Des News Article Re: "Under the Banner of Heaven" Mini Series

[webbles]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

When I c/p'd it came up. But maybe that's only on my end. 

I probably use heavenly father mostly too, unless I'm discussing on here. Saying "God" out loud, I still have qualms, because of my LDS culture. 

Yeah, the link you pasted is a "file://" link.  That is linking to a local file that is only on your computer.  So it works for you but no one else.  You could probably attach it to the post and then others can view it.  Or give an "https://" or "http://" link that works for everyone.

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, webbles said:

Yeah, the link you pasted is a "file://" link.  That is linking to a local file that is only on your computer.  So it works for you but no one else.  You could probably attach it to the post and then others can view it.  Or give an "https://" or "http://" link that works for everyone.

Thanks, I'm not tech savvy.

[Tacenda]

deleted

Edited June 8, 2022 by Tacenda

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Here's a story by a man that went to the Lafferty's for chiropractic care right after his mission and he got to know them pretty well. He does mention something very true. Back then to say "Heavenly Father" instead of "God" was more common than people are making it out to be. And come to think of it that's true. I was even afraid of using the expression "God". 

 

file:///home/chronos/u-912c05b9cc00f8d6debec4c30f20e1beb2588a83/MyFiles/Downloads/Me%20and%20the%20Laffertys.pdf

Where did you get it from?  What is its title?

Edited June 8, 2022 by Calm

[Pyreaux]

LDS are uncomfortable saying the Lords Name in Vain, thus its even more inaccurate because we may say "Heavenly Father" in a conversation, in a prayer or a gospel discussion and only while being specific of which God we are talking about, not in a vain context all the time. We wouldn't adopt a common vain expression like "God Knows" and think to substitute it with "Heavenly Father Knows" like we've improved the saying. Even if they were to say God's name in vain, they would just do it. no one I knows would say "Oh my Heavenly Father!" or even in less offensive expressions like "Heavenly Father-Speed!", like they improved it, they'd just go old school.

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Where did you get it from?  What is its title?

A gentlemen shared it on the Sunstone Under the Banner of Heaven facebook group that I discuss on. I reached out and asked for a better way to be able to share. I downloaded it on the computer but on here I'm unable to get an attachment. So I just figured out how to c/p it below but there were spots that needed fixing because it didn't copy off the PDF very well. There would be a random letter or number that I would delete. But it's basically exactly as he wrote it. He gave me permission to share. 

 

Me and the Laffertys  Lance Boldt 

I have a personal connection to the FX series, Under the Banner of Heaven. I knew Dan and Mark Lafferty. Here's that story. 

I will focus on only the points where my life intersected with theirs and things of which I have direct knowledge. Dan and Mark are the only Lafferty brothers that I have met personally. Any speculation I make is based on personal touchpoints. 

It's been 41 years now, so it's hard to sort things out into a strict chronology. So, some of what follows is organized topically. This may actually be good because it lays a background for events along the way. 

The video series is a fictionalized story based on actual events chronicled in Jon Krakauer's book of the same name. The series creator, Dustin Lance Black, interviewed Dan Lafferty in the Utah State Penitentiary and asked him if he had read the book and what he thought of it. Dan said it was spot on. 

So if you are interested in a more detailed and accurate telling of the tale than the TV show, read the book. I have read it and found it very thorough. Some do not agree with Krakauer's conclusion that Mormonism is a breeding ground for violent ideation. I am skeptical that a statistical analysis would support causality when looking at Mormon people as a whole. 

The Laffertys and others do cite Mormon teachings and history as being foundational to their own violent acts. The same is true of other religions. And people so inclined may see a sign in their morning Cheerios or on an episode of Sponge Bob. 

First, a couple of reactions to criticisms of the series that I have read. 

• This isn't an accurate retelling of actual events 

See above - it is a movie, not a documentary The dialogue is really weird and not the way Mormons talk 

It is really weird constantly saying "Heavenly Father" instead of "God” is accurate for the period. 

Back then we were told to avoid saying God - not just as a swear, but in any context. As a kid, my classmates and I loved making our Sunday School teachers squirm by 

working the word "God" into an innocent question. I grew up in Nevada and came home from my Michigan mission to Provo, Utah - so I 

was thrust into the environment as an adult. In my experience, some people spoke 

like that and others did not. I've read the same sentiment in social media comments on the topic. 

As a scriptwriter myself, I think the weird dialogue also serves the purpose of 

providing a bit of an education in Mormon culture. This device is more efficient than having to devote the first episode to explaining all the Mormon stuff. 

What a Mormon feels is extraneous dialogue serves to inform non-Mormons in the viewing audience. And the potential viewing audience is 98+% 

non-Mormon. This is a biased telling of Mormon history and culture 

Being well acquainted with Mormonism's historical events and, let's say, less 

flattering current and past practices, I can't fault much of the retelling The screenwriters didn't have any obligation to make this a "faith-promoting" rendition of the story or cast the church in a favorable light if it would be 

disingenuous to do so Bonus - I had a '77 Chevy like Detective Pyre. But he has a more upscale trim: plaid cloth seats... 

A couple of hours into writing this, I went to bed. In the morning, I saw that Radio Free Mormon had a new podcast episode. It was a lengthy portion of an interview by Tom Barbarri, a Salt Lake City radio personality back in the day, with Dan Lafferty on July 25, 2000 - sixteen years and a day after the murders. Dan's voice and manner brought back a flood of feelings. 

It might be good to pause here and listen to this episode to hear Dan's retelling of the events and his mindset. It is chilling to hear his firm belief that he was doing God's will. A little over an hour runtime. https://radiofreemormon.org/2022/05/radio-free-mormon-244-the-dan-lafferty-interview/

I was born into the Mormon church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints [LDS]). During the period I interacted with Dan and Mark, I had just returned from a two-year mission for the Mormon church at age 21 (September 1981). I was a sophomore at Brigham Young University and living at home with my family. I was married in February 1983 at the ripe old age of 22 (that's the Mormon way). 

I developed a neurological condition when I was 13. My dad was a proponent of chiropractic stuff, so we gave that a try after the University of San Francisco Medical Center couldn't figure out what to do with me. Dan and Mark Lafferty were my dad's chiropractors when I returned from my mission and I started seeing them right away. 

Their father was a chiropractor and the two brothers practiced with him. Their parents were serving a Mormon senior mission at the time I started as a patient. I remember being introduced to their mother when they returned home but never met their father. 

The practice was officed in the basement of their parent's home in Provo. It was a small single-story brick house built in the 1930 - 1950ish period. It was on a corner on 300 South 300 East. 

Dan and Mark dressed very professionally, in white shirts and ties with dress pants. Mark had a mustache - both had short haircuts that were typical of a professional environment. 

You may be wondering who this Mark is: he is called "Robin" in the series. Several members of the family have pseudonyms in the series because they were not involved in Ron and Dan's violent 

I were not as extreme in their beliefs. Mark continued a successful practice for decades after the awful events and later became the bishop of his local congregation. 

Ultimately, chiropractic did not address my issues (which remain undiagnosed - not for the lack of trying and several extensive and expensive neurological workups). I have not been to a chiropractor since then. 

I would usually see one or the other of the brothers. If there were no other patients in the time slot, they would both "work" on me. 

The brothers mildly disparaged their dad's old-fashioned“pop and pray" chiropractic techniques and kept up with current “best practices”. They subscribed to "applied kinesiology". I don't remember what all that entailed except for a couple of things. One, they didn't twist and "crack" your spine. They determined which vertebrae were out of alignment (with X-ray and by touch) and used a spring-loaded device to thump on a muscle next to the misaligned vertebrae and the muscle would rotate the vertebrae back into alignment. 

They were big believers in supplements. They used an interesting technique to determine what one needed and in what dosage. They would put a supplement on my chest and "challenge the spirit" by moving my foot, rotating it to the side, and then releasing it. I asked them to explain. They said that they were essentially communicating with my body through the Holy Ghost. By the reaction of my foot, they knew if I needed a given supplement and how many pills I should take as they added another pill until they got the "message" that it was enough. 

I am feeling very sheepish writing this out because it sounds absurd. However, at the time, I was wondering why the gifts of the spirit were not more in evidence in the modern-day church as they were in Joseph Smith's more charismatic times. I thought at the time that we should be able to do more through the spirit and the priesthood and that it was a lack of imagination, courage, and faith that kept us from enjoying those blessings. So, I went with it. 

I do believe that Dan and Mark believed sincerely in their practice, methodologies, and products. Those supplements did cost over $100 a month, so they made some bank (if dad hadn't been paying for it I couldn't have - that was two weeks' rent in those days). But, those 19 pills a day didn't move the needle at all. 

During those one-hour sessions, several times a month, we talked. Sometimes just one brother, other times both. 

They were really into the church. At first, that was all we talked about. I was one of those church nerds as a teen and would take my after-school earnings to the Seventies Book Store (before they were disbanded in favor of church-owned Deseret Books) and read Truman Madison and more obscure books on stuff like the Council of Fifty, etc. So the stuff I was reading was not in the lesson manuals, but it had still been screened through "semi-official" channels. 

I was unacquainted at the time with the history, doctrines, policies, and practices that are so freely available today for personal research. I knew only the "church line". But I was really curious about "the mysteries” and progressing as far as possible in my mortal existence - including the second comforter (a face-to-face visit with Jesus). Things that were only hinted at by church General Authorities, but held out as the pinnacle of our existence on earth. Those topics don't get much air time these days. 

So, we talked about that kind of stuff. To all outward appearances, Dan and Mark seemed to be very devout Mormons and deeply interested in all things Mormon and their relationship with Heavenly Father (see - I just said it too, just like Detective Pyre). 

The first thing that troubled me in our discussions was some criticisms of then church president Spencer Kimball and apostle Bruce McConkie. President Kimball was very ill at the time and had been basically incapacitated for some years. McConkie was fighting cancer. 

The Laffertys thought that if one were living the gospel, he or she would not get sick. These illnesses were evidence, in the bothers' eyes, that these top leaders were not faithful in keeping all of God's commandments and may have secret sins they were hiding or were in other ways not walking the true path. 

I didn't buy that - sickness and physical affliction are part of life to me - not punishments or the consequence of sin. It did shed a different light on what I feel was a big motivation to them as doctors of chiropractic medicine: to heal both the body and the spirit. There was little distinction between the two in their approach. And it underscored the distinct air of superiority they gave off. 

They applied that theory as well to the need to carry health insurance. To them, buying health insurance is conceding that God can't keep you healthy - a lack of faith. So they didn't accept health insurance as payment. 

The same applied to car insurance: pray in faith in the morning for protection, and you won't have an accident. Buying insurance constitutes a concession that you don't believe God can protect you from an accident - so he won't. 

They extended the same 'logic" to law and consequences in general. Things like speed limits and stop signs were unrighteous control by the government. They claimed that there was some Scandinavian country (I don't remember which) that had no speed limits, but that the consequences of an accident were proportionate to the damage caused to property and persons. So driving 120 mph was not a crime. But if you cause an accident while driving at that speed, you are responsible financially for the damage. You paid all of the victim's hospital bills and were imprisoned for an appropriate time. If a life is lost, then yours is to be taken as just compensation. 

All governmental licensing was an overreach to them. They did not comply with vehicle registration and safety inspections. Dan returned his driver's license and even - I learned in the above-mentioned podcast - his marriage license. 

As of this point in my story, they had not yet told me about the School of the Prophets. They were, I believe, "breaking me in" by starting with secular-related things. This brings us to taxes. 

As I said, their parents were on a mission. While they were gone, the brothers stopped paying state and federal taxes personally and for the business. They told me that the IRS was going to seize all of the equipment and furnishings. I told them that this wasn't wise and that the stuff was their father's and it wasn't their right to jeopardize his property. They were very set in their belief that not paying was the correct thing to do: fight the unrighteous "secret combinations" that were robbing us of our freedoms. 

Some weeks later, they told me, with some disgust, that their father had found out about the seizure notice and paid the taxes. 

These visits took place from November 1981 through March 1983. I don't remember seeing them as a patient after that. I hadn't seen any real benefit from the treatments and pills so I stopped going 

I want to go back to 1982 - maybe around March. I got a call from Dan at work. After some brief chit-chat, he said that his oldest stepdaughter had just turned 16. He said that she hadn't yet been asked on a date. Since she was homeschooled, her exposure to guys was limited to their ward. He conveyed that he had told her she would be asked out right after she turned 16, but it hadn't happened. He also said that he and his wife only wanted her to date returned missionaries. 

I told him that I thought that didn't seem right. Returned missionaries are supposed to focus their dating on finding their "eternal companion" and dating a 16-year-old would be out of whack for both the 16-year-old and the returned missionary. 

He said that he and his wife felt strongly about the "returned missionary only" rule. And that I should be the one to be her first date. I continued to resist for nearly half an hour. She was the receptionist at their office, so I knew her in passing. She was pleasant and a cute kid - emphasis on "kid". 

Eventually, I agreed to ask her to lunch. Dan said he would pay for it. I said no - if she ever found out he arranged and paid for her first date it would be hurtful. I told my parents about it because I wanted someone to know what was going on and to witness my reluctance and discomfort. 

I asked her out the next time I was in the office. We had lunch at a large (very public) restaurant. It was pleasant, but as a returned missionary and college man, I couldn't find much in common to talk about. It was as awkward as I thought it would be. And that was the end of that - until I learned of a timeline from some of the buzz surrounding "Under the Banner of Heaven". 

Dan's first wife - only wife at the time - had been married previously. I don't recall all the details, but she had several children from a previous marriage (at least three daughters). The 16-year-old just mentioned, and a 14 and 12-year-old. They had a couple of children together at the time. I remember running into Dan and his wife at the Provo temple once. And another time with some of their kids and baby in a stroller walking, around town. 

I don't recall the story of how they met. I believe it involved her sister somehow. In the series, she is Irish and a bit on the homely side. She is actually Scottish and was quite attractive. 

Here's where it gets creepy for me personally. There are conflicting stories surrounding Dan's excommunication: In the Barbarri interview, Dan says that he was formally excommunicated in 1984 for his vocal political views and for beliefs contrary to church teachings (like polygamy). I have also read that he was excommunicated in 1982 for "trying" (whatever that means) to marry both the 14-year-old and 12-year-old stepdaughters. This is also the chain of events used in the series. 

I don't know which is true. Perhaps the two claims can be reconciled by saying that he was involved in a membership review process in 1982 regarding his underaged polygamous stuff, but was not actually excommunicated until 1984. 

After learning about Dan's desire to marry these two stepdaughters a few weeks before this writing, I had the unsettling thought that Dan may have been hoping to bring me into his School of the Prophets gang by offering up his 16-year-old stepdaughter to me as a potential wife. First, this makes me sick to the stomach. But it also fits into the timeline of when he started introducing me to the School of the Prophets.

Dan and Mark told me about a study group they were having. They played it pretty close to the vest, just that they and their brothers and some like-minded friends met to discuss gospel topics. Of course, I'd heard of Joseph Smith's School of the prophets. I thought that to call their group by the same name was a bit pretentious, but it really didn't set off major red flags because they spoke in vague generalities. Informal study groups outside of regular church meetings were quite common in those days and were encouraged. Now they are all but forbidden. 

They never used the term "fundamentalist" or spoke of their visits with polygamist sects, or the bearded "prophets" and revelations that were integral to the group. I had no idea that it was anything more than a study group. 

They asked if I would be interested in coming to one of the meetings. It was a very squishy invitation, more like trying to feel me out about it. On one hand, I was very interested in all things Mormon - and I was a little flattered that they thought I might add to their study group. But I was a full-time student with a part-time job. And I was anxiously engaged in the whole finding an eternal companion bit - with a particularly good lead that worked out very well. 

I never did talk with Dan after March 1983. My dad remained a patient of Mark for many years after the killings. My feeling at the time was that Mark had begun distancing himself from the School of the Prophets - or at least the more extreme elements that involved Dan and Ron. I did see Mark one time many years later when he and I both happened to drop by my dad's business at the same time. Dad's impression was that Mark had left extremism behind. 

Through news accounts, I followed Dan's trajectory. I won't detail all the things but will just touch on some of my thoughts along the way. 

Dan ran for Sheriff of Utah County. He was emphasizing the concept of a "Constitutional Sheriff", which is an interesting concept that continues to this day in some very conservative political circles. 

He was very anti-tax and against pretty much all government regulation and licensure. He was arrested for dragging an officer at low speed during a traffic stop for having an unlicensed and unregistered vehicle. The officer reached in to take the keys - Dan rolled up the window on the officer's arm and slowly drove on. 

He focused on a phrase in the US Constitution (Article One, Section 10) that to him and his cohort, US currency must be backed by gold or silver. He and his fellows in the movement printed Silver Notes which they tried to use to pay their tax bills and stuff (even though they were not backed by actual silver and were completely nonnegotiable). 

His rallies were loud and proud. I remember reading about one in the paper and wanting to just drop by to hear the Brunson Brothers. They were native Utahns - four brothers that play the trumpet. They were -are - pretty spectacular, nationally acclaimed, and they were playing Dan's rally. My wife and I drove around the park in Provo where the rally was staged. But we quickly became a bit disturbed by the whole vibe of the anti-tax, anti-government, and creepy bearded extremist/fundamentalist vibe. We didn't even get out of the car. 

The final tie-in/remembrance is the site of the murders. Allan and Brenda Lafferty lived in a duplex in American Fork Utah with their daughter. The building was just a couple of houses north of Main Street, across from what is now a 7-Eleven. 

The building was destroyed many years ago - I think it was a fire. A single-family home was built on the lot. I've lived in American Fork and the neighboring towns since 2002. I have occasion to drive past the location several times a month and often remember its story. 

I find it interesting how the series has impacted me emotionally. I guess back during the time of the murders and their aftermath, I was focused on school, beginning a career, and starting a family. It was shocking, but it didn't hit me as viscerally as it does now with some miles under my belt. 

I know the pain of losing a child. I know the fears and concerns of having people I know well embrace extreme ideologies. I know the struggle of trying to reconcile church past with church present. 

So maybe that is why I have such a visceral reaction now. 

Thankfully, I never actually stepped all the way into the Laffertys' world. One Sunday morning some years ago, I was out running the snowblower through my Alpine neighborhood before church. I saw deer tracks in the snow on the sidewalk as I went along. After 50 yards or so, cougar tracks showed up and started following the deer. 

I assume the deer got away as I didn't come across any evidence to the contrary. But I wondered how close the deer came to "falling prey" to a mountain lion. 

I wonder the same thing about me and the Laffertys. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by Tacenda

[Kenngo1969]

On 6/6/2022 at 10:08 AM, Tacenda said:

I read an article or saw an interview with the actor that plays Detective Pyre and he mentioned he got his cues from an actual cop in Utah that was on a case with the FLDS and the detective lost his faith over it, whether it was researching into polygamy etc. not sure. So this is what he based the scenes on, according to the interview. Now to find the interview so you believe me. 😝 

The prospect that anyone would lose his faith over investigating the FLDS (or over any other extraneous matter) is unfortunate.  However, the FLDS are different than Ron and Dan Lafferty, so it, to an extent, it's an apples-and-oranges comparison.  While this poster posts under a pseudonym on the Deseret News comment boards (so there is no way for me to verify his or her information), one poster, "Flashback," has this to say about the officers and/or the detectives who investigated Ron and Dan Lafferty:

Quote

I know all of the AF [American Fork] cops that investigated the Lafferty murders and to a man (and woman) none of the investigators that were members of the church went inactive over this heinous crime. None questioned church history because they knew what the Lafferty's [sic] had become and didn't hold it against the church. They were bothered by the viciousness of the crime and the motives of the perpetrators.

Source [see the comments]: https://www.deseret.com/2022/6/7/23149268/perspective-the-church-was-my-escape-from-misogyny-and-violence-latter-day-saints-healing-trauma

[Tacenda]

42 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

The prospect that anyone would lose his faith over investigating the FLDS (or over any other extraneous matter) is unfortunate.  However, the FLDS are different than Ron and Dan Lafferty, so it, to an extent, it's an apples-and-oranges comparison.  While this poster posts under a pseudonym on the Deseret News comment boards (so there is no way for me to verify his or her information), one poster, "Flashback," has this to say about the officers and/or the detectives who investigated Ron and Dan Lafferty:

Source [see the comments]: https://www.deseret.com/2022/6/7/23149268/perspective-the-church-was-my-escape-from-misogyny-and-violence-latter-day-saints-healing-trauma

Thanks for the reminder. 🤗

[Calm]

Thanks Tacenda. 
 

added:  read it now, that was very helpful with providing context. The chiropractor stuff was similar to what I have come across except they specified it being the Holy Ghose rather than appealing to the idea of an energy field or something else quite vague…and I was never interested enough to push for a more precise definition. The supplements on the side is very much part and parcel of about 2/3s of chiropractors I have gone to (maybe about a dozen or so in Utah, Kansas, Colorado, and Canada…I got some relief from adjustments, but always temporary, the weirdest was once the totally unexpected ceasing of my tinnitus when combined with acupuncture, if it hadn’t been an hour in the car to get there, I think I would have gone again to him as rls was gone for the day as well, a first and only time that happened, but that could have been placebo effect, however I could not see how the tinnitus could be though as I never even occurred to me that would happen and it just wasn’t less, but completely gone).

Edited June 8, 2022 by Calm

[Tacenda]

Whole 'nuther one up on Netlix. I'm hoping the FLDS that are out there and won't speak to their family members who left will watch somehow and see the light. 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/08/entertainment/keep-sweet-pray-and-obey-review/index.html

[webbles]

Tacenda, thanks for posting it.  It was useful to see their views related to chiropractic and how they intersected with their religious and civic views.

I noticed he had some timeline mentioned in the letter and some things don't fit.

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

As of this point in my story, they had not yet told me about the School of the Prophets. They were, I believe, "breaking me in" by starting with secular-related things. This brings us to taxes. 

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

These visits took place from November 1981 through March 1983. I don't remember seeing them as a patient after that. I hadn't seen any real benefit from the treatments and pills so I stopped going 

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Dan and Mark told me about a study group they were having. They played it pretty close to the vest, just that they and their brothers and some like-minded friends met to discuss gospel topics. Of course, I'd heard of Joseph Smith's School of the prophets. I thought that to call their group by the same name was a bit pretentious, but it really didn't set off major red flags because they spoke in vague generalities. Informal study groups outside of regular church meetings were quite common in those days and were encouraged. Now they are all but forbidden.

If he only knew them from November 1981 to March 1983, they would have not be in the School of the Prophets.  They didn't join that group until at least November 26, 1984 (Onias received a prophecy on that day and that is what attracted the Laffertys to him).  During the time period he knew the Laffertys, they would be having meetings with just the younger brothers.  There would hardly be any non-Laffertys to these meetings.  Ron didn't start to attend until the end of 1982.

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I never did talk with Dan after March 1983. My dad remained a patient of Mark for many years after the killings. My feeling at the time was that Mark had begun distancing himself from the School of the Prophets - or at least the more extreme elements that involved Dan and Ron. I did see Mark one time many years later when he and I both happened to drop by my dad's business at the same time. Dad's impression was that Mark had left extremism behind. 

Through news accounts, I followed Dan's trajectory. I won't detail all the things but will just touch on some of my thoughts along the way. 

Dan ran for Sheriff of Utah County. He was emphasizing the concept of a "Constitutional Sheriff", which is an interesting concept that continues to this day in some very conservative political circles. 

He was very anti-tax and against pretty much all government regulation and licensure. He was arrested for dragging an officer at low speed during a traffic stop for having an unlicensed and unregistered vehicle. The officer reached in to take the keys - Dan rolled up the window on the officer's arm and slowly drove on. 

I'm a little confused about these dates.  If he had talked with Dan in March 1983, then he was still going to Dan and Mark's office during Dan's run for sheriff and his arrest and jail time.  Dan ran for office in 1982, was arrested in October 1982, and was jailed from January-March 1983 (45 days evaluation, 30 days jail).  It sounds like he wasn't talking with Dan when Dan ran for office, so I guess he only knew Dan until the middle of 1982 instead of 1983?

Also, Mark definitely started to leave the extremism before the murders.  He joined the School of the Prophet sometime in December 1983.  In April 1984, the School of the Prophets had a meeting where Ron tried to oust Onias.  This was also the meeting where every member finally heard of the "removal" revelation.  Mark left early but gave his vote to his brother Tim.  Tim voted against Ron.  Only Ron, Dan, and Watson Jr voted for the revelation and against Onias.  Interestingly enough, both Ron and Watson Jr had divorced by then.

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Here's where it gets creepy for me personally. There are conflicting stories surrounding Dan's excommunication: In the Barbarri interview, Dan says that he was formally excommunicated in 1984 for his vocal political views and for beliefs contrary to church teachings (like polygamy). I have also read that he was excommunicated in 1982 for "trying" (whatever that means) to marry both the 14-year-old and 12-year-old stepdaughters. This is also the chain of events used in the series. 

I don't know which is true. Perhaps the two claims can be reconciled by saying that he was involved in a membership review process in 1982 regarding his underaged polygamous stuff, but was not actually excommunicated until 1984. 

The excommunication was in either in the tail end of 1982 or the beginning of 1983.  It happened after his arrest on October 1982.  I think it happened after his jail time since up until the arrest, he was "normal" but his extreme beliefs really came out in the trial.  It had very little to do with polygamy and all to do with his extreme politics (this is per news articles of the time and a quote from the stake president who was over the excommunication).  I believe his desire with his stepdaughter was not known to anyone at that time.

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I want to go back to 1982 - maybe around March. I got a call from Dan at work. After some brief chit-chat, he said that his oldest stepdaughter had just turned 16. He said that she hadn't yet been asked on a date. Since she was homeschooled, her exposure to guys was limited to their ward. He conveyed that he had told her she would be asked out right after she turned 16, but it hadn't happened. He also said that he and his wife only wanted her to date returned missionaries. 

I told him that I thought that didn't seem right. Returned missionaries are supposed to focus their dating on finding their "eternal companion" and dating a 16-year-old would be out of whack for both the 16-year-old and the returned missionary. 

He said that he and his wife felt strongly about the "returned missionary only" rule. And that I should be the one to be her first date. I continued to resist for nearly half an hour. She was the receptionist at their office, so I knew her in passing. She was pleasant and a cute kid - emphasis on "kid". 

Eventually, I agreed to ask her to lunch. Dan said he would pay for it. I said no - if she ever found out he arranged and paid for her first date it would be hurtful. I told my parents about it because I wanted someone to know what was going on and to witness my reluctance and discomfort. 

I asked her out the next time I was in the office. We had lunch at a large (very public) restaurant. It was pleasant, but as a returned missionary and college man, I couldn't find much in common to talk about. It was as awkward as I thought it would be. And that was the end of that - until I learned of a timeline from some of the buzz surrounding "Under the Banner of Heaven". 

Dan's first wife - only wife at the time - had been married previously. I don't recall all the details, but she had several children from a previous marriage (at least three daughters). The 16-year-old just mentioned, and a 14 and 12-year-old. They had a couple of children together at the time. I remember running into Dan and his wife at the Provo temple once. And another time with some of their kids and baby in a stroller walking, around town. 

Interesting details.  I had thought Matilda only had two previous daughters.  I've been trying to track down that information but haven't had much success yet.

[webbles]

7 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Dan's first wife - only wife at the time - had been married previously. I don't recall all the details, but she had several children from a previous marriage (at least three daughters). The 16-year-old just mentioned, and a 14 and 12-year-old. They had a couple of children together at the time. I remember running into Dan and his wife at the Provo temple once. And another time with some of their kids and baby in a stroller walking, around town. 

I just double checked my notes and I missed where I had notes on the number of children.  Matilda had 2 daughters from a previous marriage.  See https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2022/05/22/screenwriter-families/ or page 89 in the book https://archive.org/details/underbannerofhea00krak/page/89/mode/1up?view=theater

I'm wondering if the 16 year old might actually be Ron's daughter?  I thought the oldest daughter of Matilda was 14 because that is the age of the daughter that was abused by Dan.  I'm not sure how old these stepdaughters are at the time of the murder.  I know the daughter was 14 at the age of abuse (see https://truecrimedaily.com/2016/05/26/prophets-polygamy-and-punishment-killers-daughter-speaks-out/) but I don't know what year that occurred.  Was it before Ron joined the brother meetings, before his excommunication, after his excommunication, etc?

[webbles]

I just came across a screenplay written in 2004 about the murders.  http://www.ldsfilm.com/scripts/screenplays/bloodbrothers.pdf

It is also not very factually correct (it is probably even more inaccurate than the tv show) but I find it interesting that it really connected the story of Nephi and Laban with Ron and Dan.  That's the story they would always point to when talking about the murders.  Dan was a modern day Nephi (and sometimes David).  He was commanded to kill the modern day Laban (Brenda).  Per the "removal" revelation, Brenda was stopping the "work of the Lord' and that is why Laban was killed.

That's the connection that I think the book and the tv show are missing.  It isn't blood atonement or temple oaths.  It is following Nephi's footsteps and removing the modern Laban's that are interfering in the "work of the Lord".

[webbles]

I found a fairly in depth series of articles that were written by Deseret News reporters.  I can't find a free online version of it, but I read it in the "The Times-News" from Twin Falls, ID.  It quotes from letters and taped conversations of Brenda.  Here's some entries that I grabbed a screenshot.  (The first journal entry is dated Feb 23, 1984 which is after the Laffertys have joined the School of the Prophets)

 

One thing the newspaper pointed out, that I haven't seen anywhere else, is that Brenda was saving money to leave Allen.  She needed about a month more and then she was going to go to Missoula, MT where her grandparents live.

[webbles]

On 6/3/2022 at 12:19 PM, Amulek said:

Also, does anyone who has acquainted themselves with the murders remember what Brenda was wearing on the day she was killed? The show depicted her in a bathing suit - though maybe it could have been one of those Jane Fonda, spandex workout kind of things - and it just felt really out of place. I'm not sure why the show runners decided to have her show so much cleavage for this last episode. Do they really think the audience needs to be reminded that she was a young, attractive woman in order to be horrified at her murder?

I found a newspaper article from 1985 that talked about what she was wearing, and yes, she was wearing a bathing suite.  Allen had left early that morning to go work on the Wolf Creek Lodges in Ogden.  Brenda took Erica outside and let her play in the water as Brenda did laundry.  Since it was a nice warm day, she wore a bathing suite and shorts.  Shortly before the murders occurred, Allen gave her a surprise call.  They talked and she told him she was getting a tan.  Allen joked "Someone might drive by, see you in your swimsuit and go in and get you."

Edited June 9, 2022 by webbles

[webbles]

5 hours ago, webbles said:

The excommunication was in either in the tail end of 1982 or the beginning of 1983.  It happened after his arrest on October 1982.  I think it happened after his jail time since up until the arrest, he was "normal" but his extreme beliefs really came out in the trial.  It had very little to do with polygamy and all to do with his extreme politics (this is per news articles of the time and a quote from the stake president who was over the excommunication).  I believe his desire with his stepdaughter was not known to anyone at that time.

Ok, the 1985 article that I just found corrects me on this regard.  It says that Dan was excommunicated on December 1982.  It also says that one of the cause of it was his abuse of his 14-year old stepdaughter.  Her friends notified church authorities and they had a church court.  He was declared guilty for the traffic issues on December 2, 1982.  He was excommunicated for his extreme political beliefs and for mistreatment of family members.  This was definitely not shared with the press because I would have expected to see articles about him abusing a child.  He was a mini-celebrity and child abuse articles were printed, so his story would definitely have been printed.

[Kenngo1969]

17 minutes ago, webbles said:

... One thing the newspaper pointed out, that I haven't seen anywhere else, is that Brenda was saving money to leave Allen.  She needed about a month more and then she was going to go to Missoula, MT where her grandparents live.

Too bad she didn't make it.  

[bsjkki]

So, did the series wrap up tonight? Joseph Smith is trending on twitter. 

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, webbles said:

I just came across a screenplay written in 2004 about the murders.  http://www.ldsfilm.com/scripts/screenplays/bloodbrothers.pdf

It is also not very factually correct (it is probably even more inaccurate than the tv show) but I find it interesting that it really connected the story of Nephi and Laban with Ron and Dan.  That's the story they would always point to when talking about the murders.  Dan was a modern day Nephi (and sometimes David).  He was commanded to kill the modern day Laban (Brenda).  Per the "removal" revelation, Brenda was stopping the "work of the Lord' and that is why Laban was killed.

That's the connection that I think the book and the tv show are missing.  It isn't blood atonement or temple oaths.  It is following Nephi's footsteps and removing the modern Laban's that are interfering in the "work of the Lord".

I think you're right that they should have leaned toward the latter in your last paragraph. 

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

So, did the series wrap up tonight? Joseph Smith is trending on twitter. 

Last Thursday. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, webbles said:

I found a newspaper article from 1985 that talked about what she was wearing, and yes, she was wearing a bathing suite.  Allen had left early that morning to go work on the Wolk Creek Lodges in Ogden.  Brenda took Erica outside and let her play in the water as Brenda did laundry.  Since it was a nice warm day, she wore a bathing suite and shorts.  Shortly before the murders occurred, Allen gave her a surprise call.  They talked and she told him she was getting a tan.  Allen joked "Someone might drive by, see you in your swimsuit and go in and get you."

I wonder if you meant Wolf Creek Lodges in Ogden or near Pineview lake up Ogden canyon. I've stayed there and it's about that old. 

[webbles]

15 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

So, did the series wrap up tonight? Joseph Smith is trending on twitter. 

The last episode was last week.

[webbles]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder if you meant Wolf Creek Lodges in Ogden or near Pineview lake up Ogden canyon. I've stayed there and it's about that old. 

It was Wolf Creek Lodges.  He was doing tile work.

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, webbles said:

It was Wolf Creek Lodges.  He was doing tile work.

It's just too bad how everything lined up to her eventual murder. How she was outside when they visited her house the first time and then they decided to turn around and go try again, and how Allen worked that day and kind of far away, at least 1 1/2 hours away and that he couldn't have reached her in time. It's all so awful.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Tacenda

[Calm]

6 hours ago, webbles said:

I found a fairly in depth series of articles that were written by Deseret News reporters.  I can't find a free online version of it, but I read it in the "The Times-News" from Twin Falls, ID.

Is this it?

https://archive.org/stream/The_Times_News_Idaho_Newspaper_1985_08_28/The_Times_News_Idaho_Newspaper_1985_08_28_djvu.txt

It came up when I searched “green and white book” and “Lafferty”

Added:  Too bad, only front page, I am guessing.

Is there a paid online version?

Edited June 9, 2022 by Calm