More than One Way to Know the Church is True

[OGHoosier]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I think lots of people get stuck at that point, because that position has been around even before Descartes, and it's part of western Civilization.

To me coherence theory really is almost indistinguishable from anti realism since coherence implies structuralism: all knowledge is coherently based on human thought.

But the switch toward pragmatic anti- realism is inevitable, I think. It just takes a while to get it and absorb it

I mean when even Oprah understands " my truth" vs " your truth" and you hear kids using those terms, I give it a max of two generations before people stop making fun of visions and religious experience.

Dualism is just plain not justifiable intellectually anymore imo.

We can only know what we can know.

It's a tautology and there's no getting around it!

https://www.jstor.org/stable/41684439#:~:text=antirealist holds that while the,commitment to those truth conditions.

Man, I did not see myself being pulled towards philosophical anti-realism back when I started this whole theological journey. It's only been like 4 years, by the end of it I'll probably be blathering on about the Z-theory of time. 

In the meantime, I am slowly coming around to your way of things. I have been a hard nut to crack but God is nothing if not patient.

[theplains]

On 3/22/2023 at 2:01 PM, Hamilton Porter said:

That's quite the leap.

I can't speak to the many concubines part in relation to Jesus, but Orson Hyde taught Christ's
polygamy in the October 1854 General Conference. Brigham Young agreed.

“How was it with Mary and Martha, and other women that followed him [Jesus]? In old times, and it is
common in this day, the women, even as Sarah, called their husbands Lord; the word Lord is tantamount
to husband in some languages, master, lord, husband, are about synonymous… When Mary of old came
to the sepulchre on the first day of the week, instead of finding Jesus she saw two angels in white, ‘And
they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou?’ She said unto them,’ Because they have taken away my
Lord,’ or husband, ‘and I know not where they have laid him.’ And when she had thus said, she turned
herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus saith unto her, Woman,
why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if
thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Jesus saith unto
her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.’ Is there not here
manifested the affections of a wife. These words speak the kindred ties and sympathies that are common
to that relation of husband and wife”

I have endeavored to illustrate this subject for the benefit of the honest inquirer. I have only just touched it,
endeavoring to throw out a few hints for your consideration, that you may know we are not without some
reason for our faith and practice touching the subject of polygamy. I wish you to mind the admonition I have
given. I have given it to you in faith; I have given it to you regardless of consequences, for I ask no odds of
anybody, except of my Father in heaven, and of my brethren whose hearts I know to be pure; and I want to
be identified with them in time and in all eternity, and with my sisters too; and wish to be exalted with them,
and they with me, where the Saints may join hands after passing through much tribulation, and gaining
crowns, to rejoice together forever and ever.   ( https://journalofdiscourses.com/2/18 )

Brigham Young gives an amen to what Orson Hyde taught.

So much I wished to say to my brethren and sisters. We have had a splendid address from brother Hyde,
for which I am grateful. I feel in my heart to bless the people all the time, and can say amen to brother
Hyde's last remarks ( https://journalofdiscourses.com/2/19 )

Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt agreed too.

“One thing is certain, that there were several holy women that greatly loved Jesus — such as Mary, and
Martha her sister, and Mary Magdalene; and Jesus greatly loved them, and associated with them much;
and when He arose from the dead, instead of showing Himself to His chosen witnesses, the Apostles, He
appeared first to these women, or at least to one of them — namely, Mary Magdalene. Now it would be
natural for a husband in the resurrection to appear first to his own dear wives, and afterwards show
himself to his other friends. If all the acts of Jesus were written, we no doubt should learn that these
beloved women were His wives” (The Seer).

Further on:

“We have now clearly shown that God, the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity, by
whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His First Born… We have also proved most clearly
that the Son followed the example of his Father, and became the great Bridegroom to whom kings’ daughters
and many honorable Wives to be married.”
 

[mfbukowski]

10 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Man, I did not see myself being pulled towards philosophical anti-realism back when I started this whole theological journey. It's only been like 4 years, by the end of it I'll probably be blathering on about the Z-theory of time. 

In the meantime, I am slowly coming around to your way of things. I have been a hard nut to crack but God is nothing if not patient.

Thanks, of course I did not invent any of it. 

The Z theory makes me a little Ouchi though.  There was Groucho Marx, now we have Ouchi Marx. Been thru my Marx stage, but now I see why I liked Marxism so much!  Markie Marx! 

Is there a connection there where Satan wanted us all to be nice and comfortable and not worry about anything while he takes care of everything for us?  Hmmmm.... 😱

But seriously folks "antirealism" is the only realism based on a tautology, while the other kind is based on a completely unjustifiable dualism.  It's like the terms should be switched- realism is actually anti-realism and anti-realism is the only path to true realism!

"ACTUALLY"?

AUGH! 😱🤯

WHERE'S OUCHI ¿ Everything is upside down and I need my mommy!!!

 

[Hamilton Porter]

I'm starting to love the Gospel of John. It's a freaking epistemology handbook. And it works for the Restoration.

• John the Baptist testifies of me: See what Bushman said about sources closest to Joseph Smith
• These works testify of me: See the abundance of visions, healings, and prophecies in the early restored church and people try to explain it away with the hokiest theories
• The scriptures testify of me: See what Harold Bloom said about Joseph Smith and the Bible
• Do these commandments and you'll know if what I'm saying is true: Look at the transformation of the lives of people who live Mormonism. This thing definitely works.
• The comforter will bring things to your remembrance: See Moroni's promise, didn't work for me but worked for a lot of people

[Meadowchik]

"Know" is used far too generally in the church. 

But anyway there's more than one way to verify it's not true.