Scott Lloyd Posted March 30, 2021 Posted March 30, 2021 12 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: I should clarify. As a percentage of Net Earnings. In 2020 Starbucks donated $25million on net earnings of $665,000,000 or 4% vs LDS churches donation of less than 1% Question: Am I the crazy one here and the only one thinking that based on their gross income they could do more? I think you are comparing apples to oranges. The Church of Jesus Christ blesses lives in countless ways in addition to those that involve a transfer of funds and material goods. To effectuate those blessings, the Church conserves and applies its assets in accordance with what it deems to be its divinely appointed responsibilities (which include proclaiming the gospel, helping members improve their lives and helping to redeem the dead as well as caring for the poor and needy). By comparison, Starbucks appears to have as it’s mission, in addition to helping the poor and needy, to make a monetary profit on the sale of coffee to consumers. I don’t fault either one, but your comparison of what the Church of Jesus Christ does to what Starbucks does is grossly oversimplistic. 2
webbles Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 2 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: I should clarify. As a percentage of Net Earnings. In 2020 Starbucks donated $25million on net earnings of $665,000,000 or 4% vs LDS churches donation of less than 1% Question: Am I the crazy one here and the only one thinking that based on their gross income they could do more? But the LDS church donates a lot more than 1%. If we assume that the church has $7 billion revenue and contributes $1 billion, then that means it is spending around $6 billion for the welfare of others. Even if we assume that salaries come out of the $6 billion, I doubt it is sizeable chunk. That's $6B/$7B or 85%. If you include the investment increase as income and you assume an 8% yearly return, then it is $6B/$15B or 40%. That's a lot more than 4%. Now, maybe you think that what the church does isn't valid. And that is a possible outlook. But to me, what the church spends on is important for our welfare and is worthwhile. 3
Kenngo1969 Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 Does the applicable law allow the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to calculate, and to put a monetary value on, the number of volunteer hours donated each year to charitable causes? If such a thing were allowed, and if the Church of Jesus Christ were to calculate, to report, and to put a monetary value on the number of such hours, how might that change the calculus compared to other religious and charitable organizations? (I'm asking because (a) I don't know that it is allowed, and (b) even if it were allowed, I doubt the Church of Jesus Christ would do it.) 2
mgy401 Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: . . . vs LDS churches donation of less than 1% Why persist in this lie, when I’ve already shown that the correct figure is on the order of 17.9%? Edited March 31, 2021 by mgy401 2
Fair Dinkum Posted March 31, 2021 Author Posted March 31, 2021 19 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: I think you are comparing apples to oranges. The Church of Jesus Christ blesses lives in countless ways in addition to those that involve a transfer of funds and material goods. To effectuate those blessings, the Church conserves and applies its assets in accordance with what it deems to be its divinely appointed responsibilities (which include proclaiming the gospel, helping members improve their lives and helping to redeem the dead as well as caring for the poor and needy). By comparison, Starbucks appears to have as it’s mission, in addition to helping the poor and needy, to make a monetary profit on the sale of coffee to consumers. I don’t fault either one, but your comparison of what the Church of Jesus Christ does to what Starbucks does is grossly oversimplistic. I'm only comparing their respective charity contributions. Other intangibles I'll happily leave to you.
Fair Dinkum Posted March 31, 2021 Author Posted March 31, 2021 17 hours ago, webbles said: But the LDS church donates a lot more than 1%. If we assume that the church has $7 billion revenue and contributes $1 billion, then that means it is spending around $6 billion for the welfare of others. Even if we assume that salaries come out of the $6 billion, I doubt it is sizeable chunk. That's $6B/$7B or 85%. If you include the investment increase as income and you assume an 8% yearly return, then it is $6B/$15B or 40%. That's a lot more than 4%. Now, maybe you think that what the church does isn't valid. And that is a possible outlook. But to me, what the church spends on is important for our welfare and is worthwhile. The church does a lot good throughout the world and blesses the lives of its members in many ways. This thread is not about that. As stated in my OP it is my personal wish that the church, given its vast wealth, would donate more of its wealth on charities. The church currently donates less than 1%...in answer to a question asking me what would be enough I suggested 10% of its earnings. Starbucks donates 4%, Bill Gates intends to donate 100% I know that I am on a fools mission, the church will not change. It certainly has its reasons for amassing such a large fortune, but even fools can hope and I was merely expressing my hope for more charity.
Fair Dinkum Posted March 31, 2021 Author Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 15 hours ago, mgy401 said: Why persist in this lie, when I’ve already shown that the correct figure is on the order of 17.9%? Lumping the entirety of the churches mission and calling it charity does not in fact make it charity. I respectfully disagree that subsidizing some privileged white kids higher education tuition should be classified as charity, nor should the building of temples, chapels or mission work be called charity. I took the less than 1% number from the churches own press release, 2.5 Billion over 35 years is the churches own number, not mine and provided a link to the press release in my OP. If I have erred in transposing that number you are free to correct me, but please provide us all with documentation of my error. I would LOVE to be proven wrong. EDIT: I took a second look to see if I had somehow erred...Nope, still $2.5B in the past 35 years right there in black and white. I want to make clear. $2.5B is a substantial amount of money and I applaud the church for doing so much, I'm only asking the question that given the size of their retained earning reserve fund, couldn't they afford to do more? Edited March 31, 2021 by Fair Dinkum
Scott Lloyd Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 11 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: I'm only comparing their respective charity contributions. Other intangibles I'll happily leave to you. Which goes to my point: It’s short-sighted and simplistic to only consider “charities,” with the limited definition you put on that term, and thus place the Church of Jesus Christ in a less-than-favorable light. That is to say, if we set aside the giving to “charities” (as you define the term), what’s left in your comparison? Well, the Church of Jesus Christ is otherwise engaged in supporting and building up humanity, both living and dead; Starbucks is engaged in, well, selling coffee for profit. 3
webbles Posted March 31, 2021 Posted March 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said: The church does a lot good throughout the world and blesses the lives of its members in many ways. This thread is not about that. As stated in my OP it is my personal wish that the church, given its vast wealth, would donate more of its wealth on charities. The church currently donates less than 1%...in answer to a question asking me what would be enough I suggested 10% of its earnings. Starbucks donates 4%, Bill Gates intends to donate 100% I know that I am on a fools mission, the church will not change. It certainly has its reasons for amassing such a large fortune, but even fools can hope and I was merely expressing my hope for more charity. Where are you getting the 4% for Starbucks? I'm just curious since I'm having trouble finding those numbers. 1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said: I took the less than 1% number from the churches own press release, 2.5 Billion over 35 years is the churches own number, not mine and provided a link to the press release in my OP. If I have erred in transposing that number you are free to correct me, but please provide us all with documentation of my error. I would LOVE to be proven wrong. Last year, the amount donated is $200 million. Compare the 2020 press release (2.5 billion) with the 2019 press release (2.3 billion). I documented that in the other thread. The last several years, the amount donated has been over $100 million. 2
Popular Post webbles Posted March 31, 2021 Popular Post Posted March 31, 2021 I'm not sure Starbucks donates 4%. I found the Starbucks Foundation 990-PR for fiscal year 2019. You can see it at https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/display_990/911795425/10_2020_prefixes_91-94%2F911795425_201909_990PR_2020101317370516. If I read it right, it says that it received $11.5 million in contributions. That would be the maximum amount that Starbucks donated in 2019. And in fiscal year 2019, Starbucks had a net earnings of $3,599 million. I got that number from https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/SBUX/financials/annual/income-statement. 11.5 / 3599 = .003. So Starbucks is donating around 0.3%. The church donated $200 million in 2020. With the 8% increase on the $100B, that gives the church about an $8B net income. 200 / 8000 = .025. So the church is donating around 2.5%. Am I missing something? It looks like the church is donating more than 1% and that Starbucks is donating less than 4%. 7
mgy401 Posted April 2, 2021 Posted April 2, 2021 (edited) On 3/31/2021 at 12:29 PM, Fair Dinkum said: Lumping the entirety of the churches mission and calling it charity does not in fact make it charity. I respectfully disagree that subsidizing some privileged white kids higher education tuition should be classified as charity, nor should the building of temples, chapels or mission work be called charity. I took the less than 1% number from the churches own press release, 2.5 Billion over 35 years is the churches own number, not mine and provided a link to the press release in my OP. If I have erred in transposing that number you are free to correct me, but please provide us all with documentation of my error. I would LOVE to be proven wrong. EDIT: I took a second look to see if I had somehow erred...Nope, still $2.5B in the past 35 years right there in black and white. I want to make clear. $2.5B is a substantial amount of money and I applaud the church for doing so much, I'm only asking the question that given the size of their retained earning reserve fund, couldn't they afford to do more? “In 2019, Latter-day Saint Charities used these donations to help people in need around the world. These funds represent only a small part of the Church’s combined annual humanitarian and welfare aid expenditures (approaching $1 billion a year).” —Source, given for the second time in this thread Your animus towards white kids who commit the sin of wanting to be educated in a first-world country despite being unable to being to cough $40K per annum is duly noted, but the fact is that educational donations (let alone subsidizing one—or three—nonprofit universities) are absolutely deemed “charitable” when pretty much anyone but the Mormons do it. Indeed, apparently some sixteen percent of the Gateses’ donations have been to American schools (source). (Are the Gateses’ billions somehow sanctified by the donors’ admission that their philanthropy was largely ineffectual?) But I do agree with you, as noted above, that a more broad-reaching Church education initiative may ultimately prove both more desirable and more cost-effective. Time will tell. (By the way—wasn’t there an unholy stink when the Church closed a school in New Zealand a few years back?) Edited April 2, 2021 by mgy401 3
Fair Dinkum Posted April 9, 2021 Author Posted April 9, 2021 On 4/1/2021 at 7:24 PM, mgy401 said: “In 2019, Latter-day Saint Charities used these donations to help people in need around the world. These funds represent only a small part of the Church’s combined annual humanitarian and welfare aid expenditures (approaching $1 billion a year).” —Source, given for the second time in this thread Your animus towards white kids who commit the sin of wanting to be educated in a first-world country despite being unable to being to cough $40K per annum is duly noted, but the fact is that educational donations (let alone subsidizing one—or three—nonprofit universities) are absolutely deemed “charitable” when pretty much anyone but the Mormons do it. Indeed, apparently some sixteen percent of the Gateses’ donations have been to American schools (source). (Are the Gateses’ billions somehow sanctified by the donors’ admission that their philanthropy was largely ineffectual?) But I do agree with you, as noted above, that a more broad-reaching Church education initiative may ultimately prove both more desirable and more cost-effective. Time will tell. (By the way—wasn’t there an unholy stink when the Church closed a school in New Zealand a few years back?) “These expenditures also include significant use of the faith’s fast offering fund, which local bishops use to help the poorest members of their congregations”.- I rest my case
Fair Dinkum Posted April 9, 2021 Author Posted April 9, 2021 On 3/31/2021 at 2:02 PM, webbles said: Where are you getting the 4% for Starbucks? I'm just curious since I'm having trouble finding those numbers. Last year, the amount donated is $200 million. Compare the 2020 press release (2.5 billion) with the 2019 press release (2.3 billion). I documented that in the other thread. The last several years, the amount donated has been over $100 million. 4% of earned income
mgy401 Posted April 9, 2021 Posted April 9, 2021 (edited) 17 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: “These expenditures also include significant use of the faith’s fast offering fund, which local bishops use to help the poorest members of their congregations”.- I rest my case Your case was: I applaud LDS Charities and the lives they've been able to help but given the wealth of the church I question why only 2.5 billion has been donated in the past 35 years. That amounts to an average of $71.5 million per year. Given the fact that the church currently has a reserve fund of over $100 billion stock portfolio earning an average of 8% per year, that amounts to less than 1% of those earnings. A paltry .0715% to be exact. Surely the church could afford to do more than to donate a mere $4.33 per member per year? I really don't want this to come off as criticism since I appreciate all that they do, I just wish it was more. I showed you that the Church does exponentially more than donating $4.33/member/year; ultimately positing annual Church charitable spending of $2.68 billion/year, or $167.50/member/year. And apparently you’re salty because the spending comes from the wrong Church-directed fund, because people don’t need that any of that thar fancy book larnin’, and because many of the people who have been helped happen to be members of the wrong church. Some “case”. Edited April 9, 2021 by mgy401 1
secondclasscitizen Posted April 11, 2021 Posted April 11, 2021 On 3/29/2021 at 2:18 PM, Fair Dinkum said: I applaud LDS Charities and the lives they've been able to help but given the wealth of the church I question why only 2.5 billion has been donated in the past 35 years. That amounts to an average of $71.5 million per year. Given the fact that the church currently has a reserve fund of over $100 billion stock portfolio earning an average of 8% per year, that amounts to less than 1% of those earnings. A paltry .0715% to be exact. Surely the church could afford to do more than to donate a mere $4.33 per member per year? I really don't want this to come off as criticism since I appreciate all that they do, I just wish it was more. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/bc/content/shared/english/charities/pdf/2020/PD60011995-LDSC-Annual-Report-2020-desktop-eng.pdf?lang=eng You are not to question the church
Kenngo1969 Posted April 11, 2021 Posted April 11, 2021 4 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said: You are not to question the church If he, or anyone else, wishes to question the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its leaders, its practices, and so on, he's free to do so. But one's assumptions, one's information, where one gets one's information, the accuracy of one's information, and so on and so forth ... all of that matters. For any figure, particularly a monetary figure, what's included in the calculation (and what's not) matters. What if a monetary figure were put on the in-kind donations and the volunteer hours offered by (and to) the Church of Jesus Christ? How might that change the calculus? Obviously, the Church of Jesus Christ isn't going to attach a monetary figure to goods the Church itself produces. What else might be skewing the picture toward the distorted conclusion that the Church of Jesus Christ isn't doing enough? And if Fair Dinkum is free to question the Church of Jesus Christ, his interlocutors, likewise, ought to be free to question his underlying assumptions. 4
secondclasscitizen Posted April 11, 2021 Posted April 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said: If he, or anyone else, wishes to question the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its leaders, its practices, and so on, he's free to do so. But one's assumptions, one's information, where one gets one's information, the accuracy of one's information, and so on and so forth ... all of that matters. For any figure, particularly a monetary figure, what's included in the calculation (and what's not) matters. What if a monetary figure were put on the in-kind donations and the volunteer hours offered by (and to) the Church of Jesus Christ? How might that change the calculus? Obviously, the Church of Jesus Christ isn't going to attach a monetary figure to goods the Church itself produces. What else might be skewing the picture toward the distorted conclusion that the Church of Jesus Christ isn't doing enough? And if Fair Dinkum is free to question the Church of Jesus Christ, his interlocutors, likewise, ought to be free to question his underlying assumptions. You need to get back on your high blood pressure meds. Obviously you don’t have much of a sense for sarcasm.
Kenngo1969 Posted April 11, 2021 Posted April 11, 2021 (edited) 17 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said: You need to get back on your high blood pressure meds. Obviously you don’t have much of a sense for sarcasm. Either that, or it is difficult to pick up on in a medium such as this. Not to mention the fact that you're brand new here (at least you are if your post count is any indication) so next to no one has picked up yet on your particular style. And if my blood pressure were up because of something somebody has written here, believe me, you'd have absolutely no doubt. And apparently, given the reaction to my post, I'm not the only one who had difficulty grasping the tenor of your remark. Edited April 11, 2021 by Kenngo1969 2
secondclasscitizen Posted April 11, 2021 Posted April 11, 2021 1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said: Either that, or it is difficult to pick up on in a medium such as this. Not to mention the fact that you're brand new here (at least you are if your post count is any indication) so next to no one has picked up yet on your particular style. And if my blood pressure were up because of something somebody has written here, believe me, you'd have absolutely no doubt. And apparently, given the reaction to my post, I'm not the only one who had difficulty grasping the tenor of your remark. You had three whole reactions to your post. Hardly an overwhelming endorsement of your reaction lol. There are only about 50 Ish people even viewing posts at the moment. No one is looking much less making an effort to “me too” you post. anyway you can relax
secondclasscitizen Posted April 12, 2021 Posted April 12, 2021 On 3/31/2021 at 11:22 AM, Fair Dinkum said:It certainly has its reasons for amassing such a large fortune, but even fools can hope and I was merely expressing my hope for more charity. Good luck. The church will build another >$billion mall before it hands out more money to charities. Remember they fired thousands of janitors around the world to save money. Many of them were of such a mental state that I’d be surprised if they could get productive work anywhere else. At least in my limited experience a few of our janitors were that way. Funny thing is the church buildings are actually clean as opposed to the mess many in my area are now.
JAHS Posted April 12, 2021 Posted April 12, 2021 1 hour ago, secondclasscitizen said: You had three whole reactions to your post. Hardly an overwhelming endorsement of your reaction lol. There are only about 50 Ish people even viewing posts at the moment. No one is looking much less making an effort to “me too” you post. anyway you can relax When you are being sarcastic use the roll eyes emoji 🙄🙄
webbles Posted April 12, 2021 Posted April 12, 2021 On 4/8/2021 at 9:10 PM, Fair Dinkum said: 4% of earned income Can you show me the numbers that you are using to calculate 4%? I'm only calculating 0.3% in my above post.
Fair Dinkum Posted April 13, 2021 Author Posted April 13, 2021 On 4/9/2021 at 2:29 PM, mgy401 said: Your case was: I applaud LDS Charities and the lives they've been able to help but given the wealth of the church I question why only 2.5 billion has been donated in the past 35 years. That amounts to an average of $71.5 million per year. Given the fact that the church currently has a reserve fund of over $100 billion stock portfolio earning an average of 8% per year, that amounts to less than 1% of those earnings. A paltry .0715% to be exact. Surely the church could afford to do more than to donate a mere $4.33 per member per year? I really don't want this to come off as criticism since I appreciate all that they do, I just wish it was more. I showed you that the Church does exponentially more than donating $4.33/member/year; ultimately positing annual Church charitable spending of $2.68 billion/year, or $167.50/member/year. And apparently you’re salty because the spending comes from the wrong Church-directed fund, because people don’t need that any of that thar fancy book larnin’, and because many of the people who have been helped happen to be members of the wrong church. Some “case”. I’m not salty, I’m keeping the discussion focused. My OP was specifically regarding LDS charities. With a $130 billion I’m merely asking why can’t they do more than the $4.33 per member per year? Keep in mind those are the churches numbers not mine.
Fair Dinkum Posted April 13, 2021 Author Posted April 13, 2021 On 4/11/2021 at 9:33 AM, secondclasscitizen said: You are not to question the church Why not? Holding the church accountable to its claimed mission is a good thing
webbles Posted April 13, 2021 Posted April 13, 2021 56 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: I’m not salty, I’m keeping the discussion focused. My OP was specifically regarding LDS charities. With a $130 billion I’m merely asking why can’t they do more than the $4.33 per member per year? Keep in mind those are the churches numbers not mine. It is more than $4.33 per member. Last year, the church donated $200 million through Charities. That's about $12 per member. Granted, that is still not a lot, but it is more than $4.33. Also, with the increase of temples being announced by President Nelson, it is highly possible that they are actually dipping into the saving fund. 1
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