When does the Endowment begin?

[Stargazer]

On 12/2/2019 at 4:09 PM, PacMan said:

Endowment means gift. And the gift given is power. Any divine gift of power is an endowment. And the first great gift of power we received were our bodies. 

Yes, sort of.

Power in the priesthood actually derives from righteousness.  That is Heavenly Father's power: he is obeyed because he is perfectly righteous, and that obedience he engenders is his power.  So when he commands a thing, it will be done.  Not that he does it, but that it will be done. Because of obedience.

[Jake Starkey]

On 11/30/2019 at 4:22 PM, DonBradley said:

Seems like partly just a matter of definition, but the first New Testament idea of being endowed with power seems to have referred to the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost; so, arguably on that model the endowment of power would begin with confirmation. 

But it partly just depends on what we choose the word "endowment" to mean.

Don

Yes, Don, I believe you are correct that the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was an endowment.

In modern times, the endowment at Kirtland in 1831 and 1836 were involved with receiving the gift to empower preaching and conversion efforts (1831) and to gain spiritual power to do the Lord's work (1836).  Johnson's "Kirtland, Nauvoo, and Zodiac: A commentary on Early Mormon Temples," in the latest JWHA Journal issue explicates powerfully on early temple and endowment development.  

This was released last week and is the most current and competent and credible group of professional articles on The Order of Ancient Things: Essays on the Mormon Temple.  The authors go from active temple recommend LDS to independent and Restoration historians.

 

http://www.signaturebooks.com/product/the-ancient-order-of-things/?fbclid=IwAR0neX7qW9EVNp3wUyM-_vivUCx9hkiRcbc3klCd09iFKD-3GygO9ZPc1u4

 

 

 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Jake Starkey

[Jake Starkey]

On 12/2/2019 at 12:13 AM, Bernard Gui said:

Maybe it began a very long, long time ago....possibly  from the foundation of the world or even before?

* “First place” = pre-mortal existence?

Maybe so.  An endowment is a set of ordinances, gifting and authorizing power to act godly and for His name.  The creation of the universe certainly would fit into that thinking.

[Ahab]

8 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Yes, sort of.

Power in the priesthood actually derives from righteousness.  That is Heavenly Father's power: he is obeyed because he is perfectly righteous, and that obedience he engenders is his power.  So when he commands a thing, it will be done.  Not that he does it, but that it will be done. Because of obedience.

I believe he is obeyed because of the faith of those who obey his will.  Lots of people who know his will do not do what he tells them to do.  He is obeyed because somebody obeys him.  I want to be counted as one of the people who always does whatever he wants me to do.

[Maidservant]

13 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

Yes, Don, I believe you are correct that the Holy Spirit at Pentecost was an endowment.

In modern times, the endowment at Kirtland in 1831 and 1836 were involved with receiving the gift to empower preaching and conversion efforts (1831) and to gain spiritual power to do the Lord's work (1836).  Johnson's "Kirtland, Nauvoo, and Zodiac: A commentary on Early Mormon Temples," in the latest JWHA Journal issue explicates powerfully on early temple and endowment development.  

This was released last week and is the most current and competent and credible group of professional articles on The Order of Ancient Things: Essays on the Mormon Temple.  The authors go from active temple recommend LDS to independent and Restoration historians.

 

http://www.signaturebooks.com/product/the-ancient-order-of-things/?fbclid=IwAR0neX7qW9EVNp3wUyM-_vivUCx9hkiRcbc3klCd09iFKD-3GygO9ZPc1u4

 

 

 

 

Spectacular that there is a bull on the front. Now why did they choose that particularly to encapsulate it? What is the association?

 

. . . and did you say Zodiac?

[JLHPROF]

12 hours ago, Jake Starkey said:

An endowment is a set of ordinances, gifting and authorizing power to act godly and for His name.  

Interesting definition.

I'd say the endowment is primarily about bringing man into God's presence and teaching him the authorized methods for doing so.

[Jake Starkey]

1 hour ago, Maidservant said:

Spectacular that there is a bull on the front. Now why did they choose that particularly to encapsulate it? What is the association?

 

. . . and did you say Zodiac?

I do not know why the image of the bull was used, but I did find http://www.jewishmag.com/184mag/bull_imagery/bull_imagery.htm for its use in ancient Hebrew religion

Zodiac, Texas on the Pedernales River near present-day Fredericksburg was the name of the village founded by LDS Apostle Lyman Wight in the late 1840s.  The name came from the sign for the Ram.  He was identified by William Clayton as the Wild Ram of the Mountains as were other apostles (Parley Pratt was the Archer, and so forth).

[Jake Starkey]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Interesting definition.

I'd say the endowment is primarily about bringing man into God's presence and teaching him the authorized methods for doing so.

That was certainly part of the development of the endowment by JSJr. in the early 1840s and has continued to our modern day.

[Stargazer]

15 hours ago, Ahab said:

I believe he is obeyed because of the faith of those who obey his will.  Lots of people who know his will do not do what he tells them to do.  He is obeyed because somebody obeys him.  I want to be counted as one of the people who always does whatever he wants me to do.

The entire universe obeys him -- there are only a few who do not, but we are special cases, as we are being auditioned to become His understudies. Thus we are withheld from beholding His full glory (which would cause all of us without exception to obey willingly because of His righteousness -- even Lucifer would do so), so that we may be fully tested.  That's my theory, anyway.

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The entire universe obeys him -- there are only a few who do not, but we are special cases, as we are being auditioned to become His understudies. Thus we are withheld from beholding His full glory (which would cause all of us without exception to obey willingly because of His righteousness -- even Lucifer would do so), so that we may be fully tested.  That's my theory, anyway.

Yeah, I'm not buying into that one.  Satan will always be Satan and he won't ever get to the point where he will start obeying our Father in heaven, doing whatever our Father in heaven tells him to do.  And neither will those who choose to follow Satan rather than following our Father in heaven.  There must needs be opposition in all things, and if there ever wasn't the whole universe would go KABLOOEY!  What universe? You mean there used to be a universe?  What happened to it?  What happened to us?  We're not even here to ask these questions so...

Yeah, no, that just wouldn't work out.  There will never be a time when everyone agrees with each other, whether right or wrong or good or evil, and there will ever be a time when all people will be the same.  We can be either good or evil and however we choose to be we can be that way forever!

[jst]

My opinion is that the Endowment proper (which starts with the pre-mortal council and Creation narrative and ends with our entrance into the Celestial Room) encompasses all other ordinances/covenants as it is a cosmic map or plan. So the initiatory ordinances appear to be handled prior to the Endowment as a matter of function/convenience but arguably are to be perceived within the Endowment ceremony (and in one case is actually referenced during the ceremony at a time when we are to insert them). Arguably, baptism, gift of the Holy Ghost, and priesthood ordination are also represented in the Endowment as well as temple marriage and final sealing. The Endowment is the whole plan from beginning to end, though much of it is "fulfilled" outside the 1.5 hour block of time in which we are given the map: 

When Joseph Smith first administered the Nauvoo temple Endowment on May 4, 1842, he appears to have connected all the orders of the priesthood (and thus their ordinances/covenants) to that event.  Willard Richards recorded the event that was then later edited into the 1838 History of the Church as Joseph Smith’s voice: 
"I spent the day in the upper part of the Store … in Council with [various names], instructing them in the principles and order of the Priesthood, attending  to washings, anointings, endowments and the communication of Keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so on to the highest order of Melchisedec Priesthood, setting forth the order pertaining to the ancient of Days, and all those plans and  principles, by which any one is enabled to secure the fulness of those blessings,  which have been prepared for the Church of the first born, and come up and abide  in the presence of the Eloheim in the Eternal worlds. In this Council was instituted the Ancient order of things for the first time in these last days."

[JLHPROF]

10 hours ago, jst said:

My opinion is that the Endowment proper (which starts with the pre-mortal council and Creation narrative and ends with our entrance into the Celestial Room) 

The endowment has no end.

No closing prayer, no amen, no end.

[topcougar]

On 11/30/2019 at 2:50 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

You are right to think that the endowment begins with the initiatories, except for ordination.  Why?  Because baptism, confirmation, and ordination, are normally public ordinances (exoteric), while the endowment is private (esoteric).  Moreover, women are not ordained, so it is not an integral part of the endowment.

I would consider baptism, confirmation and the sacrament as part of the endowment. These  are the only saving ordinances performed outside the temple. Even though they are public,  I have always considered them as sacred and part of the same covenant  path.  I used to impress on aaronic priesthood  holders that they were performing the most sacred ordinances outside of the temple.   Would you not consider the endowment to be a saving ordinance? It is merely for exaltation? 

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, topcougar said:

I would consider baptism, confirmation and the sacrament as part of the endowment. These  are the only saving ordinances performed outside the temple. Even though they are public,  I have always considered them as sacred and part of the same covenant  path.  I used to impress on aaronic priesthood  holders that they were performing the most sacred ordinances outside of the temple.   Would you not consider the endowment to be a saving ordinance? It is merely for exaltation? 

I carefully differentiated between exoteric and esoteric ordinances.  Ours is a sacramental church to an even greater degree than Roman Catholicism.  However, when we speak of "endowed" members, we are speaking only about esoteric ordinances.  If everything is an endowment, then nothing is an endowment.