Early Utah Pioneer and Church actions with Native Americans

[Tacenda]

5 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Every culture has it's good and bad things, and any show that only shows the good in a culture (especially if it's trying to make a contrasting culture look bad) is not a great movie to use to gain cultural knowledge from.

When Lewis and Clark stayed with the Mandans in what is now North Dakota, a common belief in that group was the women who slept with powerful men and then slept with their husbands could transfer that power to the men.  So, some native american men would send their wives out to sleep with white men so they (the men) could become more powerful.  The tribes portrayed in Dancing with Wolves had their own bad cultural traditions or beliefs as well.  That's how it goes.

I think there is always room to look to other cultures for better practices and ways of being in the world, but we have to be careful not to romanticize those cultures, including Native Americans, especially because that can make it easier for benevolent racism to sneak in.

 

https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/p/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples.htm

I think the Native Americans were more pure or organic to God's land and purpose. That's my opinion. I believe when Christopher Columbus entered America in 1492 they brought disease among other things. And the trouble began. I read not too long ago, that natives understood cleanliness much better than the Europeans. https://www.tri-citiesmuseum.org/active-history-bathing-and-washing

And the killing off of the Native Americans for their land. It's an open and shut case, IMO. There's honestly no way around it. 

 

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

https://www.cs.mcgill.ca/~rwest/wikispeedia/wpcd/wp/p/Population_history_of_American_indigenous_peoples.htm

I think the Native Americans were more pure or organic to God's land and purpose. That's my opinion. I believe when Christopher Columbus entered America in 1492 they brought disease among other things. And the trouble began. I read not too long ago, that natives understood cleanliness much better than the Europeans. https://www.tri-citiesmuseum.org/active-history-bathing-and-washing

And the killing off of the Native Americans for their land. It's an open and shut case, IMO. There's honestly no way around it. 

 

I think that many Native American tribes generally struggled less with greed than Europeans (though that's probably not true for tribes like the Aztecs and Incas).  I think they generally saw things differently and in some ways, much better.

But Native Americans killed other Native Americans for their land before Europeans arrived, and that is also an open and shut case.  There is nothing to be gained by pretending that none of that existed until white people showed up.

There are a lot of sins to lay at the feet of white people in regards to their treatment of native americans. But the native americans were not sinless before europeans got here.  If you truly value their culture and their history then you'll want to understand all of it, the good and the bad.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I believe when Christopher Columbus entered America in 1492 they brought disease among other things.

Ever heard of syphilis?

(There is some debate, but most evidence points towards it going to Europe on Columbus’ return.)

Or average life span?  Looks about the same as Europe. 

Quote

In the healthiest cultures in the 1,000 years before Columbus, a life span of no more than 35 years might be usual. In examining the skeletal evidence, paleopathologists rated the healthiest pre-Columbians to be people living 1,200 years ago on the coast of Brazil, where they had access to ample food from land and sea.

Quote

Iron deficiency anemia appears to have been widespread and ubiquitous in most ancient populations in the New World.8 

Quote

In general, early Native Americans appeared to sustain osteoarthritis at rates comparable with individuals today, although the earlier rate of onset and decreased life span of early Native Americans may have served to compress the observable cases into a shorter time frame within the life span. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071659/#__sec6title

Americans had their own issues or shared many with Europe before contact. 

[CA Steve]

Which was worse?

Lilburn Boggs extermination order directed against the Mormons in Missouri, or Brigham Young's extermination order directed against the Timpanogos in Utah?

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

think the Native Americans were more pure or organic to God's land and purpose.

https://www.science.org/content/article/feeding-gods-hundreds-skulls-reveal-massive-scale-human-sacrifice-aztec-capital

 

Quote

The priest quickly sliced into the captive's torso and removed his still-beating heart. That sacrifice, one among thousands performed in the sacred city of Tenochtitlan, would feed the gods and ensure the continued existence of the world.

Death, however, was just the start of the victim's role in the sacrificial ritual, key to the spiritual world of the Mexica people in the 14th to the 16th centuries.

Quote

The scale of the rack and tower suggests they held thousands of skulls, testimony to an industry of human sacrifice unlike any other in the world. Now, archaeologists are beginning to study the skulls in detail, hoping to learn more about Mexica rituals and the postmortem treatment of the bodies of the sacrificed. The researchers also wonder who the victims were, where they lived, and what their lives were like before they ended up marked for a brutal death at the Templo Mayor.

 

 

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Which was worse?

Lilburn Boggs extermination order directed against the Mormons in Missouri, or Brigham Young's extermination order directed against the Timpanogos in Utah?

Are you serious in the question, because if so what measure do you want to use, number of direct and indirect deaths or injuries, level of disruption of the community, rationale for destruction, something else?

My guess would be the Timpanogos in most measures, if not all. 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Calm

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Which was worse?

Lilburn Boggs extermination order directed against the Mormons in Missouri, or Brigham Young's extermination order directed against the Timpanogos in Utah?

Neither was great.  One spared women and children and the other didn't, so there is that small measurement of better I guess.

[ksfisher]

18 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Brigham Young's extermination order directed against the Timpanogos in Utah

Do you have a source for this?  I wasn't aware of any such order and a cursory internet search doesn't bring anything up.

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Do you have a source for this?  I wasn't aware of any such order and a cursory internet search doesn't bring anything up.

You can find a little about it in a wiki article.  It has one reference supporting the statement, from a book from 2008.  There is no way to know how accurate it is that I can see.  I can't find it on any other scholarly site.

[CA Steve]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are you serious in the question, because if so what measure do you want to use, number of direct and indirect deaths or injuries, level of disruption of the community, rationale for destruction, something else?

My guess would be the Timpanogos in most measures, if not all. 

Well sort of. Throughout my LDS life I cannot count the number of times I heard about the former while I can count on one hand the number of times I have heard the later mentioned. My point mostly was to bring up the fact that we make a big deal out of what Boggs did (rightly so) but at the same time never mention the fact we did much worse (in my opinion) to the indigenous native American populations that occupied the Great Basin when we took over in Utah.  There is much irony in the fact that we were driven out of Nauvoo only to turn around and do the same to the Utes, Timpanogos and other bands of Fish-Eaters in the Great Basin.

I recommend reading the first two chapters in Jared Farmer's On Zion’s Mount: Mormons, Indians, and the American Landscape  for a stark portrayal on how the Mormon pioneers drove the indigenous Indians out from their native lands, homes and fishing grounds in the Great Basin.

[bluebell]

9 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Well sort of. Throughout my LDS life I cannot count the number of times I heard about the former while I can count on one hand the number of times I have heard the later mentioned. My point mostly was to bring up the fact that we make a big deal out of what Boggs did (rightly so) but at the same time never mention the fact we did much worse (in my opinion) to the indigenous native American populations that occupied the Great Basin when we took over in Utah.  There is much irony in the fact that we were driven out of Nauvoo only to turn around and do the same to the Utes, Timpanogos and other bands of Fish-Eaters in the Great Basin.

I recommend reading the first two chapters in Jared Farmer's On Zion’s Mount: Mormons, Indians, and the American Landscape  for a stark portrayal on how the Mormon pioneers drove the indigenous Indians out from their native lands, homes and fishing grounds in the Great Basin.

Can you elaborate on the bolded?  Why in your opinion the extermination order by BY much worse than Boggs?

[Tacenda]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can you elaborate on the bolded?  Why in your opinion the extermination order by BY much worse than Boggs?

The order was rescinded. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Extermination_Order

Edited November 29, 2021 by Tacenda

[ksfisher]

21 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Well sort of. Throughout my LDS life I cannot count the number of times I heard about the former while I can count on one hand the number of times I have heard the later mentioned. My point mostly was to bring up the fact that we make a big deal out of what Boggs did (rightly so) but at the same time never mention the fact we did much worse (in my opinion) to the indigenous native American populations that occupied the Great Basin when we took over in Utah.  There is much irony in the fact that we were driven out of Nauvoo only to turn around and do the same to the Utes, Timpanogos and other bands of Fish-Eaters in the Great Basin.

I recommend reading the first two chapters in Jared Farmer's On Zion’s Mount: Mormons, Indians, and the American Landscape  for a stark portrayal on how the Mormon pioneers drove the indigenous Indians out from their native lands, homes and fishing grounds in the Great Basin.

It seems like when hunter gatherer communities come in contact with agrarian communities the hunter gatherers consistently end up with the short end of the stick. 

Earlier you attributed an extermination order to Brigham Young.  Was there an actual order or are you saying that that is what pretty much ended up happening.

[Tacenda]

25 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can you elaborate on the bolded?  Why in your opinion the extermination order by BY much worse than Boggs?

I can give one...because BY's orders were carried out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_at_Fort_Utah

Edited November 29, 2021 by Tacenda

[CA Steve]

1 minute ago, ksfisher said:

It seems like when hunter gatherer communities come in contact with agrarian communities the hunter gatherers consistently end up with the short end of the stick. 

Earlier you attributed an extermination order to Brigham Young.  Was there an actual order or are you saying that that is what pretty much ended up happening.

There was an actual order from BY. From the Jared Farmer book I referenced above.

Quote

The order called for the extermination of "all hostile Indians" and any others who "do not separate themselves from their hostile clan, and sue for peace." The soldiers had instructions to spare women and children except when "demanded by attendant circumstances." pg 71-72

I grew up in a church that lauded its ancestor pioneers for the hardships they endured (rightly so) and for settling the Great Basin and making the desert bloom. They didn't settle it so much as they conquered it and it wasn't desert. There was a lot of water there. They were just really good at irrigation, irrigation which destroyed the native American fisheries on which they depended to live.

[Calm]

 

24 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The order was rescinded. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Extermination_Order

1976, Tacenda!  A little late, don’t you think?

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

1976, Tacenda!  A little late, don’t you think?

Ha! I guess so!

[Calm]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I can give one...because BY's orders were carried out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_at_Fort_Utah

And Saints got to hang out peacefully in Missouri because everyone just ignored Boggs, right?

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

And Saints got to hang out peacefully in Missouri because everyone just ignored Boggs, right?

No, they didn't at all, and three days later 17 were murdered. My comment should have included it. I'm sorry. 

[bluebell]

33 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The order was rescinded. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormon_Extermination_Order

And you believe the one from BY was meant to last forever?  From the little I've read on it, it was only meant to last during the war with that tribe (which I think only lasted a few months?  Not sure on that though).

 

[bluebell]

23 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I can give one...because BY's orders were carried out. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_at_Fort_Utah

And Bogg's wouldn't have been?

[ksfisher]

16 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

There was an actual order from BY. From the Jared Farmer book I referenced above.

I grew up in a church that lauded its ancestor pioneers for the hardships they endured (rightly so) and for settling the Great Basin and making the desert bloom. They didn't settle it so much as they conquered it and it wasn't desert. There was a lot of water there. They were just really good at irrigation, irrigation which destroyed the native American fisheries on which they depended to live.

Like I was saying, I wasn't aware of any order.  I would like to see what Farmer's source was.

I don't think we've come close to making the desert bloom.  Current land use policies are not sustainable, as anyone who's looked at the Great Salt Lake recently can see.  Hopefully we can find a way to reverse the current environmental destruction and find a more balanced and less environmentally degrading approach to land use. 

 

[BRMC]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

No, you're not going to convince me that my emotions come only from Hollywood, I've read Native American's stories of life after the white man ripped their lands and families from them. 

Have you read about how the Chippewa ripped the lands of the Sioux from them, enslaving some?   Have you read how the displaced Sioux massacred the Omaha and Pawnee to take their lands?

[bluebell]

4 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Like I was saying, I wasn't aware of any order.  I would like to see what Farmer's source was.

I don't think we've come close to making the desert bloom.  Current land use policies are not sustainable, as anyone who's looked at the Great Salt Lake recently can see.  Hopefully we can find a way to reverse the current environmental destruction and find a more balanced and less environmentally degrading approach to land use. 

 

It seems like re-directing the water going into Willard Bay (which seems to exist solely for the purposes of recreation?) would go a long way towards revitalizing the GSL.  Drinking and irrigation water is one thing.  Syphoning water from the lake so people can go boating is something totally different.

[ksfisher]

35 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It seems like re-directing the water going into Willard Bay (which seems to exist solely for the purposes of recreation?) would go a long way towards revitalizing the GSL.  Drinking and irrigation water is one thing.  Syphoning water from the lake so people can go boating is something totally different.

Things like that are a start.  The drying out of the lake is an environmental disaster and will potentially impact the health of anyone who breathes the arsenic heavy dust that is being uncovered.  Definitely no deserts blossoming as a rose going on here.

 

I'm straying from the OP.

Edited November 29, 2021 by ksfisher