Des News Article Re: "Under the Banner of Heaven" Mini Series

[Calm]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

Oh my gosh!  I had no idea! Did you have to climb the wall daily?

So scary!  

It was the hill drop that got me.  Walking up that last bit always had me aching (lived there for a time, walked home from BYU as I hated the bus)…the house was right on the shelf, there is a bit of a cliff, then a cherry orchard.  Some developer tried to squeeze in some town houses in the gap…lovely to look out your back window into a wall of dirt, no doubt.  That road was dangerous enough too, didn’t need traffic on it.  Very much not like the usual grid as it followed the land contours.  His dad hit him with the station wagon driving up the hill when he was around 8 iirc, hard to see what’s right over the top. 

[california boy]

33 minutes ago, Calm said:

He didn’t just spout scripture, he went from quiet, deliberate, and cautious, to screaming at Allen and demanding he be in front of a firing squad…maybe by morning?  It was bizarre, almost a complete loss of control given how uptight the guy is.

Your RS Pres is trying to persuade with love, she isn’t having a meltdown, yelling in anyone’s face.  There is no anger, no telling them they are scum.  I am not saying discomfort of someone having a loss of faith or using scripture to engage is bizarre, I am talking about the viciousness, loss of control of it being contrary to the rest of the portrayal of Pyre.

I didn't find that unrealistic at all.  It was a pretty accurate description of what my dad would do pretty regularly with me when I first came out.  He would call me up and ask if he could take me to dinner. I tried to always respond to any family contact and would agree.  We would have a nice dinner at a local restaurant.  But EVERY time on the way home, my dad would start into a similar dialogue complete with quoting scriptures mostly from the Book of Mormon.  I would remind him that I could quote more scriptures than he could.  His diatribes were not helping our relationship. My ex wife talked to him and that seemed to finally end the lectures.  Unfortunately, the dinners also began to fade away.

The conversation I remember most is when he told me I should try dating women again. lol.  As if the problem was with my relationship with my ex wife. Like, he could accept the divorce, but not me being gay.

[Calm]

45 minutes ago, california boy said:

But EVERY time on the way home, my dad would start into a similar dialogue complete with quoting scriptures mostly from the Book of Mormon.  I would remind him that I could quote more scriptures than he could.  His diatribes were not helping our relationship. My ex wife talked to him and that seemed to finally end the lectures.  Unfortunately, the dinners also began to fade away.

Did he yell at you?  Have a meltdown? And was he mild and controlled the rest of the time?

You guys are getting distracted by the Mormon thing.  I am not on that page right now.  I am on the psychology/character development page.

I might be buying it if they had hinted at levels of rage,  like maybe slamming his hand against a tree or something after walking out of the crime scene.  But he has always been very deliberate, plodding even the rest of the time.  It is just so off balance for me as a character.  I am approaching this as a psychological issue, not Mormon culture.  I get that it is an unusual, highly stressful moment, but typical behaviour in a short term crisis is to hunker down and be even more of what you are habitually.  Rigidness doesn’t break out of character at the drop of a hat.  It’s one’s habits that mess one up in unfamiliar territory because one isn’t looking for new approaches but sticking with the tried and true for comfort.

I am critiquing the show from at least three viewpoints…Mormon culture and doctrine of course, but the crime drama fan in me can’t be quiet and neither can the part that wants real characters in a recreation.  Impossible characters are great, but in impossible stories please…not something “ripped from today’s headlines”…or 40 years old headlines.  I expected the Mormon culture to be off some, so I am surprising myself to being more bugged by the other two as hours pass.  I am more amused by the Mormon stuff (save for that closing scene), but the consumer in me is ticked off I am having to endure a crime drama I wouldn’t watch because it would have lost me in the first 15 minutes.  It isn’t escapism like the Agatha Christie manor mysteries genre and it isn’t getting to me as ‘a bad day in the life of a cop’ genre, which I watch for interesting characters and relationships in difficult circumstances, seeing how characters develop either

I know nothing of this director save he got an Academy Award, well respected and he has done some autobiographical stuff about his early life if I am remembering correctly.  The respect set my expectations high, I was figuring an interesting story with well rounded characters and it is one dimensional characters, but even there we get a big step out of Pyre’s dimension. Is Black’s work more quirky than realistic?  That would explain part of the issue for me.

 

However, I am no movie critic, don’t usually read reviews, and never studied the art.  Would be interested to hear from people who have made that their hobby.  Wish I could talk my sister into watching it (the former Eng Lit professor) to get her opinions on the characters, but she never got into crime dramas.  Maybe we can get some of the professionals in the therapy field who post here to add their insights…if they haven’t already…I should go and check.  I might be more sensitive to what I see as misses in character development because I am already sensitized to misses in portraying the historical (80’s Utah culture) environment.  The out of character moment may not be as bad as it appears to me, am curious for the viewpoint of someone who watches movies and all for more than just entertainment…or rather who takes their entertainment seriously.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Now he might have waved his right…?  The family was antigovernment, maybe they had a thing about lawyers.  But a gruesome double murder…I might go back and read the appeal transcript to see if it said anything about that, though Allen wasn’t charged with anything as far as I know, even though some thought he should have because he was aware of the revelations for two months but said nothing to his wife.

Dan and Ron both wanted to represent themselves in the trial.  Ron didn't because of how his attempted suicide messed with his mental abilities (his personality, per the newspapers, was drastically different from December 1984 [pre-suicide] and his actual trial).  Dan was a "sovereign citizen" believer and didn't accept the laws of the land.  Most of the brothers were members of the School of the Prophets or attended it (including Allen).  I would bet that Allen, at that time, was also a "sovereign citizen" believer and so didn't see that much value in lawyers like his brothers.

Allen was never tried with anything.  He was a witness for the prosecution and they asked him about that (per the newspapers).  He basically said that he knew of the revelation (he never saw it) but didn't think anything would actually happen because of it.  He didn't tell his wife because he didn't want to worry her about it.

[katherine the great]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

Did he yell at you?  Have a meltdown? And was he mild and controlled the rest of the time?

I might be buying it if they had hinted at levels of rage,  like maybe slamming his hand against a tree or something after walking out of the crime scene.  But he has always been very deliberate, plodding even the rest of the time.  It is just so off balance for me as a character.  I am approaching this as a psychological issue, not Mormon culture.

I thought it was a bit over the top too-especially towards a stranger. However, when I inadvertently said something negative about the church in front of my mom (about 20 years ago) she FREAKED out at me. Very similar to Jeb’s tirade. She has a personality disorder though so…

Edited April 30, 2022 by katherine the great

[Calm]

1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

She has a personality disorder though so…

There are lots of people and characters I would see this as normal from…this case just feels too unbalanced to me.  It feels like Black is too invested in an agenda to care about his character. (Yeah, I know I take this too seriously, but reading was my life as a child and youth and I see fictional characters as individuals deserving of respect of who they are…which is why I can’t watch too many movie adaptions of books as they feel like betrayals of the individuals if altered too much, also hate reboots.)

I have a near relative who we walk on eggshells around because everything can be perfect one moment and WWIII the next.  I have been screamed at like that myself (minus the scriptures).  I have my own meltdowns in fact that had my son cringing at me once, which really red flagged my behaviour to me (I had allowed it because it was the only way to get my husband to deal with the negative in his life, me getting angry at him gave him permission to let loose as well as pushed his frustration high enough he would finally express it).  My husband freaked my kids with his road rage (sports was the only other thing his original temper was allowed out for), that thankfully he learned to control (he had a violent temper as a kid and his shame of it as well as his family’s ignoring of negative emotions caused him to shut down and deny all negativity).  But this kind of stuff is firmly grounded in who we are.   I know it was the first episode and not that far into it, but I still think a good writer would have given us a hint at fires in the depth before letting them loose.  Maybe some clear outrage beyond an “evil” at the crime scene.  Something less passive than being sickened by the sight.  But I may be expecting too much.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

Allen was never tried with anything.  He was a witness for the prosecution and they asked him about that (per the newspapers).  He basically said that he knew of the revelation (he never saw it) but didn't think anything would actually happen because of it.  He didn't tell his wife because he didn't want to worry her about it.

I really want to see how they justify Allen calling his brothers “men with beards” rather than blurting out their names in stunned horror.  He knew about the prophecy, so there is no reason for him to assume it was someone else from the School of the Prophets cult or even Lafferty’s School of Prophets (no the)

https://www.grunge.com/848407/who-was-the-founder-of-ron-and-dan-laffertys-school-of-prophets/

Quote

Already prone to fundamentalist thinking such as polygamy, the Lafferty brothers were excommunicated from the mainstream LDS church. They spent some time afterward as a part of a similarly-minded Mormon splinter sect, also known as the School of the Prophets. This one was founded by R.C. Crossfield, a self-proclaimed prophet also known as Onias. (A statement on this period from Crossfield himself is available to read online.)

Over time, though, the extremist thinking of the Lafferty brothers became even too much for Crossfield's School of the Prophets sect. As a result, Dan and Ron Lafferty were once more excommunicated. At this point, the Lafferty brothers founded their own sect, also called School of Prophets, and Ron Lafferty claimed to be a prophet, per True Crime Daily. Ron and Dan Lafferty wanted a return to polygamy in the church, among other patriarchal and outmoded views on marriage. There were alleged instances of child sexual abuse with Dan's own stepdaughter.

Five of six Lafferty brothers became involved in their brother's new School of Prophets. The one Lafferty brother to not join with Dan was Brenda's husband, Allen. Some speculate that Ron and Dan Lafferty's true motivation for killing Brenda and her daughter was in retaliation to Brenda's reticence toward her husband Allen getting involved in this new School of Prophets sect, according to an AP report. Brenda also played a part in supporting Ron's wife, Dianna, escape her marriage (via E! News).

So ProphetShiloh who stopped by some months ago was from this Crossfield group….thought he was the successor, wonder how many others call themselves as cult leaders eventually in cults they belong to.  Kind of like wondering how Satan keeps his minions in line as wouldn’t most of them think of themselves as the legitimate boss?  Rebellion can be a habit.

https://www.mormondialogue.org/profile/34150-prophetshiloh/

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[katherine the great]

56 minutes ago, Calm said:

I know it was the first episode and not that far into it, but I still think a good writer would have given us a hint at fires in the depth before letting them loose.  Maybe some clear outrage beyond an “evil” at the crime scene.  Something less passive than being sickened by the sight.  But I may be expecting too much.

I haven’t ever read this book. Did Black add the characters of the detectives? I know this is based on a book but  I’m not sure which characters were in the book and which were added for the mini series.

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

I haven’t ever read this book. Did Black add the characters of the detectives? I know this is based on a book but  I’m not sure which characters were in the book and which were added for the mini series.

The book is a documentary.  The actual detective in charge was Terry Fox.  The two detectives and probably all the police are fictional characters in the series.  At this point I am thinking everyone is except the Laffertys and Wrights.  This is more fiction than real imo.  Kind of like the Titanic, but not quite as frictional.  Maybe Hidalgo, which presented itself as more or less true to actual events iirc, but was way off by some reports.(added:  just refreshed my memory and that is worse than Titanic, which at least actually sank…https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidalgo_(film)#Fact_and_fiction )

I may have to read the book, but I am less interested in interviews from DL and RL and more from everyone else. Plus I just purged my shelves and it would have to be from the library and won’t be likely to get a copy for too long.   Hanna Searic says she is pulling material together about Brenda, hoping that is sooner than later.  

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[Amulek]

18 hours ago, california boy said:

Fridays is when a lot of talk show hosts have a movie critic come on the radio and talk about the movies that are coming to the theater, and now also the movies that are being shown on TV.  I heard two reviews today on this movie.  Both critics described the series as being very well done and also very dark.  Both gave two thumbs up.  Both are well known film critics.  And both of them have already seen all of the episodes.  One said that this is not a series you want to binge watch because it is pretty dark.  

I don't think anyone has seen all of the episodes. Media critics were given access to the first five, so they've seen almost the entire thing but that ought to be more than enough to form an opinion. And from what I've seen so far, reviews appear to be mixed. 

If I had to give it a rating after watching just the first two episodes, I would probably give it a 6 out 10; and the 6 is being generous in hopes that some of the problems from the first two episodes don't persist through the season.

 

18 hours ago, california boy said:

I was kinda surprised, because I think the dialogue in the first episode was a bit over the top. It seemed better in the second episode.  

Agreed. The dialogue in episode one was distractingly bad - like, almost give up on the show bad, but it did improve slightly in episode two. 

I did, however, really like seeing Daisy Edgar-Jones' character singing The Rose. That was very much on target - though, I would have had it been at a roadshow instead of an actual talent competition. 

 

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Amulek said:

did, however, really like seeing Daisy Edgar-Jones' character singing The Rose. That was very much on target - though, I would have had it been at a roadshow instead of an actual talent competition. 

I don’t know if she sang that, but she was in the competition so I am glad that part was real.  Twins Fall County had a population of 51,000 in 1979; I wouldn’t be surprised if it was held in a better building with more audience.  But that is not from experience, I have just heard beauty contests were big things in rural and semi rural areas.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

Perhaps it would help for me to confess that for every minute of a show I watch, if you get me going analyzing it, I will provide probably an hour’s worth of commentary at a minimum unless I control myself. And not on worthwhile things. Remember I spent time looking up if Taba’s straw was too fat and the brand and model of the typewriters in the police station. That isn’t me pulling out all the stops for something special, that is me restraining myself so I can finish my review in a timely manner. Normally if I am invested in a show, I could have looked up all the major (and some minor if I vaguely remembered them or they struck me as interesting) actors to see what they had been in, looked for locations (okay, got to admit I did that a bit), checked food, restaurants that looked cool to see if real, etc.   The internet has let loose the eternal nitpicker in me.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

Just a wee note in case anyone else is confused by a word choice. Dad Lafferty calls Dan his “eldest son to follow in my footsteps”. 26 mins left.  I assumed it meant Dan was his eldest son and I was misremembering (never was good at reading age from faces, so just ignored that), but Ron is 8 years older.  Dad is meaning “my oldest son who is a chiropractor like me”…but I get that eldest sounded more religious. 🙄

So it is the reverse of Jacob Esau, as Mom loves the older one best and Dad loves the younger one who is a chiropractor like he is.  Still all as whacked as ever though.  But makes more sense why Ronny Boy is POed at Dan being put in charge. And why Dan was/is so proud he killed them while Ron was denying it and saying it was a conspiracy.  It is not just a prophecy of who is the real One Mighty and Strong and because Dan is an idiot (he reads gawky low intelligence to me, the guy who makes stupid innuendos because he can’t think of anything of substance to say), there was a contest for leadership.

https://newspapers.lib.utah.edu/details?id=29121293, a little from Lafferty:

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Calm

[Calm]

Just dropping here for future reference to compare when I get there, one of the links webbles posted, Police Chief is named Randy Johnson.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Calm

[Amulek]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

I don’t know if she sang that, but she was in the competition so I am glad that part was real.  Twins Fall County had a population of 51,000 in 1979; I wouldn’t be surprised if it was held in a better building with more audience.  But that is not from experience, I have just heard beauty contests were big things in rural and semi rural areas.

Oh, by 'on target' I didn't mean to suggest it was factual - just that it was one of the elements in the show that seemed to have done a good job capturing the feel of things at the time. 

 

[Amulek]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

The out of character moment may not be as bad as it appears to me, am curious for the viewpoint of someone who watches movies and all for more than just entertainment…or rather who takes their entertainment seriously.

I'm no film critic, but I have watched a fair amount of tv/film over the years and I would say that there have been a few stand out problems with the show so far. The biggest, from an entertainment perspective, has been the pacing; it has been an absolute slog thus far. So much so in fact, that if it doesn't start to improve in a meaningful way over the next episode or two I may end up deciding to abandon the show entirely even though I am very much a completionist by nature.

Another problem is that, in an apparent effort to stay true to the book, the showrunners have decided to keep all of these weird flashback sequences depicting the founding era of the church. I never read the book, but I strongly suspect this sort of thing worked much better on the written page, because on screen it has been pretty jarring, and not in a good (or even impactful) way. Instead, they tend to be mostly a distraction from the action taking place on screen (which is another example of the pacing problems I mentioned before). Also, the production values on the historical scenes are markedly worse than the rest of the show which serves to take you out of the story as well.

Oh, and speaking of things that take you out of the show: I'm having a really hard time believing that a detective in Utah has never run across fellow Mormons doing really bad things before. I guess we're just supposed to believe that this is the magic case that causes him to doubt his faith. Whatever.

Also, I'm really not liking the casting for the partner of everyone's least favorite Spiderman. He's much too old, and the chemistry really isn't there. Most of that is on the writers though; if they can't elevate these cops above your average episode of Law & Order (dun dun!) then that's on them.

I'm hopeful that things will get better though. If some of the pacing problems improve and they tighten up the storylines a bit, it might end up being a good show. From what I've seen so far though, it's pretty mediocre.

If someone were interested in watching a show about Mormons, murder, faith, etc. I think I would be hard pressed to recommend Under the Banner of Heaven. They would be much better of snagging an old copy of (now former member) Richard Dutcher's Brigham City instead.* 

 

*P.S. If you are actually interested in watching it, try to avoid reading any plot summaries. It's a murder mystery, and you won't enjoy it nearly as much if you go into film already knowing who-dun-it.

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Amulek

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Amulek said:

I don't think anyone has seen all of the episodes. Media critics were given access to the first five, so they've seen almost the entire thing but that ought to be more than enough to form an opinion. And from what I've seen so far, reviews appear to be mixed. 

If I had to give it a rating after watching just the first two episodes, I would probably give it a 6 out 10; and the 6 is being generous in hopes that some of the problems from the first two episodes don't persist through the season.

 

Agreed. The dialogue in episode one was distractingly bad - like, almost give up on the show bad, but it did improve slightly in episode two. 

I did, however, really like seeing Daisy Edgar-Jones' character singing The Rose. That was very much on target - though, I would have had it been at a roadshow instead of an actual talent competition. 

 

Oh, you are right.  The critic did say that he had seen 5 episodes.  I just assumed that was how many episodes in the production.

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

The book is a documentary.  The actual detective in charge was Terry Fox.  The two detectives and probably all the police are fictional characters in the series.  At this point I am thinking everyone is except the Laffertys and Wrights.  This is more fiction than real imo.  Kind of like the Titanic, but not quite as frictional.  Maybe Hidalgo, which presented itself as more or less true to actual events iirc, but was way off by some reports.(added:  just refreshed my memory and that is worse than Titanic, which at least actually sank…https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hidalgo_(film)#Fact_and_fiction )

I may have to read the book, but I am less interested in interviews from DL and RL and more from everyone else. Plus I just purged my shelves and it would have to be from the library and won’t be likely to get a copy for too long.   Hanna Searic says she is pulling material together about Brenda, hoping that is sooner than later.  

The critic that I heard talking about the movie said that the lead detective (garfield's role) is a made up amalgamation of the detectives that worked on the case. He didn't say where he got that information, but I am guessing from the press kit.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

The critic that I heard talking about the movie said that the lead detective (garfield's role) is a made up amalgamation of the detectives that worked on the case. He didn't say where he got that information, but I am guessing from the press kit.

I haven’t seen it mentioned anywhere (or at least don’t recall) and I would think it would be. It is a standard explanation though, so I can see someone assuming that is what was done rather than completely made up like Pyre feels like.  (I have had lots of spacey times the past couple of days, so I can’t  honestly say I have read complete reviews except twice maybe. Once they start repeating what I have read already, my eyes lose traction and start sliding around in the page)
 

Terry Fox, the lead detective, had a child Erica’s age. I just remember the two daughters for Pyre.  Was there a third, a toddler?

Edited May 1, 2022 by Calm

[webbles]

2 hours ago, Amulek said:

Oh, and speaking of things that take you out of the show: I'm having a really hard time believing that a detective in Utah has never run across fellow Mormons doing really bad things before. I guess we're just supposed to believe that this is the magic case that causes him to doubt his faith. Whatever.

The actual real life detective, Terry Fox, gave an interview back when Ron died.  You can see it at https://ksltv.com/425443/former-officer-in-lafferty-case-opens-up-about-murders/.  In there he says:

Quote

“I’ve seen a lot of death in my career,” Fox said. “This one was different in the case, that it was religiously motivated. You can use the word brutal, horrific. And I just don’t throw those out lightly because this was a really, really brutal murder. It was different from a lot of crime scenes in a lot of ways.”

I don't know if the investigation caused Fox to "doubt his faith" but he does see it as a different case than all the others he has seen.

[webbles]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

I really want to see how they justify Allen calling his brothers “men with beards” rather than blurting out their names in stunned horror.  He knew about the prophecy, so there is no reason for him to assume it was someone else from the School of the Prophets cult or even Lafferty’s School of Prophets (no the)

Is that from the show (the "men with beards")?  Because in the real life version, it sounds like Allen guessed pretty quickly who had done it and told the police.  They also had eye witnesses of Ron being there.  By the next day, the police already were searching for Ron and Dan and the other two men with them.

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, webbles said:

Is that from the show (the "men with beards")?  Because in the real life version, it sounds like Allen guessed pretty quickly who had done it and told the police.  They also had eye witnesses of Ron being there.  By the next day, the police already were searching for Ron and Dan and the other two men with them.

Yes. He just goes on and on and they yell at him and threaten and still “men with beards” only.  They are even thinking Allen killed everyone else because of family pressure over his own loss of faith. 
 

Apparently he is currently an active member with his second wife.  He did get involved with his brothers, but his wife pulled him out.  I am wondering if Allen’s crisis of faith is made up. 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Calm

[webbles]

I learned that Ron had a retrial in 1996.  It occurred between March 26 to April 11.  Here's the Daily Herald links to both of those dates: March 26, 1996 and April 11, 1996

The April 3 issue has Dan testifying that he's the one that committed the murders, not Ron.  Also, Mark Hoffman was also a surprise witness.  You can read about his testimony in the April 10 issue.  He was a cellmate with Dan and testified that he heard Dan confess to the murders.  Another interesting thing about Hoffman's testimony is that he (Hoffman) said that Dan said that when he (Dan) came back from killing the daughter, he saw Ron standing over a passed out Brenda.  Ron said that she was dead and that he (Ron) had choked her to death.  But Dan recognized that she wasn't dead so Dan killed her with knife.  That shows that Ron didn't plan to slash Brenda's throat and also puts a dent in the theory of blood atonement since chocking doesn't spill blood.

[webbles]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

Yes. He just goes on and on and they yell at him and threaten and still “men with beards” only.  They are even thinking Allen killed everyone else because of family pressure over his own loss of faith. 
 

Apparently he is currently an active member with his second wife.  He did get involved with his brothers, but his wife pulled him out.  I am wondering if Allen’s crisis of faith is made up. 

Could the "men with beards" be talking about the other two men with Dan and Ron?  I just read an article in April 9 issue of the Daily Herald and the author says

Quote

By the following morning, half the country was scurrying to find Ron and Dan Lafferty and two mysterious and bearded accomplices who had been seen leaving the scene of the murder.

I haven't seen the show as I don't have Hulu but maybe that's what is actually being talked about in the show?

[Calm]

30 minutes ago, webbles said:

Could the "men with beards" be talking about the other two men with Dan and Ron? 

That is something like what I thought.  Perhaps Allen in the series is thinking either the School of the Prophets men led them astray or the two men who joined them…maybe he is hoping they did it. 
 

But whatever, it looks like another departure from what happened. 
 

I need to read reviews of Banner, sometimes reviews provide fact-checks and background. Given Krakuaer’s reputation, I would prefer other references that. 
 

Really appreciate you doing this digging. 

37 minutes ago, webbles said:

I haven't seen the show as I don't have Hulu but maybe that's what is actually being talked about in the show?

Hmmmm