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Stake and ward boundaries?


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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

  So back to my point, what if we had a bishop that could bring in 600/700 people verse three bishops that bring in 150 each?

Mate, you're an elder in the Church, right? That means you're as much clergy as any bishop. What are you doing right now to bring 600-700 people to church?

Are all of the people you minister to 100 per cent active?

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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38 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

By law, they are then required to do one of three things: go to work, begin a formal apprenticeship, or continue their education at a senior secondary college.

Are they seriously not legally allowed to just stay home and live off of mom and dad?

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21 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Mate, you're an elder in the Church, right? That means you're as much clergy as any bishop. What are you doing right now to bring 600-700 people to church?

Are all of the people you minister to 100 per cent active?

Private message me and I'll give you my stake presidents name. If you can convince him to make me bishop and give me freedom to do whatever I want to get people to walk through the doors, I'll have that many people in there. They might not all be dressed in their Sunday best, they might smell like they haven't bathed in 7 days, or they might even take smoke breaks on the front lawn, but I can get them in there. Should I serve hot dogs and hamburgers, or do you think a fish fry would bring more people in? I went to a fish fry at a Catholic church it was awesome. 

   Just kidding man, relax, you and I both know what I suggested is never going to happen. Hell would freeze over first. 

    

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Just now, Calm said:

Are they seriously not legally allowed to just stay home and live off of mom and dad?

Correct. They can't 'legally' do that until they are 18. :P

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1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Correct. They can't 'legally' do that until they are 18. :P

I thought it was an adult thing...having to be responsible . Turns out it was a kid thing.  :)

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Private message me and I'll give you my stake presidents name. If you can convince him to make me bishop and give me freedom to do whatever I want to get people to walk through the doors, I'll have that many people in there.

Nice deflection, mate, but you and I both know that you don't need anyone's permission to walk into the chapel this Sunday with the crowd you're promising. Will your ministering families be there with you at least?

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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13 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Nice deflection, mate, but you and I both know that you don't need anyone's permission to walk into the chapel this Sunday with the crowd you're promising. Will your ministering families be there with you at least?

Obviously you have forgotten some of my past post because I have to 😂. But I've said on here before, if it was up to me I would have our Ward meet at the local high school football field once a month and have  the youth stand beside the road and intersections with signs inviting people to come join us. I would have food and invite local bands. 

   If we want to drop the name Mormon and be seen as christians, let's start doing what they do. 

    Let me ask you this since you think I'm deflecting and somehow you think I'm just as much clergy as the bishop. Can I go to the bishop and say, hey bishop, I have a very strong feeling that if put the youth on the street around the church holding signs that invite people in, we will get a lot of butts in the pews. So next Sunday I'm hiring a band to play during sacrament and afterwards we're serving food and drinks from the kitchen. I'll need the church open at 6 am to start preparing. How to you think that will go over? You and I both know that ainttt happenen.  

Basically what I'm saying is I think bishops should be given more freedom to do what they think will work best for the community they are dealing with. Including trying certain activities you would never think would be found in a Mormon church. For Christ sake, a couple years ago our bishop wouldn't allow a small family band have their teenager play the saxophone in the chapel because he thought it wasn't reverent. He allowed the piano player, the flute and the violin but the saxophone kid had to sit with his parents in the pews and cry while his siblings played for everyone. If a kid can't play a saxophone because it's not "reverent enough" I can guarantee my ideas are dead on arrival.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Basically what I'm saying is I think bishops should be given more freedom to do what they think will work best for the community they are dealing with.

And as an elder, you have exactly the freedom that you are dreaming about. No doubt, you and your family are diligently conducting home-based church activities every single week, such as studying Come, Follow Me together in engaging and dynamic ways and holding exciting family home evenings. I'm equally certain that you are inviting your assigned ministering families into your social and spiritual lives so that they benefit from your family's strengths as well.

So put your daughters on the street near your home holding signs that invite people in to join you. Get a band or two. Serve food. Preach and teach to your heart's delight. Let us know how you go. I genuinely hope you succeed!

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2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

And as an elder, you have exactly the freedom that you are dreaming about. No doubt, you and your family are diligently conducting home-based church activities every single week, such as studying Come, Follow Me together in engaging and dynamic ways and holding exciting family home evenings. I'm equally certain that you are inviting your assigned ministering families into your social and spiritual lives so that they benefit from your family's strengths as well.

So put your daughters on the street near your home holding signs that invite people in to join you. Get a band or two. Serve food. Preach and teach to your heart's delight. Let us know how you go. I genuinely hope you succeed!

Reading 100s of your post I thought you would think outside the box a little more than what you're leading me to believe. Would the local leaders do anything I suggested, of course not, you and I both know that. But what I'm suggesting isn't that much different than what I remember when I was young back in the early 80s. Maybe the sign holding, I don't think that has ever happened, but I remember ladies in the church kitchen cooking and I remember carrying dishes to the cultural Hall, don't know why, but I do remember it was on Sunday because I had my dress clothes on. Also in the late 80s I remember neighborhood kids coming in for basketball and volleyball, that doesn't happen anymore in my area. Early 90s we would do joint scout activities with other scout troops like flag football, not anymore. 

  It feels to me like the church is possibly shrinking, everything is getting shorter timewise, scouts is gone. You do realize the church is changing but it has a lot to do with outside pressure right? 

Im telling you, if something doesn't change to bring a different  atmosphere to church meetings I fear there won't be any youth left in 30 or so years. 

   You know, I like what you wrote above, its a real eye opener for me, especially when you say preach and teach to your heart's delight, because I've often thought about that in the past few months, why do I need the church to teach and preach? I love the church, but I'll admit, I'm hanging on by a thread, and post like yours help me a lot in realizing there's no open minds out there willing to even consider anything out of a strictly guarded comfort zone that most members live in. You help me realize I'm possibly trapped and my forward momentum might be slowing down spiritually. Thanks, your a great missionary, I have a lot to think about, maybe I'll start a podcast! 

  

 

 

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11 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Would the local leaders do anything I suggested ...?

No clue. Our chapel is full of friends and neighbours playing basketball and volleyball on both Friday evenings and again on Saturdays, most of them non-members. Pre-pandemic, our ward had food after services every second Sunday. Etc. So I'm not really with you here.

But the $20,000 question is not really whether your local leaders would do anything you suggested; it's whether YOU will do anything you've suggested.

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... maybe I'll start a podcast! 

And apparently the answer is no, you won't. Instead, you'll just seek to increase the size of the audience you whinge to ...

Tragically, you're all talk, mate.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

, you're all talk, mate

Is that a bad thing on a discussion board?😂

 You know, I've never really understood the guy who runs Mormon Stories, Mr. Dehlin, his motivation to bring down the church is really strong, at least it comes across that way when I'm listening to his podcast. I always find myself thinking, who inside the church hurt this guy, who lit a fire under him,  to get up everyday and rail against an organization most of his family and friends are in? But then every once in a while I'll have a conversation with someone and think, dang, that's where the motivation comes from! Like I said, your an awesome missionary. 

   Here's what I'll tell you about where I live. 7 days a week I can ride past christian churches and more than half will have large signs, sometimes 2 or 3 at the road saying something like, WORSHIP! Services at 8:30, 10:00 and 11:30, and on Sunday they'll have a few people out front waving at people as they pass in their car. Another christian church is growing so fast in my area they now rent the gymnasium at a local high school because they're growing so fast and the church they're building isn't finished yet. On Sunday the deacons of their church pull up in trucks with trailers full of chairs, sound equipment and banners the put signs out at the street welcoming people who pass by to come in. An hour ago I passed a church already preparing for Sunday by setting up a 50x100 foot open sided tent for this Sunday, they didn't have any signs out yet, but that usually means a Sunday evening cook out. 

   I'm telling ya, if we don't get with the program and realize what's going on, we might be a wealthy church in years to come, but once we lose one or two generations of youth, well, it won't be good. I can't remember, could you help me out, is our mission to collect dollar bills or is it to collect souls to bring unto Christ?  My message is about looking to the future, yours seems like holding on to the past, good luck sir.

 

 

 

Edited by AtlanticMike
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49 minutes ago, Calm said:

Your idea on what is going to sell ‘Church’ to youth doesn’t match up with reality

Yes, my eyes are deceiving me. Articles online don't change what I see or feel. 

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13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Mate, you're an elder in the Church, right? That means you're as much clergy as any bishop. What are you doing right now to bring 600-700 people to church?

 

I understand and totally agree with you here.

13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Are all of the people you minister to 100 per cent active?

I do think we need to be careful with this.  It's a 2 way street.  There is much we can and should do to help others, but we also need to recognize that they have their agency. 

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13 minutes ago, Calm said:

Christ provided food and probably the best sermons ever, but few stuck around once the food was gone

Dang calm, I knew you were a little older than me, but I didn't realize how much till now😁

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Is that a bad thing on a discussion board?

It depends. As the Lord Himself taught in John 7:17, the answers you claim to be looking for aren't found through talking.

Quote

My message is about looking to the future, yours seems like holding on to the past ...

As others have pointed out on different threads, you are the master of constructing straw men. I have, as a matter of fact, sincerely and strongly encouraged you to innovate in your personal ministry. I still hope that you will and that you will succeed in bringing people to Christ and His restored church in the process.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

As others have pointed out on different threads, you are the master of constructing straw men. I

I think it was the year 2001 and if I remember correctly 2012, I did masterfully construct a strawman for Halloween, both were placed on the front porch😁.  For some reason on here if someone wants to try to shut down a conversation they say it's a "strawman" "sockpuppet" or "anecdotal evidence". I don't think I've ever said  any of those three, I just take people at their word, and deal with it. My favorite is, "your life experience is anecdotal" almost as if people live life by reading ten articles before making decisions everyday. 

     You keep going back to why don't I do these things I'm suggesting, well, I don't have 130 billion laying around in the bank to try different scenarios to see if different activities would help boost attendance, but guess who does. Even if the church tried what I'm suggesting in one ward or one stake to see what happens. 

   Look at it this way, In my area our churh buildings are very plane, commercial looking, rectangular brick buildings that no one ever thinks twice about, ever. There's no signs out front except the one on the building that you can barely see from the road, and even if you could read it the part that says visitors welcome, is so small you would binoculars to read that part. Let's say once every 3 months we as a stake held a service at a local high school stadium, posted signs on the road welcoming all to attend a week before hand, advertised on the radio, had food afterwards for the community, are you telling that wouldn't excite you just a little bit??? 

 

 

 

I came back to add this Hamba, here's a suggestion because it seems your a little perturbed at my suggestion to have members holding signs and inviting people in. Google, "mormons holding signs". You'll find all kinds of people holding signs in protest against the church, even marching against the church, but if I suggest something like standing in front of the church holding signs to promote positivity and inviting people in,  Aaahhh!! That's not something we do Atlanticmike.  You do realize Mormonism is pretty insignificant in the world and in my area where we are like less than 1% of the population, people still think we have more than one wife. How is interacting with the community a bad thing? 

    I understand what I'm saying isn't popular on here, I can always tell if I'm pushing on the walls of the board comfort zone if I can get raingirl to upvote the person I'm in conversation with😉.   

Edited by AtlanticMike
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36 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

For some reason on here if someone wants to try to shut down a conversation they say it's a "strawman" "sockpuppet" or "anecdotal evidence".

Not quite.

I say strawman when I am tired of someone avoiding the conversation I am a part of and expecting me to go off on their derail of the conservation.  Iow, I use strawman to try and avoid having to shut down the conversation I got into first and that I am invested in.  While I enjoy some derails, I feel no obligation to go along with it, especially if someone misrepresents my comments as a springboard.

I say sock puppet when I believe there is a sock puppet solely because it is a violation of the trust and generously of the owner of the message board who has told us he doesn’t want sock puppets on the board, especially as a way to avoid moderation.  I have no issue with sock puppets otherwise and think they are rather fun when moderators allow them.  But bottomline, they don’t here and I respect my host’s choice.
 

I say anecdotal evidence when something is anecdotal evidence and therefore should be treated as such and neither elevated to the status of statistical evidence nor dismissed as equivalent to speculation.  I see no reason to dismiss anecdotal evidence as it has value, especially as possible direction for statistical research.  It also has great value if one is exploring individual experience.  But it is limited if one wants to find patterns, look at trends, or any other of a number of analyses that require consistent conditions and significant number of events/individuals/whatever to find reliable, repeatable information.
 

Most posters here, I believe, follow the same rules more or less.  This board has had a significant population of academics and scholars and wannabes, especially in the beginning and enough of us are still around to prefer discussion isn’t reduced to the usual assertions without foundation  and anecdotes of casual style debate.  Perhaps you don’t recognize what is going on since you weren’t around when the board was new and the moderators allowed more leeway.  They had a couple of years of ironing out the kinks so this board might survive where many others haven’t.  Those who don’t know the context are often confused, because it is after all just a group of acquaintances and semi strangers talking on the internet and the join with a different set of expectations.  Some seem to adapt quickly.  Others never do and those mostly fade away, probably bored or banned, though a couple stick around for whatever reason.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

You keep going back to why don't I do these things I'm suggesting, well, I don't have 130 billion laying around in the bank to try different scenarios to see if different activities would help boost attendance, but guess who does. Even if the church tried what I'm suggesting in one ward or one stake to see what happens. 

It is not that hard to collect information on what is working and what isn’t for churches out there.  I posted some data that had been collected.  You appear to dismiss it in favor of what you see, which is fine for you, but is hardly going to work for a global organization.  The Church also engages in pilot programs where they get one or a few wards or stakes to try things out.  I know of one just about to start.

Edited by Calm
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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I understand what I'm saying isn't popular on here, I can always tell if I'm pushing on the walls of the board comfort zone if I can get raingirl to upvote the person I'm in conversation with😉

In other words, you relish pot stirring. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In other words, you relish pot stirring. 

Says the man who calls women jackals.

   Your one of the poster I use to tell what is or isn't acceptable on here. 

Edited by AtlanticMike
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14 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Says the man who calls women jackals.

   Your one of the poster I use to tell what is or isn't acceptable on here. 

I have no idea what you’re talking about, but whatever it is, you’re probably taking it out of context at best or otherwise misrepresenting it — if indeed it has any factual basis at all. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I have no idea what you’re talking about, but whatever it is, you’re probably taking it out of context at best or otherwise misrepresenting it — if indeed it has any factual basis at all. 

Couple of months ago you were having a discussion with a few women on here, can't remember what it was about, and you thanked me for posting because the jackals were starting to circle you. All the posters you were talking about were women, I'm just saying. Do you see yourself as never stirring the pot?

Screenshot_20210609-122830~2.png

Edited by AtlanticMike
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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Couple of months ago you were having a discussion with a few women on here, can't remember what it was about, and you thanked me for posting because the jackals were starting to circle you. All the posters you were talking about were women, I'm just saying. Do you see yourself as never stirring the pot?

Screenshot_20210609-122830~2.png

It was a metaphor to denote the act of piling on. A figure of speech I might have used in any situation where one is getting attacked from several directions, regardless of the gender of those involved. Of course it suits your purpose to try to paint it as abusing women whether or not gender has anything to do with it. 
 

You seem to have honed this pot stirring thing to a fine art. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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