What Message do I Intend?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

............................. Douglas, in my view, would say what I say: I kneel to no one and nothing, but only to G-d...............................

According to the Pulitzer Prize winning biography by David Blight, Frederick Douglass: Prophet of Freedom (Simon & Schuster, 2018), he hated slavery of course, but he loved the Constitution and the brilliance of the Founding Fathers.  Just as Dr Martin Luther King Jr long after him, he celebrated the promise of America and civil liberties.  For all his righteous indignation, Douglass would certainly support the right of anyone to take the knee during our National Anthem, just as he would speak to the positive reality of American democracy.  He was a true patriot and one of the greatest men this country has ever produced.  Spike Lee is apparently doing a biopic on him.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Robert F. Smith

[USU78]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

According to the Pulitzer Prize winning biography by David Blight, Frederick Douglass: Prophet of Freedom (Simon & Schuster, 2018), he hated slavery of course, but he loved the Constitution and the brilliance of the Founding Fathers.  Just as Dr Martin Luther King Jr long after him, he celebrated the promise of America and civil liberties.  For all his righteous indignation, Douglass would certainly support the right of anyone to take the knee during our National Anthem, just as he would speak to the positive reality of American democracy.  He was a true patriot and one of the greatest men this country has ever produced.  Spike Lee is apparently doing a biopic on him.

Agree to disagree. Emotional triggers are powerful. Our shared experience with ritual, both of word, gesture, and body posture, convince me that, were Douglas to see Spike engage voluntarily in a ritual of submission, he'd most likely say, "Kid, are you out of your friggin' mind?"

[let’s roll]

6 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Agree to disagree. Emotional triggers are powerful. Our shared experience with ritual, both of word, gesture, and body posture, convince me that, were Douglas to see Spike engage voluntarily in a ritual of submission, he'd most likely say, "Kid, are you out of your friggin' mind?"

  From my studies of him, Mr. Douglas appears to be a thoughtful man.  Your hypothetical posits that seeing a man living more than 100 years after he died, Mr. Douglas would presume to understand the meaning behind that man’s behavior.  

My belief is that Mr. Douglas would not presume to know, but instead would inquire.  Perhaps something along the lines of “tell me your story young man.”   Mr. Douglas and Mr. Lee, that would indeed be an interesting conversation.  One I’d enjoy hearing.

[Calm]

Given the reason "I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of colour,”*** Douglass might very well join imo.  It is not a sign of submission in this context.  If Douglass was likely willing to kneel in prayer as a Christian while not kneel to submit to any man, he would understand that the gesture means different things in different contexts  

****https://www.bbc.com/news/explainers-53098516

Edited July 5, 2020 by Calm

[USU78]

Kneeling is and always has been a sign of submission, akin to baring one's throat. "Chop off my head or raise me up, chief."

[let’s roll]

10 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Kneeling is and always has been a sign of submission, akin to baring one's throat. "Chop off my head or raise me up, chief."

What sign/message do you suppose the Savior intends that we understand by His kneeling to wash the feet of His disciples?

[rodheadlee]

11 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

What sign/message do you suppose the Savior intends that we understand by His kneeling to wash the feet of His disciples?

Humility in the service of others.Submission of ego.

[USU78]

40 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

What sign/message do you suppose the Savior intends that we understand by His kneeling to wash the feet of His disciples?

Yup. He, the One most entitled to receive all our submission, gets to turn all our experience, all our instincts on their heads. He is, in that moment the once in creation zebra.

The rest of us get to clip-clop away and complain and shudder at the bit.

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, USU78 said:

Agree to disagree. Emotional triggers are powerful. Our shared experience with ritual, both of word, gesture, and body posture, convince me that, were Douglas to see Spike engage voluntarily in a ritual of submission, he'd most likely say, "Kid, are you out of your friggin' mind?"

That's "Douglass" with a double-s, and he was a gentleman who did not use such language, and who was very kind to those with diverse opinions.  He was a man who was as  comfortable in England and Scotland as he was in the USA (he traveled widely, and was received with great respect and appreciation).

[USU78]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That's "Douglass" with a double-s, and he was a gentleman who did not use such language, and who was very kind to those with diverse opinions.  He was a man who was as  comfortable in England and Scotland as he was in the USA (he traveled widely, and was received with great respect and appreciation).

I am likewise a great fan. He is one of that tribe of polymaths that I constantly endeavor, in my limited, stumbling way, to ape. Those guys were so vast. We are truly lesser sons of greater sires.

[Tacenda]

11 hours ago, USU78 said:

Kneeling is and always has been a sign of submission, akin to baring one's throat. "Chop off my head or raise me up, chief."

That's odd to me. I remember going to my in-laws before marrying my husband and at dinnertime we'd kneel to say the blessing over the food, or kneel at family parties before eating the meal. At my home my parents didn't have we kids do this. So I was kind of taken aback but soon really enjoyed this ritual that continued on in my extended family. I don't think kneeling is like submission or something like you've described. Just reverence or ?. I think kneeling for BLM is a peaceful protest, the peaceful protest that was asked when the protests started getting out of hand. Maybe if America had taken it serious at the first kneel during the National Anthem as long as it's known that the protest didn't mean to down the flag, just a way to get some recognition that something needs to be done and we wouldn't have had the problems later on. And maybe if the US had known that right at the beginning all should have worn masks and continued life and going to school and work, we wouldn't be in this mess.

[USU78]

More on kneeling as ritual:

https://reformjudaism.org/blog/2020/06/04/when-holy-act-kneeling-becomes-weapon

The civil ritual of communal standing and singing accompanied by appropriate to the status of the individual approved hand gestures brooks ill intentional or weaponized non-conformity. Courts, wisely or unwisely, imposed conformity of non-conformity, but left unsolved the cost to community unity, trust, and good will occasioned by this.

Imagine the chief judge imposing on the Zarahemlites nonresponse to the burning of the Standard of Liberty. How would the community survive?

[Navidad]

Methinks many of us (broad generic term) wear spiritual masks. They are designed both to protect us from "the other" who doesn't believe as we do, and therefore might contaminate us, and to hide our own infirmities from both others and ourselves. 

I think there can be a lot of spiritual shaming connected to the wearing of spiritual masks. Perhaps that is why in the NT, both Greek words used to describe partiality, being a respecter of persons include the Greek word for face! 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

That's odd to me. I remember going to my in-laws before marrying my husband and at dinnertime we'd kneel to say the blessing over the food, or kneel at family parties before eating the meal. At my home my parents didn't have we kids do this. So I was kind of taken aback but soon really enjoyed this ritual that continued on in my extended family. I don't think kneeling is like submission or something like you've described. Just reverence or ?. I think kneeling for BLM is a peaceful protest, the peaceful protest that was asked when the protests started getting out of hand. Maybe if America had taken it serious at the first kneel during the National Anthem as long as it's known that the protest didn't mean to down the flag, just a way to get some recognition that something needs to be done and we wouldn't have had the problems later on. And maybe if the US had known that right at the beginning all should have worn masks and continued life and going to school and work, we wouldn't be in this mess.

Yes, and all these years later NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell finally apologized to players for kneeling and demanding change.  https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/sport/roger-goodell-responds-nfl-stronger-together-video/index.html

[USU78]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That's "Douglass" with a double-s, and he was a gentleman who did not use such language, and who was very kind to those with diverse opinions.  He was a man who was as  comfortable in England and Scotland as he was in the USA (he traveled widely, and was received with great respect and appreciation).

Hah! Just, on a whim, did a familysearch search. He's my 7th cousin thrice removed. How fun is that?

[Robert F. Smith]

48 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Hah! Just, on a whim, did a familysearch search. He's my 7th cousin thrice removed. How fun is that?

What's his Family Search ID?  I'd like to check also.

[rodheadlee]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, and all these years later NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell finally apologized to players for kneeling and demanding change.  https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/05/sport/roger-goodell-responds-nfl-stronger-together-video/index.html

The fans hate it.Bringing politics into our football time is ruining the experience of being united with your fellow fans.The NFL,NASCAR and MLB are going to lose many fans.

[Robert F. Smith]

31 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

The fans hate it.Bringing politics into our football time is ruining the experience of being united with your fellow fans.The NFL,NASCAR and MLB are going to lose many fans.

Well, of course.  We are a very schismatic society.  Differences of opinion are not respected, tolerance is thrown to the winds.  They talk the talk of free speech and free thought, but immediately show their hypocrisy via cancel-culture, doxxing, etc.  Every Karen must have her day, with no thought for the consequences.  Unity through being just another brick in the wall?  Maybe not worth the price.