Raise Up Seed Unto Me

[Calm]

21 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Yes. Polygyny glorifies the man. No argument here on that point. Even though it is at the cost of the female’s reproductive fitness. In a strict patriarchy, polygyny is the way to go. 

And the physical benefit of having to bear less children…thinking that may be outweighed by splitting of resources unless husband is wealthy….and desire to have children to merit husband’s attention, have more power/status than other wives in typical polygyny.

Daynes’ study showed an economic benefit to immigrant women as plural marriage allowed sharing of a wealthier man’s resources with more women (though in a Zion society I am thinking marriage wouldn’t be needed for men of wealth to help those in need not be in need and even flourish).

Watching Chinese historical drama, it is all about status for a polygynous wife and her family, the adults in the family focus their attention on one son as the future potential family leader to the neglect of others.  Numbers matter, but not as individuals.  Only one son’s personal growth for each wife is obsessed about.  The other sons are expected to serve and sacrifice for that brother, even if older…though usually the eldest, so the one gets chosen to lead the family by the father or other head family members if father is dead.  Very different view of polygyny.  A few dramas I saw set no more than 40 years ago are pro polygyny IMO as it  has them just assuming it is natural a wealthy man has more than one wife with them all living together as successfully as any big family, including the main wife taking a lesser wife’s son as her own if lacking.  It was portrayed as great for that son to have two mothers concerned for him.  I don’t know if typical, but they looked main stream.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Calm

[katherine the great]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

Daynes’ study showed an economic benefit to immigrant women as plural marriage allowed sharing of a wealthier man’s resources with more women (though in a Zion society I am thinking marriage wouldn’t be needed for men of wealth to help those in need not be in need and even flourish).

This. Polygyny can be predicted in a society where few men dominate most of the resources. Not exactly a celestial environment. 🙂

[katherine the great]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

Numbers matter, but not as individuals.  Only one son’s personal growth for each wife is obsessed about.  The other sons are expected to serve and sacrifice for that brother, even if older…though usually the eldest, so the one gets chosen to lead the family by the father or other head family members if father is dead.  Very different view of polygyny

This could fall under “inclusive fitness”.  Investing in one’s biological nephews/nieces (rather than direct descendants) still benefits one’s fitness although less fully and in an indirect manner. It is considered a valid reproductive strategy. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 11/22/2021 at 5:38 PM, katherine the great said:

This. Polygyny can be predicted in a society where few men dominate most of the resources. Not exactly a celestial environment. 🙂

North Korea?

[katherine the great]

55 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

North Korea?

I doubt polygamy is legal in North Korea but I would bet that their powerful men have many mistresses. 

[Calm]

58 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

I doubt polygamy is legal in North Korea but I would bet that their powerful men have many mistresses. 

Unless their dramas are way off, my guess is fidelity to one woman by a man may be viewed as the minority position in East Asia.  Monogamy is viewed as an import from Europe if I am reading the right articles.  Have you come across this?  Anyone else with experience in East Asia?  Is monogamy viewed as the default and morally superior marriage relationship or something else?

Humm…the ”second wife” thing I keep seeing in the dramas is actually a bit of an innovation in Korea:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2018/09/165_79616.html

Edited November 24, 2021 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

On 11/15/2021 at 4:02 PM, rongo said:

It's amazing to me how, even today, with a lot of first and second generation members, Mormon polygamy is still in people's backgrounds when they research it

I was amazed to find, forty years ago, when I met my wife's grandmother, that she was the daughter of a mainstream Church of JC, LDS polygamist.

I was conversing with Church history.

[mfbukowski]

On 11/15/2021 at 7:10 PM, Teancum said:

And I can think you foolish for believing such and abominable practice was really from a God being. 

Abraham, Issac, Jacob?

Scripture tells us they ARE NOW gods. So much for your moral absolutism.

Where is your empirical evidence for ANYTHING being  "abominable"?

You have no case for such an opinion, while preaching  logical positivism 

Edited November 24, 2021 by mfbukowski

[katherine the great]

44 minutes ago, Calm said:

Unless their dramas are way off, my guess is fidelity to one woman by a man may be viewed as the minority position in East Asia.  Monogamy is viewed as an import from Europe if I am reading the right articles.  Have you come across this?  Anyone else with experience in East Asia?  Is monogamy viewed as the default and morally superior marriage relationship or something else?

Humm…the ”second wife” thing I keep seeing in the dramas is actually a bit of an innovation in Korea:

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2018/09/165_79616.html

I served my mission in Korea and I’ve never heard of this second wife thing. It’s interesting because this custom the author talks about in this article is clearly something that happened under the Japanese occupation and annexation of country. And yet nothing about that is mentioned. So I can’t help but think this was Japanese influence on Korean culture.

[Calm]

46 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

I served my mission in Korea and I’ve never heard of this second wife thing. It’s interesting because this custom the author talks about in this article is clearly something that happened under the Japanese occupation and annexation of country. And yet nothing about that is mentioned. So I can’t help but think this was Japanese influence on Korean culture.

So I am guessing it was used in the dramas I saw as they need conflict kind of like how you never see stuff in real life that happens way too often in soap operas, like evil twins.  Or I misunderstood what was going on, lol. 
 

Your opinion…do you think monogamy was idealized there as much as in the US?  You being in a religious environment so to speak might have slanted your exposure to more open attitudes about unofficial polygyny, I am thinking, but could have been consistent too. 
 

Did you see issues for kids not on family registries?  
 

https://www.international-divorce.com/family-registration-law-korea.htm

Way off topic…ignore if you want.  

Edited November 24, 2021 by Calm

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

So I am guessing it was used in the dramas I saw as they need conflict

I’m not sure how they presented marriages in the drama that you saw. It’s true that being on a mission, I wasn’t focused on marital behavior but just being around the culture day in and day out I knew something about their courting and marital customs. There was still an enormous pressure for people to marry within their own class and sometimes marriages were still even arranged by the parents- especially in the upper class. I also know that polygamy existed in all of these far east Asian cultures until the 20th century (or slightly earlier in some cases). In those situations only the first wife usually had any true status. I think the Joy Luck Club illustrated that truth very poignantly.

There’s one thing I remember very clearly and that is that I would never ever have considered marrying an Asian man (unless he was an Asian American). I found so much beauty in the Korean culture but the men’s attitude towards women was just so antiquated that I knew I could never even consider it. Now I’m going to take a peek at those links you posted.

[katherine the great]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Did you see issues for kids not on family registries?

Oh yes! Being considered “illegitimate” was a huge disadvantage in Korean culture. Still, there were manual labor jobs for people of that class and most young men were recruited into the military for a time and so they had that as an option for a career. As for women, they could marry up somewhat but it didn’t happen very often unless they were extremely beautiful.

[Tacenda]

7 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

Oh yes! Being considered “illegitimate” was a huge disadvantage in Korean culture. Still, there were manual labor jobs for people of that class and most young men were recruited into the military for a time and so they had that as an option for a career. As for women, they could marry up somewhat but it didn’t happen very often unless they were extremely beautiful.

I recently read on another board the difficulty LDS Koreans are having there with having our LDS standards. According to the poster they said that most Koreans smoke/drink and have premarital sex. And they get offended if you're offered a drink but don't take it. So there are problems finding a mate with the same standards etc. Did you find this to be the case as well?

[katherine the great]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I recently read on another board the difficulty LDS Koreans are having there with having our LDS standards. According to the poster they said that most Koreans smoke/drink and have premarital sex. And they get offended if you're offered a drink but don't take it. So there are problems finding a mate with the same standards etc. Did you find this to be the case as well?

Smoking was definitely a problem for the men but women didn’t smoke at all when I was there. I never saw one woman smoking except for a couple of old ladies smoking pipes. As far as premarital sex, it certainly wasn’t as prevalent as it is in America. So I’m not sure why that would be a problem. It’s just some thing you give up if you decide to get baptized. 🤷‍♀️

[Bernard Gui]

23 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I doubt polygamy is legal in North Korea but I would bet that their powerful men have many mistresses. 

Cuba?

[katherine the great]

1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Cuba?

What about it?

[Bernard Gui]

On 11/25/2021 at 3:53 PM, katherine the great said:

What about it?

Does it fit your paradigm? I’m wondering which countries have the conditions that are right for powerful men to instigate polygamy.

Edited November 30, 2021 by Bernard Gui

[katherine the great]

19 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Does it fit your paradigm? I’m wondering which countries have the conditions that are right for powerful men to instigate polygamy.

It’s not my paradigm. It is a conclusion based on cross cultural ethnographic studies throughout time. Women prefer monogamy as a rule. The exception is when most of the resources are controlled by a small number of men. In that environment we see women prefer to be a second wife to a wealthy man to being the only wife of a poor one. (in a nutshell). It also presupposes the women are free to make that choice. You can figure out whether Cuba fits that description. I’m not an expert on Cuba. 

Edited December 1, 2021 by katherine the great