Uneven Article Re: Elder Peter M. Johnson

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Of course it is.  What makes you think I thought it wasn't?

I don't know.  I may very well be reading things into what you wrote that aren't there.  I don't really know what you think, except you seem to be very disapproving.  And I don't know why.

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I don't like your statistical analysis.  I don't see it even matching your own stipulations of timing.

When you say you don't like my "statistical analysis", what is it about it that you don't like?  That my numbers are wrong?  Or is it even that I made such an "analysis" on the first place?  

All I was trying to do was to look at the objective issues connected with time frames, opportunities, and actualities -- and perhaps connect them with reasonable allowances as to why it might have take the Lord 41 years to call an American of African descent to be a General Authority, instead of 12 years, 23 years or some other span of time.  So that if someone asks the question, "Why did it take so darned long? Is the Church racist or what?" that I might have reasonable grounds that tend to lead to the answer: "No."

Is that a problem do you think?

 

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Why, do you actually care if I think you are racist?  

Actually, I do care.

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Would my answer change your behaviour in any way?

If I thought it needed changing, sure.  

What behavior is it that you think needs changing? 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Stargazer

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

When you say you don't like my "statistical analysis", what is it about it that you don't like?  That my numbers are wrong

That your conclusion didn't follow.

You gave what I thought were reasonable estimates for age and length of service and then you ignored them in coming up with your end number for a minimum preparation to serve as a GA.  I used the same and came up with 20 less years.  Even if one allows for additional time before being called as EQP as an Elder, say 5 years, that still brings it to 15 years less than your estimate of 'hardly enough time'.

It was the making your conclusion fit the circumstance of 41 years I found problematic.  Better to just drop that line of reasoning imo.

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I don't know if you are racist if by that you mean significantly prejudiced towards other races besides your own.

There are things you have said that could easily be interpreted as racist (chances are there are things I have said that can be), but I don't think enough personal interaction in enough contexts to get a clear reading in most cases is available to judge people based on internet conversations...so I try to avoid making concrete judgments as much as possible, at least publicly because I might change my mind when something else is said, but others might not be aware of my change in judgment and take my older opinion as evidence to criticize someone.

I would suggest a change to everyone if they are speaking about a group of people in a negative way and that is to try applying it to what they see as their own community.  If that feels wrong, then look deeply at why it feels right to describe the other group that way and be detailed in their reasoning when they judge the others in a negative way so those reading them can understand why.  Then even if others disagree with them, the others can address the why rather than make assumptions that may be wrong.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Calm

[gopher]

It's great to finally have an African American member of the Seventy.  I don't blame anyone for being excited about it.  Hopefully it can ease some of the racial tension in the church much the same way the first black president healed the country and ended years of racial discrimination.

I hope the church can continue to attract black members to join the church so we can worship and serve together.  I was at a stake training meeting this week and noticed only one black member in the small group.  He also happens to be the stake president, but still..

[Calm]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

the first black president healed the country and ended years of racial discrimination

Which imo appears to have been not much healing in the long term and certainly there is still racial discrimination going on, though I probably should look up studies that compare attitudes overtime.  It was a milestone, but unfortunately not as significant as many of us hoped I am guessing.

“I hope the church can continue to attract black members to join the church so we can worship and serve together”

Amen

Edited October 13, 2019 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 hours ago, Stargazer said:

But in a discussion of why it took 41 years for an American of African descent to be called to be a General Authority, the fact that the man who was called 41 years afterwards used to be a Muslim is irrelevant to the discussion. If you disagree, please explain why.

The opening post was about a newspaper article that claimed that Elder Johnson 'made history' and wondered about the lack of 'fanfare'. I'm no bean-counter. I trust the Lord to do His own work without mortals imposing their made-up quotas on Him. But I see absolutely no reason not to feel a bit of a thrill when an African-American who is also a former Muslim preaches to the worldwide Church for the first time.

We are all going to see many more such firsts over the coming decades, and each one will, to me, be symbolic of what the Lord is doing around the world. And I'm looking forward to hearing the talk this afternoon!

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 hours ago, blueglass said:

Just to be clear though the Lord was not the source of the black priesthood/temple ban doctrines or policy.  It was a catastrophic mistake.

A personal opinion you're certainly welcome to hold.

[Stargazer]

6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The opening post was about a newspaper article that claimed that Elder Johnson 'made history' and wondered about the lack of 'fanfare'. I'm no bean-counter. I trust the Lord to do His own work without mortals imposing their made-up quotas on Him. But I see absolutely no reason not to feel a bit of a thrill when an African-American who is also a former Muslim preaches to the worldwide Church for the first time.

We are all going to see many more such firsts over the coming decades, and each one will, to me, be symbolic of what the Lord is doing around the world. And I'm looking forward to hearing the talk this afternoon!

I see what you're saying and agree completely. 

But I wasn't aware that he is a former Muslim until that post that I responded to, indicating that this was irrelevant to what I had remarked upon. And his former faith was irrelevant to my remark -- it had nothing to do with it.  

 

[nuclearfuels]

On 10/9/2019 at 1:14 PM, smac97 said:

Actually, I think the lack of fanfare was notable.

This.