What conference talks or Book of Mormon passages are "wisdom literature"?

[Rain]

Dan Belnap while speaking of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Job  says wisdom literature is:

Quote

Wisdom literature is a term that is used to describe a number of texts that are often understood as advice. They’re not prophetic works. They’re not like Isaiah. They’re not like Ezekiel. They’re not that type of advice. They’re not prose texts, the same way you would think in first and second Kings, so they don’t have historical value in the same way. They are religious texts that I like to think provide insight into the daily living aspect of religious life.

Name a conference talk that you feel fits this - or a Book of Mormon passage.    

[Kenngo1969]

I don't have anything specific, and I'm not sure if this is correct or not: It simply occurred to me off the cuff.  What about any time Mormon or Moroni writes, "... and thus we see ..." or some similar phrase?   Could any passages that follow such phrases be seen as "wisdom literature," perhaps?  Just a thought.

Edited September 4, 2022 by Kenngo1969

[InCognitus]

President Hinckley:

[InCognitus]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Dan Belnap while speaking of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Job  says wisdom literature is:

In relation to the above, I was pleased to find that the "Thoughts to Keep In Mind" section inserted between the Esther and the Job lesson (at the end of July) in the Come Follow Me for Individuals and Families - Old Testament 2022 manual helped to prepare gospel students for a shift in the genre of writing in the Old Testament, in the article titled:  Reading Poetry in the Old Testament.  The article covered poetry (because of the study of the Psalms), but it also discussed Wisdom Literature, and it has this section at the bottom of the article:

Quote

Wisdom Literature

One category of Old Testament poetry is what scholars call “wisdom literature.” Job, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes fall into this category. While psalms express feelings of praise, mourning, and worship, wisdom literature focuses on timeless advice or deep, philosophical questions. The book of Job, for example, explores the justice of God and the reasons behind human suffering. Proverbs offers counsel on how to live well, including wise sayings collected and passed down from earlier generations. And Ecclesiastes calls into question the purpose of life itself—when everything seems fleeting and random, where do we find true meaning? You might think of wisdom literature as thoughtful conversations with inspired mentors who want to share some observations about God and the world He created—and maybe help you understand these things a little better than you did before.

[Rain]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't have anything specific, and I'm not sure if this is correct or not: It simply occurred to me off the cuff.  What about any time Mormon or Moroni writes, "... and thus we see ..." or some similar phrase?   Could any passages that follow such phrases be seen as "wisdom literature," perhaps?  Just a thought.

Ohh, interesting idea.  I think it does.  Belnap describes that wisdom literature comes in different forms, but having read through that link I shared I do think if fits, but I wouldn't have thought of that on my own.  

[Rain]

55 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

President Hinckley:

Yes!.  Reading this I was thought about his book, "Way to Be".  While not a conference talk it certainly first wisdom literature.   

[Rain]

52 minutes ago, InCognitus said:

In relation to the above, I was pleased to find that the "Thoughts to Keep In Mind" section inserted between the Esther and the Job lesson (at the end of July) in the Come Follow Me for Individuals and Families - Old Testament 2022 manual helped to prepare gospel students for a shift in the genre of writing in the Old Testament, in the article titled:  Reading Poetry in the Old Testament.  The article covered poetry (because of the study of the Psalms), but it also discussed Wisdom Literature, and it has this section at the bottom of the article:

Lol interesting!  I'm laughing because I haven't been reading the individuals section - I've been reading the Sunday School one since I teach Gospel Doctrine.  My lesson was all about parallelism for that middle lesson on Psalms.  

I like that transition. 🙂

[Metis_LDS]

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Dan Belnap while speaking of Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and Job  says wisdom literature is:

Name a conference talk that you feel fits this - or a Book of Mormon passage.    

2 Nephi, Chapter 4  verses 26 to 36.  It could be called Nephi's psalm.  Nephi speaks of his humanity and afflictions.

[Benjamin McGuire]

On 9/3/2022 at 10:33 PM, Rain said:

Name a conference talk that you feel fits this - or a Book of Mormon passage.    

We don't have any.

Wisdom literature is a literary genre. We can describe it in terms of its major themes, as Dan does, but this doesn't mean that any piece of literature which contains some (or even all) of those elements is Wisdom literature. There is no Wisdom Literature in the New Testament (but there are other genres in there). Wisdom literature as a genre is found in lots of places other than the Old Testament. The Old Testament isn't (for the most part) original. It borrows heavily (or at least duplicates heavily) other Wisdom literature traditions.

Our Book of Mormon doesn't include the genre of Wisdom literature (neither does the D&C or the PogP). We can see where it uses Old Testament wisdom literature - and perhaps even mimics it a bit, but it doesn't use this as a genre. The same is true for our conference talks - they are their own genre. The closest we come to Wisdom literature is in our hymns, which, like Old Testament Wisdom literature are not always original, but fit into a genre we share with contemporary religious groups.

[InCognitus]

On 9/3/2022 at 10:41 PM, Rain said:

Lol interesting!  I'm laughing because I haven't been reading the individuals section - I've been reading the Sunday School one since I teach Gospel Doctrine.  My lesson was all about parallelism for that middle lesson on Psalms.  

I like that transition. 🙂

I was really glad to see the explanation of Wisdom Literature in the Come Follow Me manual before studying the book of Job, and I liked that it explicitly includes Job in the category of Wisdom Literature.  I recall several different Gospel Doctrine discussions on the book of Job in the past where at least one class member was insisting that all of the book of Job was literal history because it was in our scriptures.  Similarly for the book of Jonah (but that's a different discussion).  So I was happy to see that the Church manual made special note that it was a different genre of writing than some of the books that proceeded it. 

Since you are a Gospel Doctrine teacher and you were asking the question in the opening post, I assume that you were teaching the lesson on Proverbs and Ecclesiastes yesterday?  (That's supposed to be a question).  If that's the case, then how did it go?

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

We don't have any.

Wisdom literature is a literary genre. We can describe it in terms of its major themes, as Dan does, but this doesn't mean that any piece of literature which contains some (or even all) of those elements is Wisdom literature. There is no Wisdom Literature in the New Testament (but there are other genres in there). Wisdom literature as a genre is found in lots of places other than the Old Testament. The Old Testament isn't (for the most part) original. It borrows heavily (or at least duplicates heavily) other Wisdom literature traditions.

Our Book of Mormon doesn't include the genre of Wisdom literature (neither does the D&C or the PogP). We can see where it uses Old Testament wisdom literature - and perhaps even mimics it a bit, but it doesn't use this as a genre. The same is true for our conference talks - they are their own genre. The closest we come to Wisdom literature is in our hymns, which, like Old Testament Wisdom literature are not always original, but fit into a genre we share with contemporary religious groups.

Thank you.

I knew those other things were not actually wisdom literature so I was looking for things that kind of followed the pattern. A way to step up the questions and do comparisons. I didn't explain that well.

[Rain]

5 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I was really glad to see the explanation of Wisdom Literature in the Come Follow Me manual before studying the book of Job, and I liked that it explicitly includes Job in the category of Wisdom Literature.  I recall several different Gospel Doctrine discussions on the book of Job in the past where at least one class member was insisting that all of the book of Job was literal history because it was in our scriptures.  Similarly for the book of Jonah (but that's a different discussion).  So I was happy to see that the Church manual made special note that it was a different genre of writing than some of the books that proceeded it. 

Since you are a Gospel Doctrine teacher and you were asking the question in the opening post, I assume that you were teaching the lesson on Proverbs and Ecclesiastes yesterday? 

Yes.

5 hours ago, InCognitus said:

(That's supposed to be a question).  If that's the case, then how did it go?

To be honest, not well.  I took education week classes years ago that very much helped my teaching.  I really enjoyed putting into practice what I learned there and how it helped me improve little by little.  This week and last lesson were a huge struggle to get people to participate.  

I know small part of it is hearing.  My husband and I for years have asked people to use microphones because we know well the people who need them to hear.  It is amazing to me the pushback we get on that.  It's not for us - it is for the people we talk to.  And the sound system in this ward just isn't great in the cultural hall.  We have too many to meet in the Relief Society room. This time there was a ton of echoing for me.  I asked if it was a occurring for others and I was assured twice that it wasn't so I pushed through trying to ignore the constant echo.  Later I found out that it was a problem for people on the front row as well.

Another problem I am having is that we cover way too many chapters in a lesson.  The church will highlight a part or two in 2-3 of the chapters, but you miss so much.  Most of the time I'm finding I would rather focus on 1 whole chapter than get a few verses from several.  But the more I am learning about context etc the more I am finding that what we cover in class is so very surface level.  I am grateful to @juliann for pointing me in a direction where I could begin to understand so much more because wow! it is so enlightening and has made reading the scriptures come much more alive for me.  So then trying to bring in what I am learning while teaching how Elder Bednar talked about in the Sunday School video has been really exciting.

But my last 2 classes have just been tough.  I did have one sister come up to me afterwards and tell me that my questions require some real thinking, which she said was good, but tough to answer quickly.  My husband told me the same thing after I shared that with him.  I recognized in class that hardly anyone had read the chapters and my husband said something about finding in this class that he needed to started reading as well so maybe something will change there for other ward members?

And it's not like I am doing a doctoral level or even a masters level class.  I just don't have the knowledge, ability, time to do it and I have to make sure to use church resources instead of outside sources. 

So I've got to find a way to reach both those who will never read and those who are so eager to learn more while still having the main focus on what the Spirit is wanting to happen.     

I'm also doing the church bulletin which I find take much more time than I would have thought. Depending on the other teacher's schedules I may not have another lesson till December. I'm not going to lie - I have fairly common thoughts run through my head saying I need to drop one of the callings, but I don't know which I would prefer for totally different reasons.

[LoudmouthMormon]

On 9/3/2022 at 8:33 PM, Rain said:

They are religious texts that I like to think provide insight into the daily living aspect of religious life.

Oh dang, top of my list would be Elder Oaks' 1998 talk Judge Not and Judging, in the August '99 Ensign.   A truly comprehensive guide for knowing what to think and say about anything you see, anyone you see, ever.  It guides political and religious discourse.  It guides how to interact with strangers and family and everyone else. 

I had it printed out in my planner thing, half a dozen years before I could link to it directly.  It's truly some of the best advice I've ever received on how to act around people.