Jake Starkey Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 I am talking about your approach, Contributor, not mine, so I won't accept your question reverse approach to dodge the issue. I will leave you with the challenge to approach the Lord thoughtfully in prayer.
Anonymous Mormon Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 13 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said: Thank you. You don't get that God is telling you about love in scripture, tradition, and sermons, and it skips right over your head. The proclamation was not godly. End of subject. Honestly, your statement that "The proclamation was not Godly" really doesn't end any subject in my mind but begins it. What exactly is not Godly about the Proclamation on the Family? 1
Anonymous Mormon Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 14 hours ago, Jake Starkey said: Look instead at the two most responsible for the original proclamation. Those holding the the leaders up to the mirror are the alphas of this generation, they are the alphas who unflinchingly and without hesitation hold their leaders to the mark, to accountability before mankind. If the alphas fail to influence the FP to do right, the sin is not on the watchmen and women. They are doing their job, and they won't quit. Also, I am really curious about this statement. Who are the two responsible for the original proclamation? I would think that President Hinckley would be one of those responsible, but I am guessing you are not talking about him as one of these two? And who are the 'leaders', the 'alphas,' and the 'watchment and women' in your statement above. It all was really quite cryptic, but it piqued my interest so I was hoping you would give more detail on what you are even talking about in the statement above?
smac97 Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 20 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said: The proclamation was not godly. End of subject. The proclamation was profoundly "godly." End of subject. There. One unsubstantiated assertion met with another. The difference is that I think mine is eminently defensible. I don't think yours is. Thanks, -Smac 2
Jake Starkey Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) Not at all, smac97, and thank you for admitting your assertion is unsubstantiated. When children are subjected to unrighteous dominion in the name of God, the proof is all for there to see. Resistance to admitting the original error of the proclamation is unutterably sad, the willingness to put slavish obedience before one's duty to love thy neighbor, which was the message of the proclamation. As one true believer in Mormonism said, "This is the worst PR mistake in our generation." It certainly was and the stumbling to correct it since then has been pitiful. Edited September 30, 2019 by Jake Starkey
CV75 Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jake Starkey said: I am talking about your approach, Contributor, not mine, so I won't accept your question reverse approach to dodge the issue. I will leave you with the challenge to approach the Lord thoughtfully in prayer. You are the 3rd person in a row who has not wanted to describe his approach to prayer vis-a-vis the policy. Edited September 30, 2019 by CV75 2
Jake Starkey Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 CV75, you wish to quibble about methodology instead of concentrating on learning from the Lord about the policy. Concentrate on that.
CV75 Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said: CV75, you wish to quibble about methodology instead of concentrating on learning from the Lord about the policy. Concentrate on that. But by bringing up pondering and praying, you indicated a system for learning from the Lord. So I asked you to describe that process a bit further.
rockpond Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 36 minutes ago, CV75 said: You are the 3rd person in a row who has not wanted to describe his approach to prayer vis-a-vis the policy. The level of detail you seem to be requesting is a little too personal for this format (IMO).
Jake Starkey Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 22 minutes ago, CV75 said: But by bringing up pondering and praying, you indicated a system for learning from the Lord. So I asked you to describe that process a bit further. You know the system so you deflect from the problem by talking about a system you already understand. That's called hypocrisy.
CV75 Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, rockpond said: The level of detail you seem to be requesting is a little too personal for this format (IMO). I am looking for no more detail than the principles I laid out in earlier posts. Nothing personal needs to be shared since we're talking approach and methodology, not the personal experiences that resulted from them. 1
CV75 Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said: You know the system so you deflect from the problem by talking about a system you already understand. That's called hypocrisy. I know my system, which I shared in earlier posts, but not yours. 1
rockpond Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 3 minutes ago, CV75 said: I am looking for no more detail than the principles I laid out in earlier posts. Nothing personal needs to be shared since we're talking approach and methodology, not the personal experiences that resulted from them. Study, ponder, pray. Now you know my approach.
CV75 Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, rockpond said: Study, ponder, pray. Now you know my approach. After you studied and pondered the policy, what did you conclude and pray for, and how was your petition framed? Edited September 30, 2019 by CV75
Jake Starkey Posted September 30, 2019 Posted September 30, 2019 How Rockpond or I did it is not the point. The point is that you must do it, CV75. This will help. Romans 8:26 King James Version (KJV) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
CV75 Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 2 hours ago, Jake Starkey said: How Rockpond or I did it is not the point. The point is that you must do it, CV75. This will help. Romans 8:26 King James Version (KJV) Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. You'll need to help me understand how the Spirit inspired and helped you to know what to pray about with regards to the policy. What petition was formulated in your mind? 1
rockpond Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 1 hour ago, CV75 said: You'll need to help me understand how the Spirit inspired and helped you to know what to pray about with regards to the policy. What petition was formulated in your mind? Why? If I explain it, then you’ll believe the answer I received over what the Spirit whispers to you? Sorry, aside from being overly personal, this seems pointless. 1
california boy Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 6 hours ago, CV75 said: You'll need to help me understand how the Spirit inspired and helped you to know what to pray about with regards to the policy. What petition was formulated in your mind? For a lot of people, the Spirit roared that barring minor children or anyone else for that matter from being baptized was against very basic principles of the Saviors teachings. And they didn't buy the whole, less conflict in the home defense the Church put up. Claiming the policy caused less conflict given the mountain of evidence against that does not support the Church's defense. The policy ended up being wrong. Church leaders made an adjustment back to the way things were with local bishops and parents reviewing the possible difficulties and coming to a consensus on what is best for their child. I honestly don't understand why you or any other member can't believe that the Spirit would prompt against such a policy. One that evidently Church leaders felt strong enough to abandon. The question I would like to ask you is "How is it possible the Spirit prompted you to support a policy that barred minor children from being baptized? How could the Spirit prompt you that this policy would indeed cause less conflict in the home?" Can you help me understand the Spirit inspiring you to embrace such a policy? 2
Jake Starkey Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 14 hours ago, CV75 said: You'll need to help me understand how the Spirit inspired and helped you to know what to pray about with regards to the policy. What petition was formulated in your mind? No, it is for you to let the Spirit inspire and help you to know what and how to pray with regards to the policy. It is time for you to step up to taking meat instead of milk. The Spirit will guide you if you but permit it. Do not question other posters' faithfulness/righteousness/worthiness.
CV75 Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 (edited) 11 hours ago, rockpond said: Why? If I explain it, then you’ll believe the answer I received over what the Spirit whispers to you? Sorry, aside from being overly personal, this seems pointless. I will certainly believe your answer about how you went about asking God about the policy (it is not a question about how you were answered). This is no more personal than what I've offered about the process (I've to summarize the basic elements below based on Alma 32, Moroni 10, and General Conference talks). I think it is very helpful to discuss the method people follow in finding spiritual answers (in this case, concerning the policy through prayer). Identify what is taught and testified by the prophets (in this case, the policy), or the subject of prayer. Settle upon a predisposition or bias on the subject by prayerfully seeking the Spirit to guide us in our study, pondering, developing and deciding upon a proposition and cultivating a desire to believe (or faith, or hope) in the subject of prayer. Pray with real intent, or with faith in getting a confirmation and a willingness to act on the confirmation. Being open to the Spirit's confirmation, which can come as an affirmative thought or feeling; no answer at all, meaning an answer if not expedient for now; a stupor of thought. We may feel comfort and peace with the results, or resistance to them. I'm not asking you to be any more personal than to describe what you did in terms of these principles, or if there were additional principles you applied. @Jake Starkey, I extend the same invitation to you. Edited October 1, 2019 by CV75 2
CV75 Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 5 hours ago, california boy said: For a lot of people, the Spirit roared that barring minor children or anyone else for that matter from being baptized was against very basic principles of the Saviors teachings. And they didn't buy the whole, less conflict in the home defense the Church put up. Claiming the policy caused less conflict given the mountain of evidence against that does not support the Church's defense. The policy ended up being wrong. Church leaders made an adjustment back to the way things were with local bishops and parents reviewing the possible difficulties and coming to a consensus on what is best for their child. I honestly don't understand why you or any other member can't believe that the Spirit would prompt against such a policy. One that evidently Church leaders felt strong enough to abandon. The question I would like to ask you is "How is it possible the Spirit prompted you to support a policy that barred minor children from being baptized? How could the Spirit prompt you that this policy would indeed cause less conflict in the home?" Can you help me understand the Spirit inspiring you to embrace such a policy? So you are saying the Spirit can roar without anyone having to pray about the policy. That certainly simplifies things! I suppose others heard a still, small voice. And yes, bias plays a big role bias (and I’m not saying that bias is inherently a bad thing, but necessary for developing a stance upon which to pray upon a subject). But many say that they received answers to prayer after studying and pondering the policy, and this is what interests me in light of Church teachings on seeking the truth of a matter specifically through prayer. I am not asking anyone to defend their conclusions, just describe their approach when it involved prayer and a resulting testimony. I’d be happy to address your questions, even though I never made such statements. I see promptings of the Spirit as a different process that needn't involve prayer, which is what I am focusing on, at least for now.
Jake Starkey Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 CV75 will not answer, "The question I would like to ask you is "How is it possible the Spirit prompted you to support a policy that barred minor children from being baptized? How could the Spirit prompt you that this policy would indeed cause less conflict in the home?"
CV75 Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 12 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said: CV75 will not answer, "The question I would like to ask you is "How is it possible the Spirit prompted you to support a policy that barred minor children from being baptized? How could the Spirit prompt you that this policy would indeed cause less conflict in the home?" As I said, I see promptings of the Spirit as a different process that needn't involve prayer, and it is the prayer processis what I am focusing on. I didn't post a claim that the Spirit prompted me on the policy. My questions concern teh process and role of prayer in the actual statements others posted. That is all I am interested in discussing, so feel free to ask questions concerning actual statements I posted.
stemelbow Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 An appeal to God through prayer does not provide any more a resolution to a question than an appeal to the Bible, BoM, or any other text we might stumble upon. The issue always arises that answers coming through the channels as a result of prayer are contradictory for different people. We have to go with our individual compass, I suppose. I'm not sure that's any different than people making decisions based on gut, data, or anti-gut. I don't think we get to the bottom of a truth of a proposition by saying "well I prayed about it and I've decided". We simply leave more discussion to be had on the matter.
longview Posted October 1, 2019 Posted October 1, 2019 34 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said: CV75 will not answer, "The question I would like to ask you is "How is it possible the Spirit prompted you to support a policy that barred minor children from being baptized? How could the Spirit prompt you that this policy would indeed cause less conflict in the home?" Not answering for CV75 but I believe it is eminently reasonable for the leadership to try to: 1- minimize confusion for the little ones; 2- carefully consider the dispositions of the "guardians"; 3- identify areas for potential conflicts; 4- make sure there are no misunderstandings of (or opposition to) the Proclamation on the Family; 5- clarify perceptions on "lifestyle choices" by all who are in the "family circle". Adjustments are ongoing (just as Joseph Smith had with new revelations). Qualifications for baptism are pretty straightforward: accepting all the basic doctrines in the Gospel and accepting God's purposes. Excommunications are made with the same guidelines in mind: "separation" is needed, NOT because the excommunicant is to be shunned or punished but to "protect" the church from being associated with apostasy and to help with the repentance process. 1
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