from the LDS Church.

For your benefit, Pyreaux, those heretics like Athanasius, opposed the teachings of Paul and sought to insert Greek philosophy into the basic teachings about grace and Christian growth. Though not mentioned in the New Testament, Athanasius was very similar to the man written about by John, in 3 John, verse 9, Diotrephes, who rose in popularity but strove to egregiously detract from the teachings of the Apostles.  After the Apostle John was forced by a bishop, called by Titus, to leave the ministry and go back to Judea, the prime purpose for the Apostles was lost, "And he gave some Apostles, some, prophets, some evangelists, pastors, and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry. . ." Ephesians 4:11-16.  The Apostle John did not leave the apostolic ministry voluntarily.    

[NRnowlinMA]

Okay, Pyreaux, here is a rendition and compilation of Luther's collected works:

Selected Works of Martin Luther (projectwittenberg.org)

In his work, "Disputation on the Divinity and Humanity of Christ" he speaks of the opposition of works to the grace of Christ.  In his "Treatise on Good Works," Luther emphasizes grace.  

It will take you quite a while to get through the sum of Luther's criticisms of ritualism and the original heresies. I had not realized that the Wittenberg project had been placed online.  Still, not all of the collected works of Luther in the Library of Congress are available on the Internet.  

[Pyreaux]

6 minutes ago, NRnowlinMA said:

That Moroni allegedly buries the plates, is the basis for him returning to show Joe Smith, Jr. where is to find the buried plates.  Noone saw the alleged plates that Smith, Jr. retrieved.  Hence, the so-called plates could have been made from anything and made to deceive the onlooker. 

What?!! What are you blathering about? Moroni travels for years away from Cumorah. He therefore buried them away from Cumorah. About 20 people said they saw and touched the plates, even a non-member saw them. Whatever your conspiracy theory is about that, quit changing the subject with these weird Red Herrings, please.

 

10 minutes ago, NRnowlinMA said:

For your benefit, Pyreaux, those heretics like Athanasius, opposed the teachings of Paul and sought to insert Greek philosophy into the basic teachings about grace and Christian growth. Though not mentioned in the New Testament, Athanasius was very similar to the man written about by John, in 3 John, verse 9, Diotrephes, who rose in popularity but strove to egregiously detract from the teachings of the Apostles.  After the Apostle John was forced by a bishop, called by Titus, to leave the ministry and go back to Judea, the prime purpose for the Apostles was lost, "And he gave some Apostles, some, prophets, some evangelists, pastors, and teachers, for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry. . ." Ephesians 4:11-16.  The Apostle John did not leave the apostolic ministry voluntarily.    

So, like an Apostasy? How do you know you aren't in apostacy, right now? Where are your Apostles at?

[Stormin' Mormon]

I'm confused. What is included in "Lesson 21" that isn't freely available to the world on the LDS Gospel Library app? King Follet discourse? There in its entirety. Lorenzo's Snow's couplet? A whole chapter in Teachings of Lorenzo Snow. An exploration of the doctrinal development of both discourse and couplet? A couple of entries in the Gospel Topics essay.

This thing was not done in a corner. Insinuations that "Lesson 21" is gonna somehow topple the Mormon house of cards rings a little hollow when the church itself is publishing this information on its own free app.

You seem to have a lot you want to discuss, @NRnowlinMA. I'd recommend starting a few different topical threads focused on each topic you want to explore. If you're actually interested in discussion and not just scoring points, separate, focused discussions are more likely to produce thoughtful, engaging responses than the current shotgun approach.

Edited December 30, 2023 by Stormin' Mormon