Understanding How to Prevent and Respond to Sexual Predation in the Church

[Amulek]

26 minutes ago, pogi said:

...then you bring in whips, chains, and hand cuffs?   Serious man, this is messed up.

And shotguns. Don't forget the shotguns.

I've got no idea how those are supposed to play into things, but I'm fairly certain I don't want to know. 

 

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, Amulek said:

And shotguns. Don't forget the shotguns.

I've got no idea how those are supposed to play into things, but I'm fairly certain I don't want to know. 

 

to prevent people from being sexual predators.

Sheesh.  I'll send out the memo, again.

 

[pogi]

41 minutes ago, Ahab said:

to prevent people from being sexual predators.

Sheesh.  I'll send out the memo, again.

 

"By whatever means necessary" huh?  You mean...murdering them, or just threatening their lives?  Like I said, either way you look at it, this is messed up.  Not funny. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by pogi

[Ahab]

Just now, pogi said:

You mean...murdering them, or just threatening their lives?  Like I said, either way you look at it, this is messed up. 

Some cases of sexual predation, such as those that involve rape, sometimes require drastic action to get the sexual predator to stop predating.

And yes it can get messy sometimes.  But we're talking about actually getting sexual predators to stop predating, so it would be even more messed up to allow that sexual predators to continue predating when their predating is not wanted.

[MrShorty]

@smac97I don't know that I have a lot more good examples.

As you say, (significant) efforts to repudiate the chewed gum type analogies have been going on for some time. The earliest example I recall was an article in The New Era in the early '90s (approaching 3 decades ago). There's probably much that could be said about the dynamics of repudiating false doctrine and how long it takes for significant efforts to eradicate the doctrine. Decades of effort makes me wonder if there is something just beneath the surface of our beliefs about chastity and sexuality that makes us prone to believe that sexual sins are a special class of  sins with a special class of consequences that makes us all too willing to believe that sexual sin affects our redeemability or our desirability as a person.

In another direction, Christianity has long struggled with the question of whether God enthusiastically or begrudgingly approves of sex in marriage. Of course, I can go back through the history of the Church (back to Parley P Pratt) and find explicit statements that God approves (at least somewhat enthusiastically) of sex in marriage, but I see evidence that the broader Christian undercurrent still impacts our beliefs. Pres. Kimball once opined that oral sex was inappropriate in marriage (and that couples "guilty" of such should consider not attending the temple). Laura Brotherson's (and others') crusade against "good girl syndrome" suggests that there is a significant subset of Latter-day Saints who believe that God at best begrudgingly approves of sex in marriage.

[MrShorty]

Accidental double post.

Edited January 6, 2021 by MrShorty

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Some cases of sexual predation, such as those that involve rape, sometimes require drastic action to get the sexual predator to stop predating.

And yes it can get messy sometimes.  But we're talking about actually getting sexual predators to stop predating, so it would be even more messed up to allow that sexual predators to continue predating when their predating is not wanted.

"Messy" unlawful vigilante justice.  Not cool.

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

"Messy" unlawful vigilante justice.  Not cool.

You would rather allow a sexual predator to be successful in his or her pursuit of an unrighteous sexual conquest than shoot him or her to prevent it? 

In our legal system you could be considered an accomplice if you could have stopped it but instead allowed it to happen.

[pogi]

19 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You would rather allow a sexual predator to be successful in his or her pursuit of an unrighteous sexual conquest than shoot him or her to prevent it? 

In our legal system you could be considered an accomplice if you could have stopped it but instead allowed it to happen.

Trying to stop it and unlawfully killing/murdering them are two different things.   You shouldn't stop one act of unrighteousness with an even more grievous one. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by pogi

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

Trying to stop it and unlawfully killing/murdering them are two different things.   You shouldn't stop one act of unrighteousness with an even more grievous one. 

Sometimes that is what is necessary.  Sometimes saying No is not enough to prevent it. And sometimes physically pulling someone off of someone else isn't a viable option.  And kicking and screaming doesn't always work either.

Sure, the point is to just stop the sexual predator from predating but stopping the predator isn't easy, and some predators are so determined that the only way to get them to stop is to just shoot them. to just injure if you can but to kill if you must.

Not all sexual predators are snowflakes or namby pamby men or women who will run away when they are noticed or when they encounter some resistance. 

But, hey, whatever you can do to stop an unrighteous sexual encounter, you should just do that, whatever you have to do to stop it.

[MrShorty]

14 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Not all sexual predators are snowflakes or namby pamby men or women who will run away when they are noticed or when they encounter some resistance.

I'm sure there are a few who are willing to go down in a blaze of glory, but, from what I have seen in BSA and others' training/commentaries, most predators want quiet, easy access to victims so they can quietly groom their victim(s) under the radar (so they will tend to run or slink away when 'threatened'). Which is why policies like 2-deep leadership are supposedly so effective. Predators don't want to deal with the presence of a co-leader. Policies against giving/receiving special gifts work when the youth or parents or co-leader responds with, "it's a nice gesture, but the gift is inappropriate, because, you know, organization's YPT policy." Vigilante justice may sound like fun (right out of a movie), but it doesn't seem to be very high on the list of things that really make a difference in preventing abuse.

Edited January 6, 2021 by MrShorty

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Creeped out or not, we're simply focused on preventing sexual predators from predating... except within a righteous marriage, and those who are righteously married can sexually predate on each other however and however much they both want to.

I was so hoping you had a bunch of emojis like Kenngo and were kidding!

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

Creeped out or not, we're simply focused on preventing sexual predators from predating... except within a righteous marriage, and those who are righteously married can sexually predate on each other however and however much they both want to.

I have ADD which generally means we excel at doing the whole TMI thing and can I just say from me to you.....

Also can you recommend a good place to get gear?

Edited January 7, 2021 by The Nehor

[pogi]

51 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

I'm sure there are a few who are willing to go down in a blaze of glory, but, from what I have seen in BSA and others' training/commentaries, most predators want quiet, easy access to victims so they can quietly groom their victim(s) under the radar (so they will tend to run or slink away when 'threatened'). Which is why policies like 2-deep leadership are supposedly so effective. Predators don't want to deal with the presence of a co-leader. Policies against giving/receiving special gifts work when the youth or parents or co-leader responds with, "it's a nice gesture, but the gift is inappropriate, because, you know, organization's YPT policy." Vigilante justice may sound like fun (right out of a movie), but it doesn't seem to be very high on the list of things that really make a difference in preventing abuse.

Dang...I was looking forward to the day when our church leaders armed our youth leaders with chastity belts, whips, chains, handcuffs, and shotguns.