Scott Lloyd Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 9 minutes ago, Tacenda said: I wish she would have explained herself though, as to why critics have got to be kidding. I'd love her full opinion, because I'm so very confused about the whole thing. There is much to be gained from reading the FairMormon treatment I linked to.
blueglass Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: FairMormon: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Book_of_Mormon/Witnesses/"Eye_of_Faith"_and_"Spiritual_Eye"_statements_by_Martin_Harris#Question:_Did_Martin_Harris_tell_people_that_he_did_not_see_the_plates_with_his_natural_eyes.2C_but_rather_the_.22eye_of_faith.22.3F One thing I like about this article is it leaves open for both spiritual and natural and cites the scriptures that may have influenced Martin Harris. "When Martin Harris said that he had seen the angel and the plates with his "spiritual eyes" or with an "eye of faith" he may have simply been employing some scriptural language that he was familiar with." Ether 12:19 "19 And there were many whose faith was so exceedingly strong, even before Christ came, who could not be kept from within the veil, but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with an eye of faith, and they were glad." Moses 1:11 "11 But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him." 2 Cor 12:2 "2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven." D&Cov 17:1-2 "1 Behold, I say unto you, that you must rely upon my word, which if you do with full purpose of heart, you shall have a view of the plates, and also of the breastplate, the sword of Laban, the Urim and Thummim, which were given to the brother of Jared upon the mount, when he talked with the Lord face to face, and the miraculous directors which were given to Lehi while in the wilderness, on the borders of the Red Sea. 2 And it is by your faith that you shall obtain a view of them" Edited March 1, 2020 by blueglass 1
Tacenda Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: There is much to be gained from reading the FairMormon treatment I linked to. She doesn't say go to FairMormon though, that's what I'm saying she leaves you hanging.
stemelbow Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 It'll be a good show to watch I think. Sadly though it's a useless topic considering the whole story. The witnesses and the plates are pointless items. Joseph likely didn't translate, as per skousen. Also as per those who described what was happening as the story passed through Joseph's lips, the plates had no part in it. They sat hidden or covered up, and he didn't consult them. Thus the 8 witness story is useless and the 3 witnesses has an angel in vision with god, who apparently has spoken many varied things to people, saying something to them in dream. But the story is already a 19th century production with themes representing that era. So if the plates were ancient, taves interesting observation taken into account, it simply could only contain a very separate version from the BoM. But movies can be fun to watch even if they have weak application to the true events.
Calm Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: She doesn't say go to FairMormon though, that's what I'm saying she leaves you hanging. It is a 2 or 3 minute trailer, not an educational podcast. Trailers are meant to “leave you hanging” to get you to watch it. Do you see trailers in the theaters for mysteries and think “they didn’t tell us who the murderer was, cheap trick”? 1
Tacenda Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Calm said: It is a 2 or 3 minute trailer, not an educational podcast. Trailers are meant to “leave you hanging” to get you to watch it. Do you see trailers in the theaters for mysteries and think “they didn’t tell us who the murderer was, cheap trick”? How much time does it take to say, "Go to fairmormon.com Book of Mormon witnesses, to see what I mean." Edited March 1, 2020 by Tacenda
Calm Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Tacenda said: How much time does it take to say, "Go to fairmormon.com Book of Mormon witnesses, to see what I mean." Seriously, it is a promo for a movie. It is supposed to get people interested in the movie, not a website, with unanswered questions. You are asking an appetizer to be the main course. Edited March 1, 2020 by Calm 1
Tacenda Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Calm said: Seriously, it is a promo for a movie. It is supposed to get people interested in the movie, not a website, with unanswered questions. You are asking an appetizer to be the main course. I wish she hadn't said, "Are you kidding me?", because it sounds condescending, IMO. Edited March 1, 2020 by Tacenda
Calm Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 (edited) Tacenda, why aren't you demanding Ann Taves support her claim that there were no [added to correct] ancient plates? Edited March 2, 2020 by Calm 1
Tacenda Posted March 1, 2020 Posted March 1, 2020 26 minutes ago, Calm said: Tacenda, why aren't you demanding Ann Taves support her claim that there were no plates? I guess I should treat that equally, since I believe Joseph made the plates. But still feel he was driven by what he thought needed to happen because of the lack of belief in the surrounding faiths. A little back story on this, I recently went to Arizona for a getaway. We decided to go see a Giants baseball game, they were there for spring training. We sat by a lady who was from Texas bordering Louisiana, and my husband mentioned he knew the towns around there. She asked why he had visited those towns and I mentioned that it was because he went on an LDS mission. But had to tell her we weren't active at the moment. She then asked if she could be personal and asked why not, I told her because I found information that I wasn't told about in church history and it led me down the rabbit hole. She is a non-LDS Christian, and she was worried I lost my belief in Jesus. I told her it's holding on by a thread. She was getting after me a little bit for that and wanted me to go find another church, she's currently going to the Assembly of God faith. I then told her I don't like what the Bible says about homosexuals and how that word was added much later, and it's not anything to do with homosexuals. And she didn't like that I said that, and was very off put by me saying it. I thought to myself, I could run back to the LDS church after speaking with her! This makes me think Joseph was off put with the hell fire and damnation of these non-LDS religions.
stemelbow Posted March 2, 2020 Posted March 2, 2020 15 hours ago, Calm said: Tacenda, why aren't you demanding Ann Taves support her claim that there were no plates? Ann Taves didn't say there were no plates. She seems to be saying the plates were likely not ancient. I think that's quite reasonable.
stemelbow Posted March 2, 2020 Posted March 2, 2020 14 hours ago, Tacenda said: I guess I should treat that equally, since I believe Joseph made the plates. But still feel he was driven by what he thought needed to happen because of the lack of belief in the surrounding faiths. A little back story on this, I recently went to Arizona for a getaway. We decided to go see a Giants baseball game, they were there for spring training. We sat by a lady who was from Texas bordering Louisiana, and my husband mentioned he knew the towns around there. She asked why he had visited those towns and I mentioned that it was because he went on an LDS mission. But had to tell her we weren't active at the moment. She then asked if she could be personal and asked why not, I told her because I found information that I wasn't told about in church history and it led me down the rabbit hole. She is a non-LDS Christian, and she was worried I lost my belief in Jesus. I told her it's holding on by a thread. She was getting after me a little bit for that and wanted me to go find another church, she's currently going to the Assembly of God faith. I then told her I don't like what the Bible says about homosexuals and how that word was added much later, and it's not anything to do with homosexuals. And she didn't like that I said that, and was very off put by me saying it. I thought to myself, I could run back to the LDS church after speaking with her! This makes me think Joseph was off put with the hell fire and damnation of these non-LDS religions. Thanks for adding that Tacenda.
Calm Posted March 2, 2020 Posted March 2, 2020 51 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Ann Taves didn't say there were no plates. She seems to be saying the plates were likely not ancient. I think that's quite reasonable. You are correct. My mistake. Thank you for catching it. But the principle stands in that she does not offer any explanation or ‘go here for further reading’ either.
stemelbow Posted March 2, 2020 Posted March 2, 2020 3 minutes ago, Calm said: You are correct. My mistake. Thank you for catching it. But the principle stands in that she does not offer any explanation or ‘go here for further reading’ either. Good point. That doesn't fit well in a trailer.
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2020 Posted March 2, 2020 6 minutes ago, Calm said: You are correct. My mistake. Thank you for catching it. But the principle stands in that she does not offer any explanation or ‘go here for further reading’ either. I agree, but it's just that "are you kidding me?", remark that gave me pause I guess.
Tacenda Posted March 2, 2020 Posted March 2, 2020 57 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Thanks for adding that Tacenda. Thanks Stem, for even reading it lol!
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