Daybell-Vallow trial

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I wonder if Lori may be sociopathic.  See here:

I do not think she has been diagnosed with this, though, so it may not play a role in the legal proceedings.

I am not sure whether Antisocial Personality Disorder is, in and of itself, sufficient to negate mens rea.  I suspect not.

I think guilty conduct is the only viable explanation for all the bodies that stacked up around her.

Thanks,

-Smac

I believe you're right, and I wonder about her upbringing because I thought the sister had some major issues, but we can't blame it all on that of course. Sociopath's are crazy scary for sure.

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

There are at least two kinds of "crazy" (Remember: I live in Crazytown!  I love the place!  (I think I saw Lori a time or two at those apartments on the next block over from mine )  (1) A person may be "crazy," may know (or may not know) he or she is "crazy," and may regret all of the ways in which one's "craziness" affects others; or (2) a person may be "crazy," may realize he or she is crazy, and may not give a !$%&@#!! how one's craziness affects others (or at least, may not do so enough to want to change).  From (admittedly little) I've seen and heard of Lori, I think she's the latter.

The one thing that nails that she most likely is a sociopath was how she reacted to Charles's death by her brother in front of their house and how she's laughing that they just moved to the neighborhood and what the neighbor's must think. All the while she lost probably the one person who really did care and love her. 

[Calm]

15 hours ago, Tacenda said:

it were me that did this hellacious evil, I'd kill myself, maybe torture myself, because of the terrible guilt. I wouldn't be sitting there pissed.

And that is why someone like you would never do something like this or at least to give her some benefit of the doubt, if someone like you for some reason thought her kids were better off dead, once you heard of the horrendous circumstances surrounding the disposal like garbage of the bodies of your precious children, you would be in full confession mode most likely. But my guess is LVD is sociopathic or more likely psychopathic*** and doesn’t respond with the same kind of feelings we would.  It is all about her and always has been. 

***

Quote

Here, in a nutshell, are seven characteristics that should alert you that a psychopathic personality might be in your sights.

Superficial Charm. ... 

Puffed-Up Self-Esteem. ... 

Deceitfulness. ... 

Shallow Emotions. ... 

Boredom and a Need for Stimulation. ... 

A History of Shady Conduct. ... 

A Riddle of Contradictions.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/decoding-madness/202110/7-elements-the-psychopathic-personality

Also https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/features/sociopath-psychopath-difference

Edited April 12, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

Again, from WS…want to give them all the credit for gathering the material

Lum:

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For anyone wondering, we have not seen any direct family members of Lori here this week

 

[Calm]

This was posted on WS as background..

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Just placing my transcript of the 404b hearing allowing Brandon Boudreaux to testify about the shooting


State: the court wants a out in public response in front of the witness?

Judge: yes

State: Your honor, the State believes that this is part of a common scheme and plan. The defendant with her co-conspirators conspired to cause the death of multiple individuals in her world. She is charged specifically with the death of Tylee, JJ and Tammy, she is charged with conspiracy on those issues, and the State’s belief, in the electronic evidence, the telephone evidence, the witness testimony through those people who participated in these conversations clearly establish a conspiracy to remove individuals who were obstacles to her future life together with Chad Daybell and to remove obstacles to their plan for this life together. The shooting at and killing of spouses of individuals who were part of this group was part of this common scheme or plan. The financial benefit to Ms Vallow-Daybell’s niece, at the death of her soon to be ex-husband would have helped finance some of the defendant’s travels, lives and movement in the future. There will be multiple witnesses who discuss that the defendant talked to people that Melani Boudreaux and her money would take care of them, that Melani Boudreaux and her money would help aid the group’s plans for the future, and fundamentally it is part of a common scheme or plan. It is far more probative than prejudicial; it is part and parcel. The other piece, just from logic, in terms of law enforcement involvement, the shooting at Mr Boudreaux is what actively got law enforcement paying attention, what actively got law enforcement looking for JJ and Tylee and it’s core to the presentation of many of the law enforcement’s assessments of evidence.
 

I hadn’t heard about the Melani’s money for LVD part though everyone was assuming that was part of it given the influence of LVD over her niece.

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/id-doomsday-cult-victims-joshua-vallow-tylee-ryan-tammy-daybell-charles-vallow-arrests-69.674046/page-4#post-18250233

[Calm]

There is a prison official testifying about video calls…

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It’s a video visit between Lori and her sister Summer Shiflet on 6/24/20.

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34B is another thumb drive of a video visit between Lori Vallow and her son Colby Ryan on 8/3/20.

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We have heard the call between Chad and Lori on 6/9/20 when her kids were found dead on the Daybell property, but we have never seen these two video visits made by Colby Ryan and Summer Shiflet.

For those who haven’t listened to the call, you might want to.

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

New witness, Sheriff Powell..just new stuff highlights again…I have been leaving out most discussion showing chain of custody, etc btw

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A new exhibit published. We are looking at a photo of Chad and Lori at Cafe Rio from 11/1/19….

Powell was doing surveillance and says they were eating and talking…

Another photo is published and we see Chad and Lori walking into Hobby Lobby. Powell says they were holding hands.

They got interested in Tammy Daybell’s death for obvious reasons…

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Powell obtained a search warrant for Tammy’s medical records. He found that she didn’t go to the doctor much but she did get seen for depression.

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Powell: Tammy was prescribed two things. Fluoxetine and Tramadol

The first (also known as Prozac) is prescribed usually for depression and the second pain (synthetic opioid).

Cross…

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Thomas asks about surveillance of Lori and Chad: How many times did you watch them? Powell: Just that one day.

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Thomas on Tammy’s death: Are you aware of where Lori Vallow was when Tammy died on 10/19/19? Powell: No. Thomas: Would it surprise you that she was in Hawaii? Powell: No.

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

From Nate Eaton…

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John Prior, Chad Daybell's attorney, just walked in the courtroom. He is casually dressed in a t-shirt and is watching from the audience gallery. I'm told Chad is not watching the trial from the Fremont County Jail.

Judge Boyce is on the bench. Due to some unforeseen circumstances, the state has requested some modifications to the trial schedule. The state would like to end early today and not hold trial on Monday.

I'm told Lindsey Blake had a death in the family and this is likely why there is a modification to schedule.
 

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Boards were found on top of JJ's body. Hermosillo said similar-style boards were found in Chad Daybell's garage area but they were never able to find the identical, matching boards.
 

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Willmore has worked for the Madison County Sheriff's Office for 20 years. He is the captain over the Madison County Jail and oversees the Telmate phone system used for inmates to communicate with family and friends.

Willmore says each inmate has a unique PIN number assigned to them when they use the Telmate system. They can communicate with others using video, text or audio. Anything on the Telmate system is recorded with the exception of attorney communications, Willmore says.

Willmore can access the information with a username and password. He can review any video visits or phone call of any inmate in custody. Willmore cannot edit or make changes to any of the information. The Telmate systems are located in the pods where the inmates can use them.

Willmore says every time a phone or video call comes in, a timestamp is made. Rammell moves to admit three pieces of evidence.

First piece of evidence is a USB drive containing a phone call between Chad and Lori on June 9, 2020. The call was originally played at Chad Daybell's preliminary hearing. 

Next piece of evidence is a thumb drive containing a digital video visit between Summer Shiflet, Lori's sister, and Lori on June 24, 2020.

Next piece of evidence is a thumb drive containing a video visit between Colby Ryan and Lori on Aug. 3, 2020.

The call between Chad and Lori was made on the day police were searching Chad's property. Rammell now asks to play the phone call.

Lori begins by saying, "Hi, babe" and asks if Chad is ok. He says, "They're searching the property so Mark Means will be talking to you." Lori responds, "Ok. What, are they in the house?" Chad says, "No, they're out on the property."

Lori asks if they are seizing stuff. Chad says, "No, they're searching." As this call is being played, Lori lools at the screen.

Lori asks Chad what he wants her to do. He says, "pray." She says, "What can I do for you?" He says she should call Mark "maybe" and talk with him. Chad says he did call him and Mark knows what they are doing.

Chad gets a calling from someone else and says, "I love you so much." She says, "I love you" and asks if she should try to call him later. He says, "I don't know. I'll answer if I can. I love you and I'll talk soon."

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Powell says Tammy had no signs of high blood pressure or other health issues and the fact her husband was with another lady so soon led police to exhume her body. Police got a court order and it was performed at a Springville Utah cemetery.
 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

That appears to be it for today as a witness (my guess police or FBI) wasn’t able to appear.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

From WS commentary:

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I really enjoyed watching Surviving The Survivor (youtube) analysis of yesterday's proceedings, with amongst other guests Lori Hellis.

Guest attorney Dr Tracy Pearson seems to think there was a tell in the defense opening speech that Lori's attorneys have some knowledge that prevented them from saying outright that Lori is innocent. Don't take it as fact, but interesting take..

I thought it was a bit odd how they phrased it, but have no clue on implications. 

[Calm]

These two posts sum up the possible conclusions for me listening to the phone call between LVD and CD.  His tone convinced me he knows what is about to happened.  Add his uncontrollable impulse to speed off even after being warned he couldn’t leave without escort as soon as there is movement indicating something was found, which would be confirmed later as JJ’s body, even though he couldn’t see the details confirmed it for me. His excuse iirc was he was going to talk to his lawyer…

I had no doubt from then on that even if Alex Cox did the killings of the kids, CD helped with the burials…the seasoned gravedigger he was.  However, it is less certain for LVD though I am of the second opinion here. (Sorry about having to post posts before I am done, the board resets when I go to fetch the link or part 2 of something, so I have to save first even when unfinished.)

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Thank you for the transcript of the call between Lori and Chad as Chad watched LE recover the bodies of the two children he helped to bury.  

IMO the transcript can not show the black despair in Chad's voice as he told Lori the police was searching his property. He KNEW his life of crime was over and that his life was about to change forever.

On the other hand, Lori seemed not to grasp the significance of the police searching Chard's property, which leads me to wonder if she knew Chad and Alex had buried the children's bodies there. My opinion only.

Quote

Lori: 'Are you okay?'
Chad: 'No, they're searching the property.' 
Lori: 'The house right now?'
Chad : 'Yeah, yeah [unintelligible]. So Mark Means will be talking to you.' 
Lori: 'Okay. What, are they in the house?'
Chad: 'No, they're out in the property.'
Lori: 'Are they seizing stuff again?'
Chad: 'They're searching.' 
Chad: 'I'm glad you called.'
Lori: 'Yeah.'
Chad: 'So, we'll see what transpires.'
Lori: 'Kay. What do you want me to do? Pray?'

Lori never asks which property. She never even lived at Chad's house, yet her mind immediately jumps to "the house" (rather than "the apartment" where she lived or "the condo" where they lived together in Hawaii). Why would she assume it's the house if nothing happened there?

Then she asks him to clarify (twice!) whether the police are in the house or not. What other option is there, besides the yard?

She asks if they're seizing stuff, but as soon as he says "They're searching," she has nothing more to say. No questions, no denial, no confusion. Just an offer to pray for him

The above is not the complete transcript.  
 

Not sure where this fits, but it’s after the searching part:

Quote

Lori Daybell
"[Laughs]"
Chad Daybell
"Well, [unintelligible]"
Lori Daybell
"Mmmkay. What can I do for you?"
Chad Daybell "I'm unintelligible] pretty calm. I would call Mark, though. We need,
can you just talk with him?"
Lori Daybell
"Have you talked to him already?"
Chad Daybell
"[Unintelligible, possibly 'I've tried to call him since.]"

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

Prettylies&Alibis must type much faster as she is including a lot more detail in her tweets, though the others didn’t miss anything important.

[Calm]

This will come up later, yet came across this just now, so posting:

https://kslnewsradio.com/1930542/full-transcript-of-lori-daybell-secret-phone-call-recording/

This is one of the phone calls between LVD, CD, and Melanie Gibb.

This is the full transcript of the one discussed today.

https://kslnewsradio.com/1930594/transcript-of-lori-daybells-call-to-chad-daybell-on-day-of-childrens-discovery/

Edited April 12, 2023 by Calm

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

This will come up later, yet came across this just now, so posting:

https://kslnewsradio.com/1930542/full-transcript-of-lori-daybell-secret-phone-call-recording/

This is one of the phone calls between LVD, CD, and Melanie Gibb.

This is the full transcript of the one discussed today.

https://kslnewsradio.com/1930594/transcript-of-lori-daybells-call-to-chad-daybell-on-day-of-childrens-discovery/

Calm, I've forgotten, were the children dead when this phone call took place? Also, the only way that Lori could not be a sociopath or psychopath, is if she honestly believes she saw Christ and she thinks the children are safely in heaven and happier since the end of times is about to happen. That would make her delusional. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Calm, I've forgotten, were the children dead when this phone call took place? Also, the only way that Lori could not be a sociopath or psychopath, is if she honestly believes she saw Christ and she thinks the children are safely in heaven and happier since the end of times is about to happen. That would make her delusional. 

Long dead if you are talking about the one between her and CD. This was in June, she was in jail. 
 

If the one between LVD, CD at one end and Melanie Gibb at the other, that was in December or January iirc. Kids were dead before Tammy was killed.  Tylee was at the beginning of school year and JJ just over ten days later, I find it easiest to think of it like they were dead when school was getting going, Tammy died a week before Halloween, they were off to Hawaii right after Thanksgiving, police released the missing kids alert shortly before Christmas).  I dislike those who call him their stepfather, he was never that. Gibb had been asked to cover for LVD back when the police first looked for JJ by lying that JJ was with her in Arizona since LVD knew the police knew he wasn’t with Kay already. Which makes me believe Alex was on the phone to LVD pretty quickly after his confrontation to make sure she didn’t try what he did, which was claim they were with Kay. I wouldn’t be surprised if she was actually at home and didn’t answer the door because she wasn’t sure what to say. A mistake by an uncle who may not have been that close is maybe understandable, their mom would not have been and likely would have led to her immediate arrest (the police didn’t know at the time he was living with LVD and should have known…btw, was CD living there too?   Or was she living with him at his place, sleeping in Tammy’s bed?, whichever it is pretty yech, yech, yech; either Alex is obsessively being the third wheel destroying the lovey dovey couple’s honeymoon vibe or she’s playing Mom instead of Tammy everywhere). It is a pity the police ran into Alex first as that meant LVD got to live her Hawaiian dream for a couple of months. It would have been more satisfying to have her butt in jail just a few weeks after their joyous celebration of their plan to disappear all their problems (well, not quite all as Brandon was still upright) being so successful.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

This is the relevant part of the timeline though there is info missing, so I may put up the WS version:

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On Sept. 8, Tylee, JJ, Lori and Alex visit Yellowstone National Park. Officials say this is the last time anyone saw Tylee alive. The FBI later asks for help from anyone who may have photos of the family taken that day in the park.

Chad signs an application with Tammy on Sept. 8 to increase her life insurance to the maximum amount allowed on the policy.

On Sept. 9, phone records place Alex on Chad’s property in the general area where investigators would eventually find Tylee’s remains. That same day, Chad allegedly texts Tammy saying he shot a raccoon and buried it in their pet cemetery.

Lori enrolls JJ at Kennedy Elementary School in Rexburg on Sept. 3, principal Josh Wilson says. Less than three weeks later, JJ attends class for the last time and his mother unenrolls him, saying he would be homeschooled. Tylee was never enrolled in any school in Idaho even though Lori claimed her daughter was attending BYU-Idaho.

On Oct. 1, Lori rents a 10×10 storage unit from Self Storage Plus in Rexburg. Surveillance video at the facility, exclusively obtained by EastIdahoNews.com, shows Lori and a man visiting the unit nine times in October and once in November. Often the man, who appears to be Alex, comes alone. Another visit shows Alex and a man who appears to be Chad. During one visit, Chad and Lori visit the storage facility together.

On Oct. 2, Brandon returns from the gym to his Arizona home when he says he was shot at with the bullet missing his head by inches. Arizona Central reports the shooter was driving a Jeep registered to then-dead Charles Vallow. That same day, Lori purchases a wedding ring on Amazon, later seen on her finger at her beach wedding with Chad.

On Oct. 9, Tammy calls 911 and says a masked man shot at her in her driveway with a paintball gun. She posts about the experience on Facebook, saying she has no idea who the person was or why they would shoot at her. Court documents later indicate Alex attempted to shoot and kill Tammy that day.

Ten days later, Chad calls 911 and says Tammy died in her sleep at their Salem home. Detectives visit the home and investigators originally rule the death as natural. The coroner does not perform an autopsy. Tammy is buried at the Evergreen Cemetary in Springville on Oct. 22.. The family holds a memorial service in Rexburg the following day.

Two weeks after Tammy’s death, Chad and Lori are married in Hawaii on Nov. 5. They then return to Rexburg. Over the coming weeks, police say Chad told witnesses that Lori had no minor children. Police also say Lori told people Tylee died years earlier.

On Nov. 26, the Rexburg Police Department conducts a welfare check for JJ at the request of his grandparents, Larry and Kay Woodcock. They had not spoken with the boy in months. JJ is not at the townhome on Pioneer Road and Lori tells police her son was with her friend, Melanie Gibb, in Arizona. Police soon determine that JJ was not with Melanie.

The next morning, Nov. 27, the Rexburg Police Department serves a search warrant. When officers arrive, Chad and Lori are gone.

Court documents indicate that on Dec. 1, Chad and Lori catch an American Airlines flight to Lihue, Hawaii. The children are not with their parents.

On Dec. 6, Melanie Gibb contacts the Rexburg Police Department to say that Chad and Lori called her on Nov. 26 and asked her to lie about the location of JJ.

As deputies investigate, the Fremont County Sheriff’s Office determines Tammy Daybell’s death is “suspicious.” Tammy’s body is exhumed on Dec. 11and an autopsy is performed in Utah. The results of the autopsy are not released.

On Dec. 12, Alex suddenly dies in Gilbert, Arizona at age 51. In a police interview months after his death, Alex’s wife Zulema Patenas spoke with officers. She said that a few days before Alex died, he told her that if anything happened to him, there was money in a bag for her hidden in a closet.

On Dec. 20, the Rexburg Police Department announces JJ and Tylee are missing. Police say their disappearance is possibly linked to the suspicious death of Tammy. The following day, police call Chad and Lori “persons of interest.”

 

[Tacenda]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

This is the relevant part of the timeline though there is info missing, so I may put up the WS version:

 

Thank you Calm, that helps a lot.  Sorry for being so lazy! One thing I'd never seen before was the bold:

Two weeks after Tammy’s death, Chad and Lori are married in Hawaii on Nov. 5. They then return to Rexburg. Over the coming weeks, police say Chad told witnesses that Lori had no minor children. Police also say Lori told people Tylee died years earlier.

That's pretty damning evidence isn't it? 

[Calm]

Timeline link for above:

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/04/the-latest-timeline-of-events-in-the-vallow-daybell-murder-cases-april-2023/
 

Thanksgiving 2019 was Nov 28, so they ran for it the day before. Iirc they might have first gone to Knotts Berry Farm with his kids and then off to Hawaii. (I checked, she may not have gone with them…was this planned or a “surprise treat” from Dad for the family?  Likely intended as a farewell party by CD I am guessing.  I think they never intended to return to Idaho.

This is the extremely detailed timeline (goes back to LVD’s parents wedding iirc, through all her marriages, notable stuff in their lives, etc):

https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/id-joshua-vallow-tylee-ryan-rexburg-sept-2019-timeline-only-no-discussion.527845/

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Thank you Calm, that helps a lot.  Sorry for being so lazy! One thing I'd never seen before was the bold:

Two weeks after Tammy’s death, Chad and Lori are married in Hawaii on Nov. 5. They then return to Rexburg. Over the coming weeks, police say Chad told witnesses that Lori had no minor children. Police also say Lori told people Tylee died years earlier.

That's pretty damning evidence isn't it? 

It is bad. You want to feel sick, read the WS timeline for all of 2019.  It will take some time.

What she did to her family is insane. Poor Colby just remembered when it was convenient for her and ignored the rest of the time.

At least CD seems to have really cared for his family, though the marriage was a shock to them.  He apparently told them afterwards.  At least at first it seems they were not happy about it from what others said.  My guess is they still weren’t comfortable about it since she wasn’t at Knotts with them, but maybe she was spending the day at the spa and didn’t want to go.

I had forgotten how much detail they have on this.  WS collected any confirmed tidbit. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Calm

[bsjkki]

Todays thread. If you click on ‘read the full conversation’ you can read his live update. 

 

Edited April 13, 2023 by bsjkki

[Tacenda]

59 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Todays thread. If you click on ‘read the full conversation’ you can read his live update. 

 

Icky 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

Todays thread. If you click on ‘read the full conversation’ you can read his live update. 

 

A waiting room isn’t really even part of the temple, correct?  You don’t need a recommend to enter that area?

[Calm]

Quote

The group consisted of about 5-6 women. MG can’t recall their names. The destination was St. George, UT for a conference.

Seems odd not to remember even one name.  I can see her wanting to protect them, but if so, it means she is willing to lie.  I am rotten with names, but still it was only 4 1/2 years or so ago.  I am imagining being all in a car for however long it takes to get to UT from AZ, if they just shared a ride to and from the airport….

Edited April 13, 2023 by Calm

[Calm]

Lawyers and those trained in law (Ken?) alert…

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John Thomas objects to this statement. Judge overrules, Blake says this is a statement of an alleged co-conspirator.

I assume Thomas is objecting to hearsay and there is an exception happening here.  Can one of you explain the exception please?

[Calm]

I am going to pull out stuff that stuck me later, but just have to say the so called patriarchal blessing by CD…this was given on Nov 24, probably to strengthen a doubting, wavering Alex Cox.  It is absolutely disgusting when you realize this is likely two men who have murdered and dismembered/restrained and duct taped and suffocated two children.  At times like this I really, really wish God was into doing lighting strikes against the wicked who took his name in vain and so perverted his teachings.

you can read it here, though may not be verbatim yet

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2023/04/day-9-live-updates-daybell-case-resumes-as-melanie-gibb-gives-explosive-testimony-on-the-stand/

[Calm]

These poor jurors got dropped into it today, assuming they all told the truth of being more or less unaware of the case. The light/dark, possessions, zombies, all the distorted Church stuff just dumped on them.