Amulek Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Calm said: Are the protestors the only ones possibly making mistakes in their desire to change things? Undoubtedly not. Quote I think people expect violence from protestors to a certain extent. I think violence is a bad means which, on balance, tends to bring about bad ends. I would think those objecting to the use of violence by law enforcement would be acutely aware of that. Quote When they see excessive violence from police, that may be more shocking to many and is as likely imo to lead to greater calls for changes. The protests have shown success in getting that message out. I suppose we'll see. I'm skeptical that we have reached a turning point with respect to our nation's police brutality problem (which I candidly admit is a problem). 1
Calm Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 11 minutes ago, Amulek said: think violence is a bad means which, on balance, tends to bring about bad ends. I would think those objecting to the use of violence by law enforcement would be acutely aware of that. What percentage of protestors are actually violent?
Amulek Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: The police response to peaceful protestors has included hundreds of unnecessary, unprovoked attacks to date. I think that should confirm concerns over the violence sanctioned by the state through police. Police officers are presently under intense strain, facing violent attacks that have included officers being shot, hit by cars, assaulted with rocks, etc. I'm grateful that when I go to work I don't have to worry about somebody setting my vehicle on fire. That isn't to say that every use of force by law enforcement has been justified. They clearly haven't been. And when LEO's engage in unjustified, unlawful behavior they should be held accountable for that. But when I see protesters breaching police precincts and whatnot, how do you think the police ought to respond? 1
Amulek Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, The Nehor said: Wow, we really are reliving the Civil Rights movement. Hardly. Quote That was a common talking point as to why the protests should stop. History does not repeat itself but the lyrics do rhyme a lot. Don't have a problem with protests - just riots. 1
Meadowchik Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, Amulek said: Police officers are presently under intense strain, facing violent attacks that have included officers being shot, hit by cars, assaulted with rocks, etc. I'm grateful that when I go to work I don't have to worry about somebody setting my vehicle on fire. That isn't to say that every use of force by law enforcement has been justified. They clearly haven't been. And when LEO's engage in unjustified, unlawful behavior they should be held accountable for that. But when I see protesters breaching police precincts and whatnot, how do you think the police ought to respond? I'm talking about unprovoking peaceful protestors being attacked by police. American police have become hypermilitarised while not having the proper accountability. It is a systemic problem, and police reform will imo benefit police officers, too. 1
Calm Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 34 minutes ago, Amulek said: I'm skeptical that we have reached a turning point with respect to our nation's police brutality problem (which I candidly admit is a problem). We are a sick nation if it takes another decade or five to change.
Amulek Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 18 minutes ago, Calm said: What percentage of protestors are actually violent? I don't know. I suspect it's only a small portion making up the violent element, and I suspect they are intentionally using the surrounding peaceful protesters as cover, much like how gorilla warfare operators hide out near hospitals and orphanages, using the innocents as collateral damage shields. Still, if you were a law enforcement officer, how many stories like this one (where a fellow officer was shot in the back of the head) would you need to hear before you decided to err on the side of your own personal safety when dealing with similar situations?
Calm Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Amulek said: Still, if you were a law enforcement officer, how many stories like this one (where a fellow officer was shot in the back of the head) would you need to hear before you decided to err on the side of your own personal safety when dealing with similar situations? So police are justified to broadly mistreat innocents confused with a small group of violent protestors? But protestors get often condemned when they speak of systemic racism in violence based on a subgroup of officers even though their lives are being threatened by that smaller group. In essence protestors appear to be reasoning they are erring on the side of caution to act now for change rather than to allow the racism to continue and risk harm and death in the future for themselves, family, friends, and community. ——- My apologies if you are not saying that police who are violent because of reaction to stories rather than actual violent protestors are justified and instead they are wrong and should be held fully accountable when this happens, but that it still is going to happen because it is human nature. Edited June 23, 2020 by Calm
Amulek Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 25 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I'm talking about unprovoking peaceful protestors being attacked by police. As I said before, if LEO's engage in unjustified, unlawful behavior they should be held accountable for that. 2
Amulek Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 25 minutes ago, Calm said: We are a sick nation if it takes another decade or five to change. I think it's a much more difficult problem to solve than most people think. 2
Calm Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Amulek said: I think it's a much more difficult problem to solve than most people think. I think it is a horrendously complicated situation, I am not suggesting it will be solved. I am talking about refusals to even try because those believing they aren’t being giving the right amount of respect when asked (because this is what it comes down to in many cases imo such as the reaction to taking a knee during the National Anthem). Edited June 23, 2020 by Calm 2
Storm Rider Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 It may be worthwhile if the draft was reinstituted and one either serves in the military or the police. It makes me think of conversations with vegans who have grown up in cities and have never been around livestock, growing vegetables - the basics of running a small farm. The city dweller screams at the country folk about how evil they are for everything from not being organic growers to eating meat. Yet, they don't have a clue about what it means to run a farm, working with the soil, or animals. I think individuals might change their mind about how to do things or what is acceptable if they worked full time with the public in the same capacity of the police. I do not say this thinking that individuals should accept unjustified violence from our police, but being required to work with large crowds in volatile situations is not easy and in today's world it seems they are all just one step about from being a mob. The current protests did NOT start out as peaceful; they started out as violent, ugly, protests and were very much in the same vein of protests that began with Rodney King and have attended almost every major protest since. This includes the raping and pillaging after hurricane Katrina in the Superdome. Crowds turn into out-of-control mobs too quickly. 1
Amulek Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 5 minutes ago, Calm said: So police are justified to broadly mistreat innocents confused with a small group of violent protestors? No, if police engage in unjustified, unlawful behavior then they should be held accountable for that. However, I am willing to tolerate a degree of leniency for occasions where innocent bystanders get caught up and are injured only accidentally. For example, there was a case where police were being assaulted by rocks, and they fired a non-lethal projectile at the perpetrator (a bean-bag, if I remember right) which accidentally hit and injured an innocent protester. If the officer was operating according to the rules of engagement, then perhaps nothing more than a warning of caution is necessary (note: I'm not saying he should automatically get a pass though - just that the entirety of the circumstances should be taken into account). Quote But protestors get often condemned when they speak of systemic racism in violence based on a subgroup of officers even though their lives are being threatened by that smaller group. Are their lives being similarly threatened though? My tentative thought is that there is a difference between the existential threat posed by the possibility of police mistreatment in general and the actual acts of physical violence which have resulted from the violent element surrounding the protests (see, e.g., here for a breakdown). 2
Meadowchik Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 28 minutes ago, Amulek said: As I said before, if LEO's engage in unjustified, unlawful behavior they should be held accountable for that. Yes, but systemic changes are also needed to prevent abuse of power. 1
Meadowchik Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Amulek said: I think it's a much more difficult problem to solve than most people think. There are excellent reform proposals already, drafted by people with deep scientific and experiential knowledge about the problems.
Calm Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: There are excellent reform proposals already, drafted by people with deep scientific and experiential knowledge about the problems. I like this one: https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/06/22/when-crisis-workers-not-traditional-police-respond-to-calls-about-mental-health?fbclid=IwAR0RYntgUWe41M_hy8CC7x0SXhlFtqM_38NpgwL4AaVDXaGia4Br4NeV5qo 1
Amulek Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: There are excellent reform proposals already, drafted by people with deep scientific and experiential knowledge about the problems. I am aware. The reality, however, is that we lack the political will to see any of the more meaningful changes through. For example, one of the biggest problems systemically is overcriminalization. I remember once reading an article that said you should only ever pass laws for things which you are willing to kill somebody over, because ultimately it is the police who enforce the law, and enforcing the law sometimes involves the use of physical force, and sometimes the use of physical force results in the use of deadly physical force. But good luck getting somebody to win an election while running on the "Make More Crimes Legal" platform.
Meadowchik Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Amulek said: I am aware. The reality, however, is that we lack the political will to see any of the more meaningful changes through. For example, one of the biggest problems systemically is overcriminalization. I remember once reading an article that said you should only ever pass laws for things which you are willing to kill somebody over, because ultimately it is the police who enforce the law, and enforcing the law sometimes involves the use of physical force, and sometimes the use of physical force results in the use of deadly physical force. But good luck getting somebody to win an election while running on the "Make More Crimes Legal" platform. Actually the current conditions with the pandemic, etc... make societal upheaval and reform predictable by sociologists. In other words, time is very likely ripe to gender the political will for significant systemic changes. Edited June 23, 2020 by Meadowchik
Calm Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Amulek said: between the existential threat posed by the possibility of police mistreatment in general Could you explain what you mean by this please (couple of ways to interpret this and I do t want to assume the wrong one)?
bluebell Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 24 minutes ago, Amulek said: I am aware. The reality, however, is that we lack the political will to see any of the more meaningful changes through. For example, one of the biggest problems systemically is overcriminalization. I remember once reading an article that said you should only ever pass laws for things which you are willing to kill somebody over, because ultimately it is the police who enforce the law, and enforcing the law sometimes involves the use of physical force, and sometimes the use of physical force results in the use of deadly physical force. But good luck getting somebody to win an election while running on the "Make More Crimes Legal" platform. So everyone against capitol punishment should refuse to pass any laws?
bluebell Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 26 minutes ago, Calm said: I like this one: https://www.mprnews.org/story/2020/06/22/when-crisis-workers-not-traditional-police-respond-to-calls-about-mental-health?fbclid=IwAR0RYntgUWe41M_hy8CC7x0SXhlFtqM_38NpgwL4AaVDXaGia4Br4NeV5qo I like this idea. But considering the high level of violence that happens with mental health calls, this could be very dangerous for crisis workers, which makes me apprehensive.
bluebell Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: Yes, but systemic changes are also needed to prevent abuse of power. Training needs to change.
USU78 Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Calm said: I think it is a horrendously complicated situation, I am not suggesting it will be solved. I am talking about refusals to even try because those believing they aren’t being giving the right amount of respect when asked (because this is what it comes down to in many cases imo such as the reaction to taking a knee during the National Anthem). Purposely provocative actions aren't peaceful, and those engaging in them are not being honest if they express bewilderment at not being greeted with lollipops by those they design to inflame. 3
USU78 Posted June 23, 2020 Posted June 23, 2020 7 minutes ago, bluebell said: Training needs to change. Tarkin: No star system will dare oppose the Emperor now. Leia Organa: The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers. Diminishing returns can affect effectiveness. Humans may only be capable of so much. At such points, the ones encountering the highly trained and exquisitely armed should really try not to be provocative, seems to me. 1
bluebell Posted June 24, 2020 Posted June 24, 2020 One thing to consider is that my conservative Facebook friends' (which are most of my Facebook friends) are doubling down on their support of Trump with all of these riots, and they are becoming very vocal about it (where they hadn't been before). The toppling of statues memes have brought even more of my normally politically quiet friends out of the woodwork in favor of Trump. This has especially exploded today after the news networks started reporting Shawn King saying that statues of Christ need to be removed because they support white supremacy. There is something to be said for being wary of the law of unintended consequences. 2
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