Doctrinal Query Regarding Part-member Families

[Fiveofclubs]

On 9/13/2020 at 10:44 AM, Kenngo1969 said:

As I said, this will be my last post in the thread.  I wish you well.

So much for that, huh?  Haha, no worries though, I welcome continued conversation , even if the level of engagement appears to have deteriorated somewhat between us.

"The prophets have spoken!  Any man who is over 25 and still single is a menace to society!"

I was unaware that such a statement constituted doctrine.  I had always considered that statement as a personal opinion, particularly in light of the fact that Jesus himself died as a single man past that age.  In further refutation, I wish to quote another prophet named Paul from 1 Corinthians chapter 7:

"For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.  I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I."

Turns out that Paul advocated solitude, so as to dedicate his efforts for the Lord.  Corinthians chapter 7 doubles down on this notion by stating the following as well:

"He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord: But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife. There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, and that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction."

So there you go, doesn't sound like "menace to society" material to me.  I'd say it sounds rather noble when put that way.

"I know better than to die single! "

Per your previous remarks on the matter, your singular status is not the result of your ill intentions or intentional disobedience of the Lord.  From what I've gathered, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you are something of a victim to circumstances that have limited your ability to pursue this issue.  I don't believe any unjust punishment will be rendered to you for things outside of your will and control.  

 

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, Fiveofclubs said:

... Per your previous remarks on the matter, your singular status is not the result of your ill intentions or intentional disobedience of the Lord.  From what I've gathered, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that you are something of a victim to circumstances that have limited your ability to pursue this issue.  I don't believe any unjust punishment will be rendered to you for things outside of your will and control.  

 

"Victim of circumstances"?  Heck, no!  Get that weak [bleep] out of here!  I'm confident that the Lord is waiting with 'bated breath, on the edge of his seat, all aquiver, to execute swift judgment on me the moment I shuffle off this mortal coil, and said judgment will probably be something involving, say, a brick pizza oven which has been heated to, oh, I don't know, say, 2000° Fahrenheit, to which my immortal soul will be consigned eternally!!!

No, you say?  You're sure he's not?  Okay.  I won't argue with you, and I certainly appreciate the notion that the Lord of the Universe will be merciful, but the question I have for you is, why is he not waiting to execute judgment on me, while, apparently, He is simply waiting to execute such judgment on you?  And if you come back at me with, "Well, the Prophets have said ..."  I'll simply say that there are prophetic statements, and there are Prophetic Statements, and they're not all created equal.  And around and around we go!!!

[Fiveofclubs]

3 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

No, you say?  You're sure he's not?  Okay.  I won't argue with you, and I certainly appreciate the notion that the Lord of the Universe will be merciful, but the question I have for you is, why is he not waiting to execute judgment on me, while, apparently, He is simply waiting to execute such judgment on you?

To answer your query, no, I'm not sure.  I'd really like to think that He would grant you mercy for factors outside of your control, as doing the opposite would not make Him very just, but I can't be sure.  However, I can be reasonably sure (doctrinally-speaking) that such mercy will not necessarily be extended to those who are not bound by factors outside of their control.  The reason it will likely be different for me than it is for you is because I made my decisions uninhibited by external factors beyond my control.  I made my choice in a controlled, informed frame of mind.  I could have chosen to do what I was taught was right, but I did not do so.  Therefore, my accountability on this matter is different to yours - I can't personally claim innocence or justify my actions through appeals to extraneous variables beyond my control.  That's the bottom line, unfortunately.

"I'm confident that the Lord is waiting with 'bated breath, on the edge of his seat, all aquiver, to execute swift judgment on me the moment I shuffle off this mortal coil, and said judgment will probably be something involving, say, a brick pizza oven which has been heated to, oh, I don't know, say, 2000° Fahrenheit, to which my immortal soul will be consigned eternally!!!"

My friend, peace be unto thy soul.  Even on the off-chance that the eternal marriage issue craps out for both of us and we are both barred a second chance in the life to come (speaking hypothetically, not as a reflection of my literal belief for your fate), hellfire is not the punishment that awaits us for that infraction.  So long as we live righteously and keep our covenants, all we have to fear for in the afterlife is eternal solitude and servitude, that's all.  

"And if you come back at me with, "Well, the Prophets have said ..."  I'll simply say that there are prophetic statements, and there are Prophetic Statements, and they're not all created equal."

Hahaha, no need.  Though, I am curious if you could explain what you mean by the difference between "prophetic statements" and "Prophetic Statements."  I haven't heard that dichotomy before.  How does one determine which is which?  

Thanks for your time.

[Rain]

On 9/15/2020 at 10:43 AM, Fiveofclubs said:

@Calm, thanks for letting me know about the edit function.  Until such a time as I can officially edit that post, I wish to acknowledge the mis-attribution of the quote to the wrong Rain-named user!

@Rain, thank you for adding to your thoughts and perspective.  I find (comparatively) little of objection to what you've stated there, as a part of me resonated with the experiences you've shared.

"If I am sealed to loved ones who choose another path will it pain me eternally?  It's really the same question - if we are separated from those we love will we feel pain from it?  Does God feel pain being separated from a third of his children ... My hope is that because of the love and joy that we have in the next life it somehow takes care of the pain.  And maybe that is something the atonement takes care of too." 

I hope with you that we would not be plagued for eternity with torment over the fallen fate of those who declined exaltation.  It was my understanding that Heaven was going to be a sorrow-less place, per the afterlife described by Revelations 21:  "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away."  Perhaps this is accomplished through the Atonement, but we don't have precedent upon which to base that belief.  However, we do have precedent to support the idea that Godhood bears an elevated status and perspective compared to the mortal lens.  I heard it supposed (by those outside of our faith) that our understanding of love will be restored to a higher understanding of God's love and justice, and we will subsequently accept that those who opted out of heaven will have made the choice best suited for them and we'll thereby have peace with it.  While this idea is an easier thing to accept given nontraditional views on the afterlife prospects of unrepentant sinners, it's difficult for me to imagine ever (personally) being at peace with bidding family members/friends farewell forever. But, that doesn't mean it's a faulty assertion outright.  For now, I guess we're left to wait and see. 

I cannot imagine how it will be.  I just have to trust that if God can be at peace being away from his children and if heaven exists then he must have a way for me to feel like it is really heaven and be at peace with it.

On 9/15/2020 at 10:43 AM, Fiveofclubs said:

"One night as I sobbed in pain I thought on the atonement and I wondered how Jesus could stand not only this much pain from me, but from everyone else as well.  It has had me on a quest for learning more about the atonement and how it works.  I really can't say I have learned much since then, but have had very brief glimpses of peace/light that keep me searching."

This was one such entry of yours that struck a familiar chord with me.  I've frequently thought upon this matter as well given my own relationships and the happenings that surround me, yet am no closer to determining exact answers regarding this topic.  I haven't yet to find glimpses of peace and light yet, but perhaps they will come.

"But what are those works?  I think we get in mind that our works are much different than the Lord is really asking for sometimes."

When I referenced that scripture, I have generally understood it to imply that "faith with action is impotent."  As for what action the Lord is expecting of me in this situation, I don't really know.  I know what action the Lord expected of me before I got married (get sealed in the temple), but since I waved the boat goodbye on that one, I'm sort of standing on an empty pier staring out at the waves wondering when or if the boat will return.  The boat's travel itinerary is not very clear - one sign says it will return if I hang tight, another says it will return if I want it to and act as though it will, and a third says that was the last boat departure and the pier will be closing indefinitely at 10 pm.  I have a general concept as to what I think He would want me to do, but I do not have a reference regarding definitive action.  

"...One thing I have found though is that sometimes when my spirit yearns for those answers and I can't seem to find them or it just dwells on me that sometimes the answer is not in those words, but in the still small voice to my heart.  It is that gut feeling that has me continue to search and search even though things seem to answer against what I am feeling.  I know there is some danger in this - you don't don't want to ask God for an answer to prayer that isn't best for you.  (Book of Mormon lost 116 pages).  But I think there is a difference in asking for an outcome you want verses really understanding His will when everything you are looking at seems to give you an answer different than what you feel."

[...]

"So what I am saying is while you are looking for the quotes and words of the prophets remember  to listen for the feeling of the Spirit too."  

For me, I guess this is the core issue at the end of the day, and very much my greatest struggle in my journey back into the fold.  I'm not quite certain of how to do this and ensure accuracy.  As I referenced earlier, there are various assertions in our doctrine and history that I have convictions about, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable disregarding opposing statements by divinely-inspired sources simply because I don't feel what they're saying is right. 

Take this thread topic, for example.  Because I am emotionally-invested in the topic, I'm certain that bias skews my internal deliberation regarding the subject matter.  My feelings want to believe in a God who will provide some way to make it right, despite the prophetic commentary on the matter.  The problem is, I have difficulty parsing whether that feeling is predicated on some subconscious self-interest and desire to avoid the weight of eternal accountability, or if it is a spiritual affirmation telling me that the scriptures and prophets were wrong on this point.  Since I can't tell if it's the Spirit or not, it seems best for me to defer to what the prophets have said.  I trust their ability to gain accurate revelation more than I trust my abilities to do so.

I'm interested to hear if you have any suggestions regarding how you discern the difference between Spirit/psychological processing in your life.  My father noted that emotions can be a vector for spiritual affirmation (per the "fruits of the spirit" listed in Galatians), but emotions are a bit of a tricky thing for me.  Given my genetic condition that impacts my emotional moderation, wherein my mind chemistry reacts to (often subconscious) stimuli in a disproportionate manner than is warranted by a general appraisal of the catalyst, I frequently question my emotional reactions through a prism of skepticism so as to dissuade unwarranted actions predicated upon those feelings.  In a sense, I have a history of false feelings, and have consequently grown a distrust for my emotional gauge as a reliable means of discernment. 

I would really like to answer you better personally, but I am dealing with a real lack of sleep the last couple of weeks and I'm afraid I don't have the energy to want to take the time to think through this and give you an answer in the way you deserve.  I'm sorry.  I will recommend a book though: Hearing the Voice of the Lord.  I read it a few years ago when I was having a similar struggle with determining what was the Spirit etc.  It is well backed up by quotes and scriptures.  I highly recommend it.  

On 9/15/2020 at 10:43 AM, Fiveofclubs said:

Regarding your comments about your Patriarchal Blessing, I hadn't thought of reading it that way before.  Mine is pretty short, and I've seemingly invalidated the majority of it wherein specific instructions were given, but there might be a hidden nugget or two tucked in between the lines somewhere.  

I hope you find those nuggets.  

On 9/15/2020 at 10:43 AM, Fiveofclubs said:

"No question you will be held responsible [for not getting my saving ordinance of sealing in life]!  But that doesn't mean there is no hope. Two very different things."

I'd like to think that there's hope in this regard, but I simply lack the authoritative resources to refute what the prophets have said on this point and I am emotionally-compromised regarding the subject.  I hope you're correct. 

"EVERYONE spiritually "mutilates" themselves.  Everyone.  The first time we sinned we did that.  There is a conference talk I really want to look at to answer this, but I can't put my finger on it."  

I imagine there are multiple conference talks about the damage of sin, but I agree that everyone sustains spiritual fallout from sin.  However, I was merely trying to provoke an image of the degree of spiritual damage that I had taken.  To continue the analogy, I think most church members are much less mutilated than I was.  While we consider all sin as bad, we acknowledge that sins have an associated "weight" to them and require different standards of repentance to pursue atonement and spiritual healing.  I had one of the really big no-no's on my ledger, which put me into a different spiritual category of "mutilation" than someone who occasionally lets out an accidental curse word.  Ultimately, the terminological distinction doesn't seem to ultimately matter for the point that I tried to make, unless that conference talk you're recalling has nuance that suggests otherwise.  If you do find it, I'll definitely give it a read.

"This makes me smile because it is SO like me.  Heavenly Father just gently laughs and tells me, "not this time.  You need to be searching for things for your own good."

"God does notice us, and he watches over us. But it is usually through another person that he meets our needs." - Spencer W. Kimball

Perhaps I'm simply misunderstanding what you intend to say, but that assertion seems to grant credence to my previous assertion against relying on (my own) feelings-based affirmation.  President Kimball contends that it is "usually" through another person that He meets our needs, which indicates it to be the vast majority. 

I worried about how I was wording that.  I was just trying to tell you I relate to how you are feeling. And sharing that by asking these questions of others you are both doing the work to find the answer and that I hope we can help you meet your needs.

On 9/15/2020 at 10:43 AM, Fiveofclubs said:

 

Regarding points of church doctrine, indeed, the Lord has prophets, seers, and revelators at the head of the church who suit the need to lead us on points of doctrine.  If my searching on this specific topic has yielded only a few specific results, each of which are in consensus on the point, how am I to conclude that Heavenly Father is gently laughing and urging me on in my search and not pulling his hair out in frustration and saying "It's all written right there, explicitly and specifically, and supported through authoritative interpretation!  Why does this seem unclear to you?  Do you treat any of my other specific recordings like the Sacrament prayer with this undue regard of doubt?  Why would I mislead the prophets and scriptures about a necessary ordinance of salvation, yet also tell you to follow their words as though they were My own?"

Thanks for your time.

 

Occasionally I've had these thoughts about my own children.  I remember though one day when I was "why are you not getting this?  It would be so much easier..." and then softly hearing the Spirit say, "why are YOU not getting this?"  The interesting thing was that the Lord at that moment didn't care so much about "this" as He did about my patience and love for my child.  I felt the mercy He had for me and knew He was telling me that I should have that mercy for my child as well.

Another day one of my children came to me with a problem.  I knew the child was struggling with it, but this child had hidden it.  It was so hard for them to approach me.  I was so grateful and happy that he was finally admitting he had a problem because I knew this was the road to recovery. Then light filled me as I recognized this is what God does with me as well. 

 

 

 

[Kenngo1969]

I've half-joked before here about the unappealing prospect of "The Rejected" in mortality attending a loooong Stake Singles dance in a desperate attempt to ameliorate our single status ... Perhaps I'm simply engaging in self-deception or self-delusion here, but the more I read up on the Second Coming and the Millennium, the more I think that would be a pretty cool time to fall in love with someone.  We wouldn't have to deal with any of the ... ummm ... stuff that often accompanies that prospect under current circumstances.

Besides, I plan on being A Total Stud once I'm twinkled.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I've half-joked before here about the unappealing prospect of "The Rejected" in mortality attending a loooong Stake Singles dance in a desperate attempt to ameliorate our single status ... Perhaps I'm simply engaging in self-deception or self-delusion here, but the more I read up on the Second Coming and the Millennium, the more I think that would be a pretty cool time to fall in love with someone.  We wouldn't have to deal with any of the ... ummm ... stuff that often accompanies that prospect under current circumstances.

Besides, I plan on being A Total Stud once I'm twinkled.

Personality, stacks way up above "looks" to me! And to many women besides myself, and looks fade. I think you're adorable!!

[Kenngo1969]

54 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Personality, stacks way up above "looks" to me! And to many women besides myself, and looks fade. I think you're adorable!!

Meh.  I think as "twinkled"/resurrected beings, we're all going to look like the best version of ourselves, anyway. and looks ... aren't going to fade ... then. And I think that it really is true what they say: There's no accounting for taste, so there's someone for everyone.  What you might find attractive, someone else might not, and vice-versa.  But you're right: There's much more to life and to relationships than looks.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

Burp.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Kenngo1969

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Burp.

Haha!!! Laughter will win every time! 

[Kenngo1969]

18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Haha!!! Laughter will win every time! 

Still trying to get used to the new Board software.

[The Nehor]

On 9/21/2020 at 2:59 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

Oh, come on, Fiveofclubs!  The prophets have spoken!  Any man who is over 25 and still single is a menace to society!  I'm double that, which means I'm doubly a menace to society!  I'm simply evaluating my situation in light of black-letter doctrine here!  Now, if you'll excuse me, I must get back to binge-watchingThirteen Reasons Why.  Besides which, I'll never break my habit of using UBB tags, so that's also hopeless!

There is no chain connecting that quote to Brigham Young. It first shows up in a speech given at BYU. It is possible the speaker had a reference for it or an oral history going back to Brigham Young but the quote is not substantiated.

Still, it would not be out of character for him to have said something like that. That still does not mean he did.

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

There is no chain connecting that quote to Brigham Young. It first shows up in a speech given at BYU. It is possible the speaker had a reference for it or an oral history going back to Brigham Young but the quote is not substantiated.

Still, it would not be out of character for him to have said something like that. That still does not mean he did.

Frankly, I don't care about the provenance of the quote.  For my purposes (illustrating that because someone who was (or who later became) prophet and President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, allegedly, at some time, said something does not. ipso facto and or res ipsa loquitur, make that utterance the official doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) that quote serves as well as myriad others.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Kenngo1969