Saints Unscripted - Bible Genres and Historicity

[Olmec Donald]

12 hours ago, Islander said:

We can draw counsel, wisdom, comfort and encouragement as we look through the lens of scripture. but they are NOT open to interpretation.

With that as the introduction...

12 hours ago, Islander said:

 "...liken all scriptures unto us"  means, place yourself there in the setting where the passage took place.

... how is this not YOUR interpretation?

How do you know that phrase could not mean "read the scriptures as if they are written to you?" 

Are the scriptures only understandable by those who know "the setting where the passage took place"?  And is that always knowable?

Once upon a time a boy who had no access to scholarly scripture study tools, who knew not the setting where the passage took place, read a verse of scripture as if it was written to him:

"I was one day reading the Epistle of James, First Chapter and fifth verse which reads, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him.”  Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man that this did at this time to mine.  It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart.  I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did..."

So, did he "understand the actual meaning of the passage", or not?

11 hours ago, Islander said:

There are no new truths revealed out of the NT.

I'm not sure what you mean by that, and don't want to jump to conclusions.   Could you clarify?

Edited December 3, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[Calm]

9 hours ago, Islander said:

There are a myriad of tools available for the study of scripture. There are several modern translations of the bible in several languages and historical texts that help us shed light into the context of the scriptures. There are interlinear dictionaries that translate word for word from Hebrew or Greek the complete bible. The bible is the most scrutinized text in history. All it takes is time. There are no new truths revealed out of the NT.

It would seem that you see understanding the scriptures as intended by God as something that can only occur for a few elite scholars, inaccessible to the vast majority of those who have lived on earth even if they owned a Bible. 

[Stargazer]

On 11/27/2021 at 6:58 PM, mfbukowski said:

It's like worrying about who Shakespeare "really was" while ignoring the beauty and wisdom of the content of the works we have before us, or judging Mozart's music based on his personal life.

I don't remember where I read this, but it was probably in a science-fiction story: There was once this professor who spent his entire life trying to prove that the Iliad and the Odyssey were not written by Homer, but by another Greek of the same name.

[Islander]

14 hours ago, Olmec Donald said:

With that as the introduction...

... how is this not YOUR interpretation?

How do you know that phrase could not mean "read the scriptures as if they are written to you?" 

Are the scriptures only understandable by those who know "the setting where the passage took place"?  And is that always knowable?

Once upon a time a boy who had no access to scholarly scripture study tools, who knew not the setting where the passage took place, read a verse of scripture as if it was written to him:

"I was one day reading the Epistle of James, First Chapter and fifth verse which reads, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him.”  Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man that this did at this time to mine.  It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart.  I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did..."

So, did he "understand the actual meaning of the passage", or not?

I'm not sure what you mean by that, and don't want to jump to conclusions.   Could you clarify?

Well, friend, that is why STUDY is so critical. If the scriptures mean something to you and something different to me they mean nothing at all. You have to study, look at different translations, commentary, history, etc. Like I said, the critical elements for salvation are transparent. The rest requires some effort. That is what Nephi said in 2 Ne 25 concerning the words of Isaiah. You MUST "study the things of the Jews" in oredr to understand his words.

 

[Islander]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

It would seem that you see understanding the scriptures as intended by God as something that can only occur for a few elite scholars, inaccessible to the vast majority of those who have lived on earth even if they owned a Bible. 

Not really. I am not a "scholar" but I have studied the scriptures for 3 decades consistently. Again, I set 2 Ne 25 as an example. Isaiah is tough. Why? Because we need to "study the things of the Jews". He did not say "go read and interpret it however it comes to your mind." I said it elsewhere, the critical elements for salvation are transparent. The rest takes some work, if you want to dive deep into God's word.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Islander said:

am not a "scholar" but I have studied the scriptures for 3 decades consistently.

Did you just study the scriptures themselves or did you shave access to additional texts and leisure time to study both them and the scriptures?  If so, if your knowledge did not come by having a Bible in one hand and a French Fry basket in the other, can you tell me how many humans over the centuries have had access to the resources and the leisure to study that you have had?  Do you live below poverty level?  Do you have little to no access to libraries with needed texts or hours available weekly at least to find resources on line?  Have you had to move frequently to take advantage of any opportunity that comes along to provide for family?  Are you a single parent?  Do you have reading disabilities?

Can you not see by demanding a level and quality of education unavailable to many over the millennium, you have turned seeking the word of God into a pastime of the mostly modern elite.

[Olmec Donald]

5 hours ago, Islander said:

Like I said, the critical elements for salvation are transparent. The rest requires some effort. That is what Nephi said in 2 Ne 25 concerning the words of Isaiah. You MUST "study the things of the Jews" in oredr to understand his words.

I get it, you see value in studying context, as that adds greatly to what you get out of the scriptures, or a least some of them.  I have no problem with that and I've done it too at times. 

5 hours ago, Islander said:

If the scriptures mean something to you and something different to me they mean nothing at all.

No, the scriptures are not that fragile.  Nor is the Holy Spirit so rigidly constrained in what He may communicate to someone through the scriptures that study aids (and those with access to them) become the gatekeepers.

5 hours ago, Islander said:

The rest takes some work, if you want to dive deep into God's word.

So once again let me ask you to comment on James 1:5:  What does your "deep dive" via your study aids reveal that young Joseph Smith missed? 

 

Edited December 4, 2021 by Olmec Donald

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Islander said:

He did not say "go read and interpret it however it comes to your mind." I said it elsewhere, the critical elements for salvation are transparent. The rest takes some work, if you want to dive deep into God's word.

Actually, he kind of did.

Quote

 As Nephi says, the words of Isaiah “are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy” (2 Ne. 25:4)

Again, from President Oaks talk:

Quote

 

...,in answer to his brothers’ questions about the meaning of Isaiah’s words in the brass plates, Nephi explained that these words spoke of “things both temporal and spiritual” (1 Ne. 22:3).

The book of Isaiah contains numerous prophecies that seem to have multiple fulfillments. One seems to involve the people of Isaiah’s day or the circumstances of the next generation. Another meaning, often symbolic, seems to refer to events in the meridian of time, when Jerusalem was destroyed and her people scattered after the crucifixion of the Son of God. Still another meaning or fulfillment of the same prophecy seems to relate to the events attending the Second Coming of the Savior. The fact that many of these prophecies can have multiple meanings underscores the importance of our seeking revelation from the Holy Ghost to help us interpret them. As Nephi says, the words of Isaiah “are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy” (2 Ne. 25:4)

...Latter-day Saints know that true doctrine comes by revelation from God, not by scholarship or worldly wisdom (see Moses 5:58). Similarly, the Apostle Paul wrote that we are not “sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God” (2 Cor. 3:5). Rather than trusting in our own interpretations of written texts, we rely on God and the glorious “ministration of the spirit” (2 Cor. 3:8). Here we encounter a new meaning of Paul’s familiar teaching that true believers are “ministers … of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life” (2 Cor. 3:6).

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1995/01/scripture-reading-and-revelation?lang=eng

 

If you want to understand the exact and singular context of the revelation and the intended purpose at the time it was given, I agree that scholarship is helpful.  However, if you are open to the possibility of the timeless complexity of revelation, new windows and layers of understanding might be opened up to you that you may have otherwise missed by insisting on only one possible meaning under a singular and specific context and time.  

[Islander]

On 12/3/2021 at 1:35 PM, Calm said:

Did you just study the scriptures themselves or did you shave access to additional texts and leisure time to study both them and the scriptures?  If so, if your knowledge did not come by having a Bible in one hand and a French Fry basket in the other, can you tell me how many humans over the centuries have had access to the resources and the leisure to study that you have had?  Do you live below poverty level?  Do you have little to no access to libraries with needed texts or hours available weekly at least to find resources on line?  Have you had to move frequently to take advantage of any opportunity that comes along to provide for family?  Are you a single parent?  Do you have reading disabilities?

Can you not see by demanding a level and quality of education unavailable to many over the millennium, you have turned seeking the word of God into a pastime of the mostly modern elite.

Well, my story is slightly more complicated than that. I am an immigrant to the US. I came to this country only with the clothing in my back. I had no family or friends here. I worked 2 jobs for 6 years in order to make some headway. I got married and put myself through graduate school while raising a family of six. There is nothing special about my story. Millions have gone through the same predicament. But, I made the time, every day to study the scriptures. I felt driven, compelled to search and to inquire. For me it is an imperative and a quest. Everything else, every other concern, pursue and enterprise on the face of the earth is mundane and rather worthless. So, I don't care about golf, football or any other kind of popular, collective idolatry, like many, even in the church. My life is simple; work, family, service and reading. That is what I have done for 30 years. But, we have seriously digressed from the topic at hand. I tried to make a simpe point; those that truly desire to know the Lord and His word will find a way and pursue such knowledge regardless of personal circumstance. No need to be in a year. Like the prophet said: "...line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little..."

[Islander]

On 12/2/2021 at 10:19 PM, Olmec Donald said:

With that as the introduction...

... how is this not YOUR interpretation?

How do you know that phrase could not mean "read the scriptures as if they are written to you?" 

Are the scriptures only understandable by those who know "the setting where the passage took place"?  And is that always knowable?

Once upon a time a boy who had no access to scholarly scripture study tools, who knew not the setting where the passage took place, read a verse of scripture as if it was written to him:

"I was one day reading the Epistle of James, First Chapter and fifth verse which reads, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him.”  Never did any passage of scripture come with more power to the heart of man that this did at this time to mine.  It seemed to enter with great force into every feeling of my heart.  I reflected on it again and again, knowing that if any person needed wisdom from God, I did..."

So, did he "understand the actual meaning of the passage", or not?

I'm not sure what you mean by that, and don't want to jump to conclusions.   Could you clarify?

I have tried to explain this elsewhere in the forum before. This is rather a recurrent theme. As an illustration, let's say that when we look at sothing, you see "red" and I see "yellow" and someone else see "purple". Soon, it no longer matters what color it is and there is no longer any certainty as to what the actual truth is. The word of God as revealed to the writers of scripture was given to a specific people, at a specific time and for a specific purpose. It is certainly for our benefit, instruction, guidance, correction and counsel but it was NOT given to us. That is the reason why there are thousands of denominations. Everybody interprets the scripture however they want and feel, some to very scary extremes. We can't "spiritualize" scripture to mean whatever we want, think or feel it means. We can draw principles from it and apply it to our particular life circumstances which is different from interpretation. In Mosiah 12, the priests of Noah quiz Abinadi about the words of Isaiah. The prophets rips them to shreds and tells them that they do not know the scriptures, in so many words, he tells them that they either have not read them or if they have, they DO NOT UNDERSTAND them. 

Israel of old did precisely that. They created a mountain of tradition to get around the actual meaning of the law of God. The rabbinic traditions were nothing but an attempt to reinterpret God's law so they could "appear righteous" outwardly. The Savior brings all that pretentious self righteousness crashing down when He said "you have heard...(traditions, misinterpretations, errors)...".but I say" and there comes the truth, the REAL meaning of the teaching and the principle built into the word of God as He intended. The admonition about adultery in the Ten Commandments, in the Hebrew reates to wrongful desires or appetites. Therefore when the Savior arrives in the scene, He brings the TRUE meaning and interpretation of the commandment to bear. Looking at a woman's body, ever so briefly, is to lust after her and thus committing adultery in our "heart" (mind).

Most times the scriptures are quite literal and its meaning plain and transparent. At others, it is symbolic, prophetic allegoric, etc. Writers use a variety of literary devices to communicate with the intended audience of their time. The Lord sent prophets to Israel, and to His chosen people. Not to China or Babylon. Now, they could have benefited from the word of God, and at times they did (like Nineveh). but His "target audience" was Israel.

In sum, this is why we have "instruction manuals" to teach every class in the church. So that teachers can bring a very specific message and meaning to the students. Again, interpretation (the actual meaning, significance, principle and precept) is different from application which relates to: "how am I going to cope with the issue facing me based on what God has ALREADY spoken? What do I know about His character and attributes as well as what He has commanded us to do ALWAYS? Our faith and trust in Him is based on what He has revealed about Himself in the pages of scripture and through the voice of His prophets. So His message is not subject to time and age, feelings or individual understanding. It is timeless and precise. 

 

[Bob Crockett]

On 12/3/2021 at 1:35 PM, Calm said:

Can you not see by demanding a level and quality of education unavailable to many over the millennium, you have turned seeking the word of God into a pastime of the mostly modern elite.

As Elder Oaks said in 1995:  "Latter-day Saints know that true doctrine comes by revelation from God, not by scholarship or worldly wisdom (see Moses 5:58)."  See https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1995/01/scripture-reading-and-revelation?lang=eng.

This sermon addresses the role of scripture for the Latter-day Saints.  Scripture does not necessarily describe history, nor may its meaning necessarily be derived from exegesism.