We do not wholly and totally take upon us the name of Christ in the waters of baptism

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Lets not forget that salvation is the first step; we work out our salvation and complete it in the NT sense when we then focus on our sanctification (growth, maturity, becoming more Christ-like) in our Christian lives. Perhaps it is correct to say that salvation is the gift (comes as the result of a terrible price) and sanctification is the work (not works). Sanctification is the struggle with self. It is not the taking of cookies to a neighbor. Sanctification is as much the struggle to be, as it is the struggle to do. They are very different attributes and of course are interconnected.

I have never heard the word sanctification used in an LDS church service in the terms of Christians becoming more mature, holy, and committed. It is used only in terms of the sacrament elements which is a very different concept. I have a sense there are some correlations between "Sanctification" and "Exaltation" but I have never seen them codified or explained by anyone. I think sanctification is primarily an earthly task that continues in eternity. I think perhaps for the LDS exaltation is an earthly process that impacts our eternal destiny and then continues in eternity. I am willing to stand corrected.

I have heard sanctification used that way many times in our church services. The biggest proponent was a stake president who was trying to teach people in his stake how to sanctify themselves. I have some suspicions about him. Good ones. He had an ‘aura’ for lack of a better word that I rarely find. I have met only a handful of people who feel like that. They just feel holy.

[Navidad]

47 minutes ago, Calm said:

What about fundamentalists?  Maybe LDS sites used to attract this minority as it seemed we had quite a few that would drop by and a couple that stuck around for years.  The long timers described themselves as evangelicals, but my memory says they fall into your category of fundamentalist more.

First of all Calm, I want to thank you for making a distinction between Fundamentalist and Evangelicals. Thank you.

Fundamentalists especially do not focus on grace alone. There is always another layer with them (in my opinion). Sometimes that layer focuses on what they don't do - don't play cards, don't dance, don't go to movies, don't smoke, drink, chew, or go with girls who do! That is a kind of works orientation in reverse. The more I avoid worldly (in our use of the term - which is why I asked about it a couple of posts above) things the more righteousness I emit.

At other times it is for them, the issue of the works that I do. I witness. I go to the corner to argue with Mormons. I contend for the faith as I know it to be. I defend the scriptures. I debate. I practice secondary separation. I not only don't drink alcohol, I don't go to restaurants that serve it. I don't just not go to movies, I don't associate with folks who do. I don't just dance, I don't go to a Halloween party if anyone there is square dancing. I don't just not smoke, I don't associate with people who do. I don't register for Little League if they have registration at a local theater where they show movie highlights of the previous world series. I don't cooperate with Evangelicals, who cooperate with United Methodists, who cooperate with Catholics, who cooperate with Mormons who have inter-faith efforts with Buddhists. And on and on. For the Fundamentalist, those kinds of things are the works that make someone orthodox, in addition to checking off all the right orthodox belief boxes.  Thanks and best wishes.

Edited January 26, 2022 by Navidad

[Navidad]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/sanctification?

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2001/06/justification-and-sanctification?lang=eng

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1981/10/sanctification-through-missionary-service?

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2001/01/sanctify-yourselves?

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/18-conversion?

https://abn.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2008/06/making-time-to-be-holy?

Perhaps it would have been more accurate if I had said "I have never heard the word sanctification used in our ward." I don't question that it is used in LDS writings.

[The Nehor]

13 minutes ago, Navidad said:

First of all Calm, I want to thank you for making a distinction between Fundamentalist and Evangelicals. Thank you.

Fundamentalists especially do not focus on grace alone. There is always another layer with them (in my opinion). Sometimes that layer focuses on what they don't do - don't play cards, don't dance, don't go to movies, don't smoke, drink, chew, or go with girls who do! That is a kind of works orientation in reverse. The more I avoid worldly (in our use of the term - which is why I asked about it a couple of posts above) things the more righteousness I emit.

At other times it is for them, the issue of the works that I do. I witness. I go to the corner to argue with Mormons. I contend for the faith as I know it to be. I defend the scriptures. I debate. I practice secondary separation. I not only don't drink alcohol, I don't go to restaurants that serve it. I don't just not go to movies, I don't associate with folks who do. I don't just dance, I don't go to a Halloween party if anyone there is square dancing. I don't just not smoke, I don't associate with people who do. I don't register for Little League if they have registration at a local theater where they show movie highlights of the previous world series. I don't cooperate with Evangelicals, who cooperate with United Methodists, who cooperate with Catholics, who cooperate with Mormons who have inter-faith efforts with Buddhists. And on and on. For the Fundamentalist, those kinds of things are the works that make someone orthodox, in addition to checking off all the right orthodox belief boxes.  Thanks and best wishes.

I always wondered what bothered me about this approach and I think that buried in it there is a lot of arrogance. Not so much in thinking you are avoiding contaminated ‘other people’ (though that exists) but the idea that they are pure and their primary objective in life is to avoid any kind of contamination. They have a set amount of purity given at birth or baptism or whatever and the main thing is to hoard it by not letting it get sullied. I would say the more correct approach is that we are a mess that need Christ to give us any purity at all.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

But will they retain a resurrected body?  Perdition by definition is a resurrection of no glory.
Perhaps their bodies will remain as they are now.

I think the scriptures say that they will not receive bodies of glory, but they will be resurrected because all men will be.  But to me that implies that we can't really view resurrection by itself as anything other than salvation from physical death.

Obviously (well, to me it seems obvious), people who inherit a kingdom of glory are recieve more than just salvation from physical death.  So there must be a salvation that is more than just resurrection but less than exaltation.

[JLHPROF]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think the scriptures say that they will not receive bodies of glory, but they will be resurrected because all men will be.  But to me that implies that we can't really view resurrection by itself as anything other than salvation from physical death.

Obviously (well, to me it seems obvious), people who inherit a kingdom of glory are recieve more than just salvation from physical death.  So there must be a salvation that is more than just resurrection but less than exaltation.

As I said, we like to use the term "salvation" for every possible level from redemption from the grave all the way up to exaltation.
It's very imprecise.

[bluebell]

13 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

As I said, we like to use the term "salvation" for every possible level from redemption from the grave all the way up to exaltation.
It's very imprecise.

I completely agree. 

I'm more pondering about the statement that you made where you said "Anyone in Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial will be saved/redeemed.  That is to say they will be resurrected through our Savior and saved from the grave.  As Christ said none will be lost."

It seems that those who receive a kingdom of Glory are being saved from more than just the grave.  

[JLHPROF]

3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I completely agree. 

I'm more pondering about the statement that you made where you said "Anyone in Telestial, Terrestrial, or Celestial will be saved/redeemed.  That is to say they will be resurrected through our Savior and saved from the grave.  As Christ said none will be lost."

It seems that those who receive a kingdom of Glory are being saved from more than just the grave.  

Well if the SoP resurrection from the grave is a temporary condition and they do suffer death again (dissolution of body/spirit) is that really the same as being saved from the grave?
There is some debate as to whether they will even retain their individuality after suffering the second death.

I kind of feel that if we aren't saved into an immortal resurrected state for eternity that's just as bad as not being resurrected at all.  After all, they are grouped with those that fell in pre-mortality and never received a body to begin with.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Well if the SoP resurrection from the grave is a temporary condition and they do suffer death again (dissolution of body/spirit) is that really the same as being saved from the grave?
There is some debate as to whether they will even retain their individuality after suffering the second death.

I kind of feel that if we aren't saved into an immortal resurrected state for eternity that's just as bad as not being resurrected at all.  After all, they are grouped with those that fell in pre-mortality and never received a body to begin with.

I've never heard any of this about them.  Can you share the references?

[mfbukowski]

23 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is very telling that Luther hated the Epistle of James. 

I was never aware of this, and if you have the time, I would love to hear more!

 

[JLHPROF]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I've never heard any of this about them.  Can you share the references?

Which parts?

they do suffer death again (dissolution of body/spirit) /  some debate as to whether they will receive this dissolution and lose individuality
- The Lord said to Jeremiah the Prophet, "Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hands of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." The clay that marred in the potter's hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion, to be prepared over again. So it will be with every wicked man and woman, and every wicked nation, kingdom, and government upon earth, sooner or later; they will be thrown back to the native element from which they originated, to be worked over again, and be prepared to enjoy some sort of a kingdom.
Brigham Young JD 2:124

- Some men enquire, “Why?” Simply because they have dishonored the spirit and bodies that God gave them; therefore God will make a desolation of those bodies and spirits, and he will throw them back into the earth; that is, that portion that belongs to the earth will go back there. And so it will be with our spirits: they will go back into the elements or space that they once occupied before they came here.  Heber C. Kimball JD 5:271
 
- Banishment from the presence of God. Banishment from the power of God. Banishment from the glory of God. Banishment from the joys of heaven. Banishment from all progress. Banishment into outer darkness. Banishment into hell, which is as a lake of fire and brimstone, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, because the soul lives and is bound to live on, suffering the damnation of hell. This is what I understand spiritual death is. I do not understand it to be the separation of the body and the spirit again. I do not understand it to be the dissolution of the spirit into its native element. - Joseph F. Smith  Collected Discourses: Delivered by Wilford Woodruff, his two counselors, the twelve apostles, and others, 1868–1898, 5 vols., (Woodland Hills, Utah: B.H.S. Publishing, 1987–1989), 4:227–228. [Discourse given on 20 January 1895.]

 they are grouped with those that fell in pre-mortality and never received a body to begin with

- D&C 76:35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

I was never aware of this, and if you have the time, I would love to hear more!

Yes, Mark.  Dr Taylor Marshall, former Anglican priest and now an active Roman Catholic scholar, discusses and quotes from Luther at https://taylormarshall.com/2006/02/chasing-down-luther-quotes-about-james.html  .

[bluebell]

57 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Which parts?

they do suffer death again (dissolution of body/spirit) /  some debate as to whether they will receive this dissolution and lose individuality
- The Lord said to Jeremiah the Prophet, "Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hands of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it." The clay that marred in the potter's hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion, to be prepared over again. So it will be with every wicked man and woman, and every wicked nation, kingdom, and government upon earth, sooner or later; they will be thrown back to the native element from which they originated, to be worked over again, and be prepared to enjoy some sort of a kingdom.
Brigham Young JD 2:124

- Some men enquire, “Why?” Simply because they have dishonored the spirit and bodies that God gave them; therefore God will make a desolation of those bodies and spirits, and he will throw them back into the earth; that is, that portion that belongs to the earth will go back there. And so it will be with our spirits: they will go back into the elements or space that they once occupied before they came here.  Heber C. Kimball JD 5:271
 
- Banishment from the presence of God. Banishment from the power of God. Banishment from the glory of God. Banishment from the joys of heaven. Banishment from all progress. Banishment into outer darkness. Banishment into hell, which is as a lake of fire and brimstone, where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, because the soul lives and is bound to live on, suffering the damnation of hell. This is what I understand spiritual death is. I do not understand it to be the separation of the body and the spirit again. I do not understand it to be the dissolution of the spirit into its native element. - Joseph F. Smith  Collected Discourses: Delivered by Wilford Woodruff, his two counselors, the twelve apostles, and others, 1868–1898, 5 vols., (Woodland Hills, Utah: B.H.S. Publishing, 1987–1989), 4:227–228. [Discourse given on 20 January 1895.]

 they are grouped with those that fell in pre-mortality and never received a body to begin with

- D&C 76:35 Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.
39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

 

Interesting stuff.  I found this link that has some good stuff in it as well.

It sounds like it's all speculation or extrapolation from other doctrine since nothing much has been revealed about them.  But what has been revealed seems incredibly horrible.

 

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, Mark.  Dr Taylor Marshall, former Anglican priest and now an active Roman Catholic scholar, discusses and quotes from Luther at https://taylormarshall.com/2006/02/chasing-down-luther-quotes-about-james.html  .

Thanks, Bob!

[JLHPROF]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Interesting stuff.  I found this link that has some good stuff in it as well.

It sounds like it's all speculation or extrapolation from other doctrine since nothing much has been revealed about them.  But what has been revealed seems incredibly horrible.

 

True.
I have no desire to understand it given the only way to understand it is to become one.

D&C 76:45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows;
46 Neither was it revealed, neither is, neither will be revealed unto man, except to them who are made partakers thereof;