AtlanticMike Posted March 6, 2021 Posted March 6, 2021 On 3/4/2021 at 2:30 PM, rongo said: I ca see the "Overton Window" shifting with more serious law of chastity items, just like it has among almost all other Christian churches (even evangelicals). I think that JLHPROF is right; we're not there yet, but we're trending that way. I also agree with him that when a large enough group of active members, including leaders, personally believe differently than what the Church has taught, then it provides tremendous pressure to change. Just like with birth control, conservatism in sex practices, and (I would argue) the tendency with masturbation. One of my friends growing up in the early 90s was riddled with so much shame and guilt over masturbation, a couple weeks before his mission he confessed to the bishop and they postponed his call 6 months. 6 months later he didn't go, he went into the military. Luckily, now, our bishop who also grew up with the guy I'm talking about, he tells the youth to not worry about it and they have fully repented and there's no shame. I truly believe my bishop seeing our friend be depressed over his """ addiction """ in the 90s when we were young, made him sympathetic and choose to go lightly with the youth he councils today.
rongo Posted March 8, 2021 Posted March 8, 2021 On 3/6/2021 at 7:43 AM, AtlanticMike said: One of my friends growing up in the early 90s was riddled with so much shame and guilt over masturbation, a couple weeks before his mission he confessed to the bishop and they postponed his call 6 months. 6 months later he didn't go, he went into the military. Luckily, now, our bishop who also grew up with the guy I'm talking about, he tells the youth to not worry about it and they have fully repented and there's no shame. I truly believe my bishop seeing our friend be depressed over his """ addiction """ in the 90s when we were young, made him sympathetic and choose to go lightly with the youth he councils today. I never imposed lengths that long (6 months), unless there were other problems and/or the problem was so bad that he wasn't going to be able to use his priesthood for some time. On the spectrum, there are men who slip up occasionally (I told them that they could repent on their own and self-police as far as the sacrament, etc., but that if they found themselves frequently not worthy to take or administer the sacrament, then we needed to work together on tackling the problem), and men who had daily problems and were having great difficulty making progress. In those cases, they were not worthy to exercise their priesthood, and it was a DEFCON 1 situation we would take on (more time-intensive for the bishop). In general, though, I did not want people not formally disciplined going long periods of time without the sacrament. As you note, the guilt and shame need to be handled compassionately, sensitively, and diplomatically --- but without compromising the integrity of worthiness or the repentance process. It can be a tough needle to thread. People need a lifeline, and they need to fee like there is hope. My approach with the hard cases was a "stock market" approach --- even with slip ups, if the general trend is looking up and tangible progress is being made, then we are making progress. We would focus, like a battlefield, on "taking certain hills" and then holding them and then taking other positions while holding the positions we already had (if we lost ground, then we would redouble our efforts and retake those positions). I had two quotes framed by my desk for a number of things people struggle with (not just this): D&C 117:13 ("when he falls, he shall rise again, for his sacrifice shall be more sacred unto me than his increase, saith the Lord") and Journal of Discourses 9:362-363 (abbreviated, but basically, any progress we make, even when we backslide, is exaltation here and now). God loves you, you are a good person, we're going to beat this, and your sacrifice in getting back on the horse and getting thrown back off and getting back up is more sacred to the Lord than your increase (ultimate victory). Not more important, but more sacred --- He knows you and He knows exactly what it's like being you, and your efforts are sacred to Him. I don't think the current tendency to not address it at all does men and boys any favors, and I don't think it's saving them guilt and shame in the long run. The hens come home to roost, and they will be wracked with guilt in their 30s, even though they are being told that it's not a big deal. Conscience, the Light of Christ, and the Holy Ghost lead them to their bishops, despite all this conventional wisdom. 2
mfbukowski Posted March 8, 2021 Posted March 8, 2021 On 3/3/2021 at 12:55 PM, smac97 said: Interesting. I wonder what I means by "I am also openly gay." I would assume he means "I am gay, but I keep the Law of Chastity as taught by the Church." I can't help but wonder, though, if listeners might come away with a very different understanding. Thanks, -Smac If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound?
CV75 Posted March 8, 2021 Posted March 8, 2021 On 3/3/2021 at 3:55 PM, smac97 said: "I am also openly gay." Assuming as you say he is observing the law of chastity, it could mean his orientation is part of his public identity but is not his primary identity. It could also mean he is aware that there are non-sexual behavioral and social cues to his sexual orientation that he has adopted but does not intend to engage on a sexual level.
smac97 Posted March 8, 2021 Posted March 8, 2021 5 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Quote Interesting. I wonder what I means by "I am also openly gay." I would assume he means "I am gay, but I keep the Law of Chastity as taught by the Church." I can't help but wonder, though, if listeners might come away with a very different understanding. If a tree falls in a forest, does it make a sound? There was a sound. He posted it on Facebook. Thanks, -Smac 1
Islander Posted March 9, 2021 Posted March 9, 2021 On 3/3/2021 at 3:59 PM, JLHPROF said: The more the general membership changes to accept homosexuality in their daily lives the more it will impact the Church. Good and faithful recommend holders will continue to chip away at policies, push for inclusivity, and make decisions when they are called to leadership roles that are less firm than in decade prior. Most of those things you mention are either not from within or not considered sinful. I don't know people are asking the Church to accept drug use, abuse, or adultery as ok. And divorce is an interesting example. It used to be far more frowned upon in the Church than it is today. But as it became more acceptable in society it became more acceptable in the Church and Brigham's teachings on divorce are no longer considered true (even though they match the Savior's). I'm differentiating here between societal pressures from outside the Church which it is far easier to resist vs societal pressures among the members. If 90% of members believed homosexual relationships weren't sinful, that gay marriage was completely the same as straight marriage, and that God was ok with that relationship how long do you think the remaining 10% Church would hold the line? Especially once many of the 90% became Bishops, Stake Presidents, Seventies, or even Apostles? That's what I mean by chipping away. Every day faithful members of the Church change their view based on changes in society. Eventually the entire Church may not agree with the Law of Chastity as it's formulated today. It was already reworded once when plural marriage ended. The day that happens will be the beginning of another painful fracture in the Church. People do not make doctrine. God is the true and only arbiter of what is sin and He has never changed His mind in that regard. The word of God is not reversed by consensus and when the "world" swallows up the Church then it becomes just another dead congregation like the church of Sardis, and many will go their way. At the end, that is precisely what will happen. It may be 50-100 or 500 years but few will be left that are truly the elect that will stand faithful to the word and the revelation of God.
JLHPROF Posted March 9, 2021 Posted March 9, 2021 19 minutes ago, Islander said: The day that happens will be the beginning of another painful fracture in the Church. People do not make doctrine. God is the true and only arbiter of what is sin and He has never changed His mind in that regard. The word of God is not reversed by consensus and when the "world" swallows up the Church then it becomes just another dead congregation like the church of Sardis, and many will go their way. At the end, that is precisely what will happen. It may be 50-100 or 500 years but few will be left that are truly the elect that will stand faithful to the word and the revelation of God. I agree with basically everything you write here. But I don't believe the Church will be permitted to apostatize to that degree. But we also know from history that all it takes for the general membership body to apostatize is a little time.
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